or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 19

post #541 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So tell me how lifting the ski off the show DOESN'T compromise balance? How am I wrong there?
There are times when lifting the ski off the snow is used for a lightning fast release (as in slalom courses). I do not agree with the idea that balance is compromised as I can ski on one ski and be balanced very well. However, you could make the point that stability has been reduced since the base is now smaller. The interesting thing is that you only really need a wider stable base in situations where balance skills are low or when balance is can not be established on a single ski.
post #542 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Well, in your infinite wisdom would you care to explain it to me since as you've pointed out I'm only a level II?

EDIT: I was being sarcastic and backbiting above, but now that I've had a minute to cool down the above post by VS really serves to make a good point. If you guys were truly interested in a conversation, and not simply shouting me down, I wouldn't have had to ask for an explanation as to where "I was wrong". It would have been provided. Wigs or Bob Barnes would have done that. Guys, your short responses speak volumes.....
Here's the deal: some of us work. It takes time to explain things, but you weren't originally asking, anyway, you were telling the "young pup" that he was doing something wrong without understanding the context of the stills you were linking to. Go watch some shallow sections of GS, there's a tidbit...
post #543 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Lonnie, thanks for taking the time to grab those shots. They fit in well with my pictures are worth a thousand words idea.

As I mentioned in earlier posts I had a few areas of my skiing that I was working on. In a very early post I mentioned that I was trying to use as much range of movement as I could when flexing my legs to release a turn. I think your pictures have captured that perfectly and I'm very pleased with what I see. Now if I could move that range of motion into my bump skiing and when I'm skiing SL gates I'd be ripping.
Max, I am sure Harald has gone over this with you, but you want to be careful not to take the flexing so far that your transitions become static or you are putting yourself in the backseat (non-advantageous to move into the next turn). I realize this is something you were trying to exaggerrate, but in a few of the shots your body is quite crunched up (hunched over in order to stay forward).

I bet that amount of flexion would help your bump skiing if you were to make your carved turns more quickly (SL-ish). that would give you an idea of how fast you have to flex in order to use those movements in bumps which is undoubtedly a faster paced environment. Maybe a focus on how fast you can flex, versus the amount of flexion you are getting would be a good movement to take note of? In slalom gates however, being over flexed can sometimes be as detrimental as not being flexed at all through the transition.

Later

GREG
post #544 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
No, it's called extending the legs to be more effecient in managing pressure at the end of the turn. If we're overflexed, we don't have that ability to the maximum extent we could (we don't have the full range of motion.)
If you are flexed as much as possible (lets say 90 degrees at the knees) how does this limit the ability to extend your legs through the turn? It seems like you have a huge range of motion from 90 degrees to fully extended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
I would also offer that max's boots might be too stiff, if he's having to break at the wasit to pressure the ski rather than flexing the ankles...
The boots are Nordica Doberman 130. Maybe a hair too soft. Note the angle of the tibia and the location of my knees.

post #545 of 1165
Yes Max, lifting the ski off the ground compromises stability, not balance.

If you've checked out the DavidM stuff in the supporter section, I argue intensely that a 0/100 weight distribution from inside to outside ski will optimize outside foot function.

In revisiting that topic, it's become clear that maintaining 0/100 distribution through the turn is not necessary. What is necessary is enough pressure to activate the construction of the vault of the forefoot.

Momentarily lifting the inside ski can do this if you are balanced on the sole of your foot, have completely transferred you weight ( as 0/100 is briefly established), are not using the boot cuff as a support structure, and the weight shift is forward and diagonally onto the new stance foot ( to ball of foot and from LTE to BTE).

[Note that I say complete weight transfer, though others may say complete transfer of the balance point.]

Overflexing at transition can slow the construction of the vault as the location of the balance point will not yet have moved forwards.
post #546 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Well, in your infinite wisdom would you care to explain it to me since as you've pointed out I'm only a level II?

EDIT: I was being sarcastic and backbiting above, but now that I've had a minute to cool down the above post by VS really serves to make a good point. If you guys were truly interested in a conversation, and not simply shouting me down, I wouldn't have had to ask for an explanation as to where "I was wrong". It would have been provided. Wigs or Bob Barnes would have done that. Guys, your short responses speak volumes.....

He's flexing to release and this does not preclude pressure management at any part of the turn let alone the end of the turn.
post #547 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
That could be a fair enough statement, Vocalskier. However, you don't practice what you preach!

