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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 16

post #451 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Most often, those discussions only goes to show that the instructor knows what they are talking about, they don't really advance the skills of the group.
Perhaps. I'm sure it depends on the group. I was part of a higher level PMTS group and it was clear that everyone wanted more detail because they kept asking for more. Fine with me, I'm a sponge and like to soak up all the techie stuff.
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post #452 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Perhaps. I'm sure it depends on the group. I was part of a higher level PMTS group and it was clear that everyone wanted more detail because they kept asking for more. Fine with me, I'm a sponge and like to soak up all the techie stuff.
Max in that same clinic, the examiner did a really neat "trick". He made a "doughnut" with his thumb and first finger and said "Can you touch your thumb and first finger together?" Yes, easy. Then he stuck his other index finger through the hole "Can you do this?" Again, it's easy. Then he said, "Can you put it on your chin?" while at the same time placing the "doughnut" on his cheek. It took some folks 3 or 4 tries before they realized they needed to do what he was SAYING not what he was doing. Nobody got it right on the first try.

The point of it was, that was a VERY simple task. Much easier than what it takes to turn a ski. You can tell folks many times to do something, and most likely they will do what they SEE. Now in lessons, hopefully the instructor will demo what they say, but if you had to choose between two ways to teach people, go with the visual as that is how most people learn.
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post #453 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:45am
Lonnie, thanks for sharing that "trick"! What a great illustration.

It's also interesting to consider whether we should teach in the way people think they like to learn or in the way that they will actually learn best. That can also be a customer satisfaction question which has all kinds of implications.
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post #454 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:47am
Almost 500 posts now,,, and for the life of me........ Just what is it you guys are trying to figure out here?
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post #455 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Lonnie, thanks for sharing that "trick"! What a great illustration.

It's also interesting to consider whether we should teach in the way people think they like to learn or in the way that they will actually learn best. That can also be a customer satisfaction question which has all kinds of implications.
New thread...
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post #456 of 1165
4/17/07 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Almost 500 posts now,,, and for the life of me........ Just what is it you guys are trying to figure out here?
How long we can make this thread? :
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post #457 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 
I'm not really sure what this teaching tangent is all about and how it relates to PMTS.

Here's what I do know. Harald Harb and his partner Diana are busy from the beginning of the season to the very end. They have repeat customers from all over the world that travel to ski with them each year.

They must be doing something right.
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post #458 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Here's what I do know. Harald Harb and his partner Diana are busy from the beginning of the season to the very end. They have repeat customers from all over the world that travel to ski with them each year.
I can name 25-30 folks at Alta that I can say the same thing about....
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post #459 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
I can name 25-30 folks at Alta that I can say the same thing about....
Sounds like those 25-30 people are doing something right too.
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post #460 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post

Here's what I do know. Harald Harb and his partner Diana are busy from the beginning of the season to the very end. They have repeat customers from all over the world that travel to ski with them each year.

.
Wow.
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post #461 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Exactly. We are speaking different languages! Recognizing that can help us actually communicate. Of course, that takes modification of language and communication approach by the participants, and those deeply entrenched in habits may find that difficult.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck, but it won't be with me. I have tried many times to do this already. I give up.
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post #462 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Wow.
If you are going to quote someone and then make a smart alec comment at least do it in context. If you have been reading you know that the discussion moved from PMTS movements (and how they are really the same rotary movements everyone else teaches) to PMTS instruction which (according to UC, Lonnie, Bode, etc...) must be too technical and boring and quite frankly not likely to work because people don't learn that way. My statement was a response to that line of thinking.
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post #463 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:27am
All I'm saying is that one part of establishing a learning relationship is finding someone who's teaching style matches one's learning style. For me, standing in place for 11 mins listening to one ramble on, isn't it. I like technical discussions too, but first and foremost, I like to MOVE!!! I've also taught a lot of people. Most of them like the same thing. In fact, I'd like to go back and watch that teaching segment again, to observe the body languange of the class...

Let me ask you this, if that conversation wasn't on tape, how much of it would you remember? My guess is no more than about 30 seconds.
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post #464 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:35am
Lonnie, some great points. The TD of my PSIA-based school had to teach my class for me one week this season. When I got back I asked the kids how the week went without me and they said "John was boring, he just kept talking and talking". I agree with you. Too much rambling is without dispute not an optimal situation, particularly if it is a recurring pattern.

However, you can't assume that all PMTS lessons are like that one video that someone filmed in one situation. I know plenty of excellent PSIA instructors that at one time or another rambled on longer than was optimal. I agree with you though, 10 minutes of that puts me to sleep also.

