Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 13

I'm still getting caught up on this thread; I'm on page 11, and wanted to reply to something on page 8. I can wait no longer.

What we have here is a failure to communicate!

I really am quite mystified. It must be that you are all over-edumecated. You have been educated in what the term rotary means and use it to apply to any body part that is rotating with respect to any thing else. Forget about it, there is an easier way to see what is going on here. It is really quite clear to me, and it's very frustrating to see others not understanding.

First let me say I have not read the PMTS books, I have not attended PMTS camps. My only connection to HH is that I watched the Crazy Canucks become the first non-Europeans to win WC gold in the DH and endeavored to ski like them, and HH raced briefly with the Canadian WC team, so we have a lot in common:.

You have a skier a ski and the snow.
The skier can turn their skis by twisting them, just like you doing the twist to twist your feet while standing in place.

The skier can tip their skis, just like you can stand on the left edge of your left foot and the right edge of your right foot.

If you tip your skis they will turn due to an interaction between the skis and the snow without you having to apply a twisting force (torque actually) from your body to the skis.

If you "steer" you skis they will also turn, but in this case you ARE applying a twisting force (torque actually) to the skis.

If you can imagine skiing with a look turn-table heel piece as a binding placed in the middle of the sole of your boot, you can imagine sking without applied rotary. Arguments that tipping skis requires "rotary" with bent knees, the skis are rotating, etcetera are all beside the point. Tipping does not equal twisting the skis. Tipping skis is allowed in PMTS, twisting them is not allowed (with obvious exceptions such as pivot-entry). The rotation or twisting that is not allowed is using your body to twist the skis about an axis that is parallel with the plane of the ski.

Please note: forces coming from the snow acting on the skis that make the skis rotate are allowed. Also note, but perhaps not so clear to the non-visual non-geometric learner: if the ski is tipped to 90 degrees, pushing the tails or tips with not rotation in the plane of the skis does the same thing as twisting the skis when they are flat as far as the skis motion in the plane of the hill is concerned.

What's equally remarkable is that this is my first post in the whole dang thing...

The outside ski is generally dominant, even in "two footed carving," but balancing EXCLUSIVELY on the outside ski is a symptom of poorly developed lateral balance. You can't really get far off the groomers if you can't ski both skis whenever you want, or if you habitually pick up your inside ski to start a turn.

BK

Right, we are talking movements big or small; Steering movements, internal rotation of the uphill ski in particular and lateral displacement to form the wedge and to steer into a turn.
PMTS is not focused here.

Ironic that you should choose that example:

Harb demonstrates the very same drill in "The essentials of skiing". Even he says you don't normally stand this wide, but you feel high edge angles and the extension/flexion mechanism at work. If I could find my copy, I'd quote you the page number and a remark or two.

Regardless, that's learning about flexion - an essential movement - and how it can be used to control edge angle. The skills it "blends" in the CSIA are edging, timing/coordination, stance and balance, pressure control. But not pivotting!

Yet, to the student, the fact that the movement gets dissected into skills by the instructor is meaningless. It is more than likely that the student cannot name any of the skills exercised by the drill, but they can still do the movement. Once they feel the movement, a very similar movement pattern can be drilled that will actually be brought into his skiing.

Harb says the same stuff against the CSIA as he does the PSIA.
If it is without merit, then surely as a pro, you should be able to tell by going through the drills. The essentials costs less than $20. At the very least it would pay to know your enemy.

I realize that Max, but I haven't seen you making turns where you are balanced against both skis at the same time (not a bad thing either). I am not claiming that PMTS teaches outside ski dominance - that is a different topic all together.

Later

GREG

Ghost, I got my copy of the essentials for about $20 at chapters.ca.

You really need to get a copy.

I agree. I do not make skidded turns by intentionally applying rotary forces to the ski. Instead, I prefer to allow the ski to drift (I think along the lines of a 4-wheel drift in a car) by reducing the edge angle and holding the ski on-line. I see holding the ski on-line as requiring rotary skills (so as to keep the ski from rotating off-course in either direction), but I don't see these turns as being pivoty at all.