Why do you attempt to discredit by calling out others for video, credentials, and experience, yet insist they are meaningless when asked to reciprocate??
Au contraire! In the case of Lonnie, he was chastising a former D-team member on his class handling skills. Regardless of whether or not you agree with PMTS or not I can guarantee you that skiing with a personality like Harb is an exciting and fun experience and I doubt he needs pointers from Lonnie.
post #548 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
There are times when lifting the ski off the snow is used for a lightning fast release (as in slalom courses). I do not agree with the idea that balance is compromised as I can ski on one ski and be balanced very well. However, you could make the point that stability has been reduced since the base is now smaller. The interesting thing is that you only really need a wider stable base in situations where balance skills are low or when balance is can not be established on a single ski.
Right on. The forces generated in the turn play one of the most significant roles in how the skier can most effectively balance. When in a performance turning situation (ex. slalom) the most effective balance point will be on the outside ski. Slightly lifting the inside ski vertically can do a number of things from tightening the radius to releasing the turn as Max said - as long as the skier remains balanced as that movement happens (take into consideration counter balance/angulation, counter rotation, and fore-aft balance).

Later

GREG
post #549 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
Max, I am sure Harald has gone over this with you, but you want to be careful not to take the flexing so far that your transitions become static or you are putting yourself in the backseat (non-advantageous to move into the next turn). I realize this is something you were trying to exaggerrate, but in a few of the shots your body is quite crunched up (hunched over in order to stay forward).
Thanks for the tip. At this point its not a serious issue for my SL skiing because I'm not flexing nearly enough in the course. I actually get static with lack of flex when I have those gates rushing at me.

I hate that hunched over look so darn much. The question is it habitual or a balance adjustment as used by Marlies Schild below.

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2...2006-sl-2.html

This snippet looks ok to me.

post #550 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This snippet looks ok to me.

Agreed. I see no fault in that transition at all. Nice looking.
post #551 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I hate that hunched over look so darn much. The question is it habitual or a balance adjustment as used by Marlies Schild below.

http://ronlemaster.com/images/2006-2...2006-sl-2.html
My guess would be both. Over flexing can cause you to hunch forward in order to keep your balance forward on the skis... so it is probably a cause-effect relationship. As I said before, working on the quickness/speed with which you can flex versus how much might make the movement more natural for you. See what Harald thinks... for example when you see him ski he can flex and release the turn on a whim, but does not over-do it.

Later

GREG
post #552 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
You're overflexed (I'm being serious.....)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
No, it's called extending the legs to be more effecient in managing pressure at the end of the turn. If we're overflexed, we don't have that ability to the maximum extent we could (we don't have the full range of motion.)
With video we can take a look at the whole turn to see if a theory is correct. I'm too lazy to grab more stills but if you watch the video you'll see a nice extension after the flex. Not sure how you are coming to the conclusion that the flex is somehow limiting the ability to extend. WC racers demonstrate large amounts of flex all the time and they get from highly flexed to extended in a split second.

I asked Harald Harb about this. His feeling is that with the speed and the dynamics demonstrated in these turns, and with this much ski bend and angle, the forces (which he feels are building beautifully) need the flexion shown to be able to redirect the energy. The real issue is can you get back up in time to be over them for the next arc.
post #553 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
....with the speed and the dynamics demonstrated in these turns, and with this much ski bend and angle, the forces (which he feels are building beautifully) need the flexion shown to be able to redirect the energy. The real issue is can you get back up in time to be over them for the next arc.
What is full extension? I cannot extend my legg completely since my boots are tilted forwards. I also need to save a bit of flexion to be able to extend if necessary. If you extend too far too soon you are blocking yourselfe. Take a look at me, sorry, my fellow countryman in the gates for proper WC technique:

http://www.youcanski.com/photo/palander_lg.jpg
post #554 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What is full extension?
Full extension and the proper timing is covered nicely in Essentials of Skiing. I can add some detail later when I have some time.
post #555 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What is full extension? I cannot extend my legg completely since my boots are tilted forwards. I also need to save a bit of flexion to be able to extend if necessary. If you extend too far too soon you are blocking yourselfe. Take a look at me, sorry, my fellow countryman in the gates for proper WC technique:

http://www.youcanski.com/photo/palander_lg.jpg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Lm2lrCxuO0 good YouTube link to make it Epic, complete with poor balance caused by lifting the inside ski.
post #556 of 1165
Max, Greg is providing valuable feedback on the "over-doing it". It should happen, not be forced. High speed and the associated high forces should drive the retraction, not you. When you allow the forces to drive the process it will happen faster and more naturally then the slow/forced flexion/extension process I've seen in your video clips.

