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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 17

post #481 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I have also noticed a surprisingly high number of thinkers in the PMTS camps.
This is just really more of a result of what naturally happens as skill level increases. There is more of a desire to understand what is behind the movements because there is an actual ability to change them.
post #482 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
This is just really more of a result of what naturally happens as skill level increases. There is more of a desire to understand what is behind the movements because there is an actual ability to change them.
And I won't disagree with that. But I think that there is also a level beyond "simple" conscious understanding and performing the maneuvers. I think there is a level where skiing becomes UN-conscious, a zone where it's automatic (in reality I think that zone exists for all of us at some level weather it's the bunny hill or Corberts Couloir...) If you're having to think the movements, and trying to process what move to make, it's too slow for REALLY high level skiing. If you've ever watched truly high level skiers, you know what I mean. Things just happen. It's Magic. Do you think Harbs thinking when he's skiing? (I don't). I think it 2nd nature to him...

This is why I'm trying to stop being a thinker and trying to become a feeler....

EDIT: AND to take this thread back on track this is why SR turns are so hard. It's the time it takes us to do them. If we think about them, were done. I can think about specific movements all day long when I'm demoing Medium Radius turns. They are really quite slow. But for Short radius, nope. I once heard an examiner (one that coaches WC racers on the side) say SL is easy, you have a whole 0.7 of a second to make a turn...

But what do I know, I'm only a level II....
post #483 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
And my smart alec comment was a response to your suggestion that the fact that HH/Diana are busy instructing all season long is an indisputable indication of how well the system works...All that your claim "proves" is that some percentage of HH's customers are happy with the product. That's a wonderful thing. It's hardly exclusive, however.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said or even implied that this was exclusive.

The last I heard, 70% of students returned to camps and nearly 100% of privates returned. I have no idea what the industry average is, but those figures sound pretty good to me. Are those figures proof that PMTS instructors know how to teach? Combined with the level of skiing I have seen at camps, yeah, I think so.

I just don't understand why people imply that there is something lacking with the system when the results suggest its quite successful.

To clarify, I'm not saying this is exclusive. I'm only talking about PMTS here (after, that's what this thread is about). If you want to talk about how great the instructors are at JH, Alta, or area XYZ, please do it in another thread.
post #484 of 1165
I have followed this thread fairly carefully though not post by post and have a clarifying question. Are any of the contributors to this thread PMTS instructors? I have a couple of Mr. Harb's books, including his newest one, and just wondered if anyone on this thread is a PMTS instructor. Thank you!
post #485 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarCube View Post
Are any of the contributors to this thread PMTS instructors?
I don't think so. But if you have a question about any of the material I'll try to answer it for you.
post #486 of 1165
I'm with Lonnie here. The whole point of practice is to drill movements into muscle memory, so they are a "subroutine" your conscious mind can call without going into the details.

For those of us who are "thinkers" it is a lot easier to do this if we have a consistent mental model to keep our brain happy and quiet. If you don't have time to think in short turns, you really don't have time to change your mind!

On the other hand, note that I said "consistent" not "correct". A somewhat inaccurate model can serve the same purpose of keeping the brain happy. And minor inaccuracies get "tuned away" as the feedback loop gets adjusted, so long as they are constant.

Hmmm - now that I think about it in a control theory way, all you need is observability and controllability -- accuracy doesnt matter!
post #487 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
...all you need is observability and controllability -- accuracy doesnt matter!
So I'm going to press you here. What is (in your mind) the difference between controllability and accuracy?
post #488 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
To clarify, I'm not saying this is exclusive. I'm only talking about PMTS here (after, that's what this thread is about). If you want to talk about how great the instructors are at JH, Alta, or area XYZ, please do it in another thread.
Why? This isn't the PMTS board and we shouldn't be limited by the constraints of that board. That dog won't hunt here. If you want to only talk about PMTS, great. I'm free to talk about other stuff so long as I feel it's related and it's not offensive....

If you want exclusivity, you can go to that other site. While you are posting here, house rules.
post #489 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So you're saying HH has developed a Niche market in his camps???
Quite possibly. I imagine from my own experience that Harald's view of traditional instruction appeals to thinkers who are frustrated with a lack of explanation from instructors who don't know much theory themselves. There must be a decent number of such people, as thinkers are quite rare in the population as a whole, and so present an unusual situation to instructors.

Ski camps are a pretty niche market anyway, and each one needs a unique selling point of some kind. As my girlfriend said the other day when I suggested she might enjoy the green/light blue camp "it seems like an awful lot of money to spend on a passtime" :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
If I'm doing my job (which some folks here apparently think I don't know jack about), I'm teaching to ALL learning styles simultaneously during the course of a lesson (I teach mainly groups but I think this works for privates too). I'm hitting the visual, the doing, the technical, the feeling, all of it, and emphasizing the critical one at the RIGHT TIME (which I think is key). It can be quite the juggling act at times, but hey, my it's my job. If I can get somebody to see something in my skiing, and then do it in their own skiing, and the FEEL it and finally understand the why (they might need a 30 sec explination or they might need a longer one), ski teaching is easy.
That sounds to me like a model for good instruction, very like my limited experience of PMTS coaching. One of the sad things about this whole ongoing PMTS v the world conversation is that to some extent we're talking past each other. Instructors who post on Epic are not usually the people I see out there trying to teach bemused students in braking wedges to rotate their legs, and the PMTS students who post here are not the arrogant frustrated novices some people assume we are.
post #490 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
That sounds to me like a model for good instruction, very like my limited experience of PMTS coaching. One of the sad things about this whole ongoing PMTS v the world conversation is that to some extent we're talking past each other. Instructors who post on Epic are not usually the people I see out there trying to teach bemused students in braking wedges to rotate their legs, and the PMTS students who post here are not the arrogant frustrated novices some people assume we are.
Ahh, don't listen to me, I'm only a level II....
post #491 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Ahh, don't listen to me, I'm only a level II....
That's as may be, but I'd take a lesson from you.
post #492 of 1165

My geekiest post to date

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So I'm going to press you here. What is (in your mind) the difference between controllability and accuracy?
I'm being a little facetious here, but I do think that small inaccuracies get washed out in the practic loop: try something; observe results; try something a little different; observe.... repeat till convergence. (It ties in with the perception vs reality differences ssh has discussed on occaision.)