What I don't understand is how this thread, which started out as Max sharing his progress video, has turned into "look how much HH rambles on video".
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post #465 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
All I'm saying is that one part of establishing a learning relationship is finding someone who's teaching style matches one's learning style. For me, standing in place for 11 mins listening to one ramble on, isn't it. I like technical discussions too, but first and foremost, I like to MOVE!!! I've also taught a lot of people. Most of them like the same thing. In fact, I'd like to go back and watch that teaching segment again, to observe the body languange of the class..
I've been in a PMTS class very similar to the one in that video. Of the whole week of skiing, those 10 minutes of Harald talking are the longest segment of standing around listening. I found it pretty important and helpful, and wouldn't be happy with teaching that didn't include such segments, being about as thinking a learner as you can get, but its also atypical. Most of the time was spent ... moving.
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post #466 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
I've been in a PMTS class very similar to the one in that video. Of the whole week of skiing, those 10 minutes of Harald talking are the longest segment of standing around listening. I found it pretty important and helpful, and wouldn't be happy with teaching that didn't include such segments, being about as thinking a learner as you can get, but its also atypical. Most of the time was spent ... moving.
And I'm not saying they aren't valid. What I'm saying is, there is a time and place for those types of segments. In a week long clinic those would be, at lunch, on the lifts, in the evenings etc. But while we are out, things should be limited to 2-3 mins tops....

L
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post #467 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:54am
I believe that was the clip in which HH explained to the class why it's sometimes necessary to pivot.
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post #468 of 1165
4/17/07 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I believe that was the clip in which HH explained to the class why it's sometimes necessary to pivot.
I don't remember. I only watched about 2-3 mins of it!!!

My friends call me A.D.D. boy for a reason...
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post #469 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If you are going to quote someone and then make a smart alec comment at least do it in context. If you have been reading you know that the discussion moved from PMTS movements (and how they are really the same rotary movements everyone else teaches) to PMTS instruction which (according to UC, Lonnie, Bode, etc...) must be too technical and boring and quite frankly not likely to work because people don't learn that way. My statement was a response to that line of thinking.
And my smart alec comment was a response to your suggestion that the fact that HH/Diana are busy instructing all season long is an indisputable indication of how well the system works.

Like Lonnie, I could name a few dozen private instructors at my resort who are busy all season long doing return sessions with clients from all over the world. Those people keep coming back to the same instructors because they; a.) have fun, b.) improve their skiing, c.) like the way the guy/girl looks in ski pants. Whatever.

All that your claim "proves" is that some percentage of HH's customers are happy with the product. That's a wonderful thing. It's hardly exclusive, however.
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post #470 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:03am
Why the defensiveness? I don't think I heard anyone ever claim exclusiveness.

What am I doing. I don't have time to engage in this thread today..
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post #471 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
And I'm not saying they aren't valid. What I'm saying is, there is a time and place for those types of segments. In a week long clinic those would be, at lunch, on the lifts, in the evenings etc. But while we are out, things should be limited to 2-3 mins tops....

L
No offense Lonnie but what is your experience? Aren't you a level 2? Seriously what do you really know about class management? What do you know about running high end premium ski instruction?
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post #472 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

What am I doing.
Two possible answers: This thread is...

a. entertaining.

b. great PR for Harald.
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post #473 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
No offense Lonnie but what is your experience? Aren't you a level 2? Seriously what do you really know about class management? What do you know about running high end premium ski instruction?
Well I've been teaching both full time and part time for 10-12 years. I work at a major resort that most people that have skied for more than a few years have heard of. One where it's fairly difficult to get hired due to consistently low turnover year after year. I've taught thousands of people how to ski. I've taught Groups, Privates, Adults, Kids. I've also TAKEN lessons, at many ski areas. I've skied and gotten "lessons" from everyone from level 1's to current and former demo team members. I also know what I like, and I know what I don't like. I've had students tell me what they like and what they don't like.

So other than that, I don't know $#!+...
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post #474 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
And my smart alec comment was a response to your suggestion that the fact that HH/Diana are busy instructing all season long is an indisputable indication of how well the system works.

Like Lonnie, I could name a few dozen private instructors at my resort who are busy all season long doing return sessions with clients from all over the world. Those people keep coming back to the same instructors because they; a.) have fun, b.) improve their skiing, c.) like the way the guy/girl looks in ski pants. Whatever.