There's no time for that slow/exaggerated/forced variety of flexion in a race course,,, that's why it disappears when you get in the sticks,,, just no time for it there, ain't gunna happen, and seldom needed to that extreme degree anyway. Check out your WC montages again. You will see that hips do not take a lateral voyage from apex to apex during retraction transitions in slalom, they semi-pendulum, as the knees generally don't flex down to 90 degrees, and very seldom beyond, as you display in your video clips.

I understand you are in the process of trying to learn and embed the retraction movement pattern in your skiing, and as such exaggeration drilling can be a valuable tool. But don't expect that exaggerated movement pattern, and feel it provides, to follow you into a race course. You can get away with it in the freeski environment, but there's just no time for that extra forced flexion and extension movement in a slalom course. In the gates you have to amp up your retraction skills to a higher form. A force driven form. You need to disengage the manual override and let the forces power and dictate the nature of the process. Things happen much faster this way, and much more efficiently. Let the force be with you young Jedi.
post #557 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
...that's why it disappears when you get in the sticks,,, just no time for it there, ain't gunna happen...
Thanks for the tips. I'm working on speeding it up and improving my reactions, that's why I'm going to HH's PMTS race camp at Mt Hood in June.
post #558 of 1165
Max, would you clarify something for me about PMTS?

Are retraction transitions (and understand, I consider a retraction transition one in which the legs flex as needed to create lightness/float in both feet until after neutral) the bread and butter default transition of the system? How much do you guys use transitions with pressure transfer and maintainance to/on the new outside ski before neutral when freeskiing?
post #559 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Au contraire! In the case of Lonnie, he was chastising a former D-team member on his class handling skills. Regardless of whether or not you agree with PMTS or not I can guarantee you that skiing with a personality like Harb is an exciting and fun experience and I doubt he needs pointers from Lonnie.
I think what I was saying was, that based on the lesson segment I observed, that former demo team member or not, I didn't think that the teaching style of the teacher would mesh with MY learning style. I'm sure that there are others that would love it, but it didn't seem to be for ME....
post #560 of 1165

With both feet solidly planted in the sand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Au contraire! In the case of Lonnie, he was chastising a former D-team member on his class handling skills. Regardless of whether or not you agree with PMTS or not I can guarantee you that skiing with a personality like Harb is an exciting and fun experience and I doubt he needs pointers from Lonnie.
Volklskier, I think you are confused!

Au contraire, what???

It is YOUR position that credentials are meaningless, which would be precisely why Lonnie should be able to present his beliefs about HH's class handling skills on their own merits, regardless of his credentials. Yet, you called him out for his credentials!

It is YOUR position that credentials are meaningless, however, you are citing HH's credentials as rational for calling Lonnie on his?????

It gets better! You've clearly explained (yet, again) your belief that PSIA is full of unqualified suck-ups, then cite HH's credentials as a PSIA D-Teamer. Your model basically says he must have been an unqualified suck-up to get there, right?

In any event, I was not strictly referring to your encounter with Lonnie in this thread. More so to the repeated history where you call out others for their experience, credentials, and video. Then when asked to reciprocate you always fall back to them being meaningless.

Many have expressed their satisfaction with the experiences they've had with Harold, I have no reason to believe otherwise. What has that got to do with your dual standard concerning the meaningfulness of credentials?

I've prominently displayed my credentials below. Again, what are yours?

Best,

Chris
post #561 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Volklskier, I think you are confused!


I've prominently displayed my credentials below. Again, what are yours?

Best,

Chris
You forgot "boring"
post #562 of 1165
Damn Volks you're firing tonite. But back to the discussion of his flexion and crouch.

Isn't his flexion coming at the end of his turn as he prepares to change his edges? In a higher energy turn the forces would possibly need such flexion and an equal degree of extension to keep in control.
His crouch might be something he is working to improve but unless a snapshot has context it isn't telling us much.
A MA is a quest for opinions and it seems Max found a few. I hope some help .
post #563 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Damn Volks you're firing tonite. But back to the discussion of his flexion and crouch.