So I may think I'm doing thing A to get the results I want, but I'm really doing B. I tweak to improve results, thinking I'm doing A1, but really doing B1, and so on. Eventually, say on A235, I get the results I want, but I'm really doing B235. Now I'm set. To get the same results again, I just have to try to do thing A235 again - I will acually do B235, and get the results I want.

Controllability is a technical term in control theory -- it means that the full range of desired outcomes (dynamic, not just static) can be created from the range of available control inputs.

Observability is the flip side, meaning that the full range of system states (again, dynamic) can be distinguished from each other using the set of available sensors.

One of the techniques for designing a control system is "model based control" where the controller incorporates a mathematical model of the system. It turns out that in many cases, a pretty crude internal model can give acceptable results.

To make the example concrete - suppose I consistently overestimate how much I have my ankle flexed. If the optimal amount is X at some point, I'll find my turns work better if I flex it by one-and-one-half X (because in reality, it is only flexing by X).
post #493 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The last I heard, 70% of students returned to camps and nearly 100% of privates returned. I have no idea what the industry average is, but those figures sound pretty good to me. Are those figures proof that PMTS instructors know how to teach? Combined with the level of skiing I have seen at camps, yeah, I think so.

I just don't understand why people imply that there is something lacking with the system when the results suggest its quite successful.
Ques Max.....does PMTS hold first day (never skied before) beginner classes?

If so, do you know the return rate?
post #494 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Ques Max.....does PMTS hold first day (never skied before) beginner classes?
Yes. There are green/light blue camps that include a never-ever group. I assume that the (few) PMTS resort ski schools also offer never-ever classes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
If so, do you know the return rate?
I don't know, but the overall return rate for the camps is reported to be around 70%.
post #495 of 1165
I'll bet 70% is pretty typical for camps as a whole (PMTS, ESA, Steep and Deep, Str8Line, NASTC).
They are self-selected groups -- if they got what they expected, most of them will be happy and want to return.
post #496 of 1165
sidenote, this just in......(ah....I see Mr. Harb has more or less invited me to drop by at Realskiers) sorry for the hijack.
post #497 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
You do not need leg rotation as a component. Here is one example. Keep in mind we were fooling around at the time and goofing on Tai-Chi skier, but if you were to put the hands in position I think we can all agree that this would hardly be a "gimped stance". Technically correct......no.....operational.....sure.

This really makes me laugh, so thank you. Through tears of laughter, I do feel a little sorrow for you. Bolter
post #498 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
That's as may be, but I'd take a lesson from you.
Thanks. That means alot...

How about we just go ski???
post #499 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolter View Post
This really makes me laugh, so thank you. Through tears of laughter, I do feel a little sorrow for you. Bolter
Methinks you missed the entire point, Bolter. And trust me when I say that Uncle Louie has far more insight into skiing than you are giving him credit for having.

A closed mind seldom learns.
post #500 of 1165
Nothing to post, just wanted to be #500 in this now ridiculous thread! hahahahahahahahaahahahahaha
post #501 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Nothing to post, just wanted to be #500 in this now ridiculous thread! hahahahahahahahaahahahahaha
501....
post #502 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Why? This isn't the PMTS board and we shouldn't be limited by the constraints of that board. That dog won't hunt here. If you want to only talk about PMTS, great. I'm free to talk about other stuff so long as I feel it's related and it's not offensive....

It's called a thread hijack and its considered by some to be rude (people often start of a post with - sorry for the hijack but...). I'm trying to stay involved with the discussion in case PMTS related stuff pops up but I just don't have the time to keep up with all the non PMTS tangents.
post #503 of 1165

Nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Methinks you missed the entire point, Bolter. And trust me when I say that Uncle Louie has far more insight into skiing than you are giving him credit for having.

A closed mind seldom learns.
You couldn't be more mistaken about my take on his post. Do you think I have a closed mind? I think I am open to innovation and look closely. I see "off the wall" viewpoints as a reality check. I am open to PMTS, ATS is my foundation of experience and I embraced the shape ski revolution from its beginning. If I am closed, of what significance is it ?
post #504 of 1165

501

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
501....
You stole 501 from Max
post #505 of 1165
then we'll promote him to MAX_502....
post #506 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post

The last I heard, 70% of students returned to camps and nearly 100% of privates returned. I have no idea what the industry average is, but those figures sound pretty good to me. Are those figures proof that PMTS instructors know how to teach?
with these sorts of numbers you would think colorado resorts would be climbing all over themselves to hire/recruit pmts instructors.

where do harald or diana teach private lessons?

max........where do you take pmts lessons from harald?
post #507 of 1165
So... a serious question....


Smooth or crunchy peanut butter.....?
post #508 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
then we'll promote him to MAX_502....
I think the correct number sequence is

501, 505, 517, 527, 550, 560 ...
post #509 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
So... a serious question....


Smooth or crunchy peanut butter.....?
Smooth you can spread with a brushed carve .The crunchy will take some active rotary to get er done.

So I would say this is all about smooth turns
post #510 of 1165
Hobbit- good to know someone who knows their Levi's!
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