I agree with this, as well. I think one way of viewing PMTS is as a method of communicating ideas that, when used as they are communicated, results in outcomes that are sought by the skiers. There may be many more things going on (as alluded to in this paragraph), but the skier need not be aware of them. Some instructors and others who study skiing to a very great degree may see those other things and interpret what's going on, but the skier would disagree since they aren't focused on them and they are resultant.

BTW and FWIW, I'm not sure that everyone will get that out of the various books. They work for some folks, but not everyone. That one of the reasons that there are so many on-going questions about it, I think. It's not as obvious as you may think.

Thanks for the tip. I am not saying that you cannot ski both skis, or either ski when needed, but that your ideal lateral balance should be in terms of the outside ski. If your ideal is somewhere in the middle (between your feet) you will never achieve high performance [edgeangle and speed] turns regardless of the terrain you ski on. On a 40 degree pitch covered with crud, cut-up powder, or rough windpack, which ski takes the majority of the load as you move toward the belly of the turn?

Later

GREG

There are posts by DavidM that strongly suggest otherwise. FWIW, those posts have been amalgamated in the supporters section. There is some really good stuff there. OR you can search for all DavidM's posts yourself.

As I understand it, the lift and tip is primarily a visual cue for the instructor. Eventually, outside leg relaxation (OLR) and two footed releases replace it. Please Max, correct me if I am wrong.

Of course you need to balance completely on the outside ski some of the time, but if you always need to balance on the outside ski to get a turn going, that's shows less developed lataeral balance. That's like an inermediate skill; better than if you need to balance on both skis all the time, but not really ready for the big time yet.

BK

Have you ever taught anyone to ski?

BK

From my earlier post: "the outside ski is generally dominant, even in 'two footed carving.'"
Sometimes it needs to be completely dominant, but if you can't get to your inside ski, you'll be happier on the blue groomers. Your "ideal lateral balance" is not "dialed in" to a particular spot: it is wherever it needs to be at any particular time.

BK

I don't think it's "mis-interpret", actually. As many have observed here before, for example, the femur definitely rotates in the hip socket in every high-level turn (the only alternative would be that the upper-body stays completely aligned with the skis at all times). That is what is happening. The interpretation is that the femur is rotating. The skier may not feel that or think that, but it is. Possible. But, in most cases, I don't think so. For example, I've been accused of this here (a lot!), but that doesn't align with my education. So, after I have examined the possibility, I've dismissed it. Yet, a few strong PMTS proponents continue to insist that I'm blinded by my allegiance to PSIA.

I didn't think I said it was in one particular spot... but again, thanks for the tip.

That's why it works, but that's also why many instructors find all the endless description it generates to be irrelevant, or at east tedious.

BK

Are you talking about skiing or teaching here? PMTS teaching is really just the old Austrian "perform each task perfectly before you move on to the next one" method. Only the most motivated beginners will stick around for that, at least in the US. But if you believe that PMTS has taught you some secret way of working a ski that the rest of the world has not figured out, you really have drunk the Koolaid.

BK

But it's about skills, not just movements. If I teach you edging skills, and independently teach rotary skills, you can use those 2 skills in any combination. There is an infinite number of movements that can result from blending those skills, there's not enough time left in my life to teach you an infinite number of movements.

For one thing, what is in that that I don't know? I've never even heard a rumor of a PMTS drill that I haven't already learned from PSIA Ed Staff, so why would I buy a book from a competitor who disparages an organization that has trained me into a pretty good career?

BK

I don't think you could be any more wrong here. Whenever you are on a packed surface, you will have superior performance if you can stand with most of your weight on your outside ski. There is no reason to stand on the inside ski. Putting any weight on your inside ski will compromise the edging of the turn. Its as simple as that. Sometimes it is neccessary due to tactics or recovery to ski on the inside ski or both skis, but as long as you're not outside dominant, the carve performance is compromised.

Skiing with your weight on both skis on a packed surface is the intermediate skill, not the other way around. That is like riding a bike with training wheels.

If you are in powder, it changes quite a bit. Now a a more even stance is more functional for a number of reasons.

I agree with everything you wrote, but apparently you've mis-read everything I've wrote.

BK

You can't read either.

BK

Thanks. Apparently, there is a slightly different take on that move by some folks in the CSCF.

BigE, can you expound on that?