Isn't his flexion coming at the end of his turn as he prepares to change his edges? In a higher energy turn the forces would possibly need such flexion and an equal degree of extension to keep in control.
His crouch might be something he is working to improve but unless a snapshot has context it isn't telling us much.
A MA is a quest for opinions and it seems Max found a few. I hope some help .
You can flex to absorb pressure, you can also flex to tighten a turn shape. There is a really good pic of Max flexing to release. The great thing about this is that it allows for very early edge engagement. This is very different in sensation and effect than extending. If this cocnept is not understood or as you suggest if you don't look at the context then you can completely misunderstand what is happening as Lonnie did.
post #564 of 1165
VocalSkier- (misspelling is intentional!)

You are what is boring. Your constant stream of put downs, half baked thoughts and innuendoes. What do you actually contribute to this discussion? I'll back up cgeib- if you are so damned! unhappy with PSIA- get out!

Time for you to put up or shut up.

Since you have posted no verifiable credentials, why should your opinion be worth any more than some of the other non-instrs on this site? In fact, many of them have asked (and hopefully received answers to) some interesting questions.

Let's face it- your street cred is 0! And therefore, thats about what your opinion is worth (to me).....
post #565 of 1165
For what it's worth, my non-ski instructor wife with no dog in this fight, (but who has an extensive racing background including racing at USSA nationals 3 years, and for what it's worth a pretty good MA eye) just watched the video. I asked her, "What's this guy doing? Her reply, "He's all scrunched up. He's not exending." I stand by my original statements....
post #566 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
VocalSkier- (misspelling is intentional!)
Did you copy and paste that? It was already used by a member of the PSIA mob. But then the rest of your post is just as unoriginal.

I'll say it again reeeaaallll slllooooowwww so you can get it. Harb has verifiable credentials and at this point multiple video clips posted. He also achieved the highest level that PSIA has. I didn't think we needed to listen to a cheap shot on his class handling skills.

As for credentials, they are meaningless here and in the real world. At least that's what Bob Barnes says. You're an examiner? So what. I also have no intention of shutting up although that seems to be the modus operandi around here. Shout down anyone who goes against the little group here. Well I dont mind shouting back and calling BS on much of what goes down here.

As for my opinion, it's not more valuable than anyone elses. The one thing about this thread is that it has proved that many "instructors" have no idea what they are talking about and that a realtively new skier has a better understanding of skiing than they do. I'd say that says a lot about his teacher.

If you're interested in what was being discussed in this thread I suggest that instead you chastise some of your PSIA buddies for being the ones who initially brought a negative tone to it.
post #567 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
For what it's worth, my non-ski instructor wife with no dog in this fight, (but who has an extensive racing background including racing at USSA nationals 3 years, and for what it's worth a pretty good MA eye) just watched the video. I asked her, "What's this guy doing? Her reply, "He's all scrunched up. He's not exending." I stand by my original statements....
Lonnie:

Your wife is handing you a shovel. The frames you pulled are of Max at release. He doesn't have to extend to release. When you extend to start a turn all you are doing is pressure control. You are unweighting the skis. When you unweight guess what happens you get light, you then turn the skis using active rotary movements. This often results in skidding. In PMTS you flex to release and therefore are able to get to new edges quicker then you extend the new stance leg but not until you are actually on those new edges. Thats what ends up giving you those nice angles.

The photos actually show MAx executing pretty well.
post #568 of 1165
>>>More so to the repeated history where you call out others for their experience, credentials, and video. Then when asked to reciprocate you always fall back to them being meaningless.<<<

Chris. lay off the guy, maybe videos of him would be truly meaningless, let him be the judge.

....Ott
post #569 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
why should your opinion be worth any more than some of the other non-instrs on this site?
Interesting quote .Only opinions from your personal definition of qualified instructors are worthy of respect? Somewhat elitist don't you think? But in the context of technical discussions expertise would matter.
This all seems to boil down to ego and having our opinions reinforced by public opinion.
I think we learn more from diverse opinions and the discussion of those opinions than the status quo.
Vailsnopro you get respect here and post your opinions . Volksskier has given us glimpses of his history and acquaintances and they certainly know who he is
.Why does he get under your skin so easily?

How does any of this pertain to the subject matter of the thread header?
post #570 of 1165
I don't have any J├Ągermeister, Ott! Guess I'll settle for the Fat Tire that made it back from CO with me

Best,

Chris
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video