All that your claim "proves" is that some percentage of HH's customers are happy with the product. That's a wonderful thing. It's hardly exclusive, however.
Interesting. I wonder what would happen if you took an instructor let's just say someone like oh Bob Peters and moved him to a new mountain oh let's say Squaw Valley. What percentage of his clientel would follow him to that new mountain? Now do the same with Harb and Diana. I think the difference would be striking. While your clients may come to you for a,b, c, I think Harb's clients are coming for a capital A. They're going to him for something they can get in very few places. While your clients are still going to JH ( and by the way the mountains happy you left because now they aren't paying out request rates) you will be in essence starting from scratch at Squaw. I doubt that would be the case with Harb.

Let's be serious for a second. If PSIA and NSAA were serious about improving instruction and educating the public they would bury the hatchet embrace Harb and accept Essentials as the training manual for their instructors. Unfortunately, the politics will not allow that.
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post #475 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Well I've been teaching both full time and part time for 10-12 years. I work at a major resort that most people that have skied for more than a few years have heard of. One where it's fairly difficult to get hired due to consistently low turnover year after year. I've taught thousands of people how to ski. I've taught Groups, Privates, Adults, Kids. I've also TAKEN lessons, at many ski areas. I've skied and gotten "lessons" from everyone from level 1's to current and former demo team members. I also know what I like, and I know what I don't like. I've had students tell me what they like and what they don't like.

So other than that, I don't know $#!+...
You ski 50+ days a year teach all those lessons have all that experience and you are still a level 2? Why hasn't all that vaunted PSIA training taken you to the next level.
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post #476 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
You ski 50+ days a year teach all those lessons have all that experience and you are still a level 2? Why hasn't all that vaunted PSIA training taken you to the next level.
Here you go...

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=54944
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post #477 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
No offense Lonnie but what is your experience? Aren't you a level 2? Seriously what do you really know about class management? What do you know about running high end premium ski instruction?
Hey Vocalskier, what are your answers to these questions?
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post #478 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
It's also interesting to consider whether we should teach in the way people think they like to learn or in the way that they will actually learn best.
Do you believe that everyone necessarily learns best by watching and doing, then?

I ask because I've often been frustrated with instructors who demonstrate movements, have me imitate them, but do not explain how those movements fit into my skiing. What existing actions are they intended to replace or complement? Why are they better? When should I use them? It seems to be expected that having done some drill, I should have felt something that I should then want to reproduce in my skiing, but for me it rarely works that way.

I've come to the conclusion that I need a mental model of what I'm doing to fit the visual and physical cues into. I find it very hard to imitate movements and process the feedback from my skis unless I have some abstract understanding of what's going on. The "monkey see monkey do" model of instruction doesn't really work for me, which is why I ended up self-coaching from books for quite a while, my preferences being Ron LeMaster and Harald Harb.

To bring this back to the subject at hand, PMTS does a very good job a giving skiers a comprehensible mental model for what they're doing. I've found this incredibly helpful. I attended one of the PMTS camps last December and noticed that there's quite a preponderance of thinkers amonst the coaches and students. I wonder if this is an audience where Harald's approach has an advantage.
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post #479 of 1165
4/17/07 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
To bring this back to the subject at hand, PMTS does a very good job a giving skiers a comprehensible mental model for what they're doing. I've found this incredibly helpful. I attended one of the PMTS camps last December and noticed that there's quite a preponderance of thinkers amonst the coaches and students. I wonder if this is an audience where Harald's approach has an advantage.
So you're saying HH has developed a Niche market in his camps???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
Do you believe that everyone necessarily learns best by watching and doing, then?

I ask because I've often been frustrated with instructors who demonstrate movements, have me imitate them, but do not explain how those movements fit into my skiing. What existing actions are they intended to replace or complement? Why are they better? When should I use them? It seems to be expected that having done some drill, I should have felt something that I should then want to reproduce in my skiing, but for me it rarely works that way.
Simon,

If I'm doing my job (which some folks here apparently think I don't know jack about), I'm teaching to ALL learning styles simultaneously during the course of a lesson (I teach mainly groups but I think this works for privates too). I'm hitting the visual, the doing, the technical, the feeling, all of it, and emphasizing the critical one at the RIGHT TIME (which I think is key). It can be quite the juggling act at times, but hey, my it's my job. If I can get somebody to see something in my skiing, and then do it in their own skiing, and the FEEL it and finally understand the why (they might need a 30 sec explination or they might need a longer one), ski teaching is easy.
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post #480 of 1165
4/17/07 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So you're saying HH has developed a Niche market in his camps???.
I have also noticed a surprisingly high number of thinkers in the PMTS camps.
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