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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 2

post #31 of 1165
Is there anywhere you can read about those BPST?
I'd like to get better at doing quick, short turns - I'd very much like to drive formations and synchrony..
post #32 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
Please explain. Is it skarving? I hear HH say that others skid and smear turns, it this a loophole? I don't mean to be smart, just asking for clarification. :
post #33 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The head bobbing (note that you sometimes go as far as to counter an up move in the hips with a downward motion of the head), the quick retraction and quick edge changes, the bent over stance, seem to be more challenging than the up-move you are trying very hard to avoid...Just wondering about all this, because I do believe that PMTS is more efficent than the up-move and pivot entry, but the effort you are making to have a perfectly quiet upper body seems to go against all that efficiency argument.
I've already mentioned that the head movement was intentional as I looked down at my skis. It isn't a counter movement to any other movement.

I rarely get tired when I ski. The flex move takes very little effort (relax the outside leg and tip). The bump skiing clips at the end of the video were taken from my last 3 runs after skiing powder all day (the 5th day of fairly intense skiing). We skied until the lifts closed each day. Generally I skip lunch and ski right through. Does that mean PMTS is effortless? Of course not, energetic all mountain skiing isn't easy. It isn't effortless. But some methods let you ski all day while others wipe you out.

So why don't I look effortless when I ski? Most likely because I don't 'own' all of the movements yet, so it might look like I'm trying harder than it should because I'm over emphasizing some of them to get them into my system (When I start to incorporate a new movement I over emphasize it, to the point that it feels awkward, then I keep doing that until it starts to feel more normal, at that point I am beginning to own the movement and can dial it up or down as needed for the turns I'm making). Also, many of my movements need polish. For example, my release movement should be more gradual. I wasn't focused on the release in these clips. I was mainly working on the weak counter on my right side and pulling my feet back.

Harald owns all the PMTS movements and he is poetry in motion.

BTW, none of this is free skiing footage. For each clip there was something Harald had me working on.
post #34 of 1165
I don't know why folks are bugging you about your poles-your purposeful pole plants are the best part of the video!

All looks real good! Now you can just start skiing for fun!
post #35 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
All looks real good! Now you can just start skiing for fun!
Thanks for the kind words. All skiing I do is for fun. I love every minute I'm out on the slopes. Doesn't matter if I'm doing a drill or snaking a powder line from a buddy of mine. Its all FUN!
post #36 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
This use of the term skidding must be unique to PMTS. Up here, we often intentionally skid turns. Now it is clear what it means when a PMTS student says his turns are not skidded - it means they were supposed to look like that.
post #37 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
Please explain. Is it skarving? I hear HH say that others skid and smear turns, it this a loophole? I don't mean to be smart, just asking for clarification. :
Take a look at the first clip and notice that the skis don't turn while they are flat. Notice how often you can see the bases of the skis from up the hill. I'm using the same movements I use for carving. However, the edge angle is much lower at the top of the turn so the skis brush the snow as they are edged. That's brushed carving.

This is different than pivoting the skis when they are flat or pushing the tails out to the side.
post #38 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I'm either skiing towards or away from the camera. I don't know what you mean by the angle but the movement part is the just zooming in and out.
Is this a case where the cameraperson is stationed on a rise at the bottom of the slope with a good video camera that zooms well?

From your other comments regarding HH assignments, I presume this was video taken by one of his staffers from a spot they use regularly. Very well planned and executed.
post #39 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
In the carving clips it looks to me like I'm pressuring the tips as I see snow from the tip down. So I'm guessing you are talking about other turns. Would you point one out for me so I can take a look.

The first shot is from the back. In the second shot (front) you can see it clearly. Your skiing is exceptional, but more use of the forward section of the ski would help eliminate the "controlled brushing". That's a great name for it and you do it well, but it seems you are over doing it.

Being more centered on the ski lets the front of the ski become more a part of the turn. Too much forward pressure will cause the ski to hook, but your skiing seems to under utilize that part ot the ski.

Later in the carved short turns, it is not really an issue.

Some fine skiing all the way around.
post #40 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
The first shot is from the back. In the second shot (front) you can see it clearly. Your skiing is exceptional, but more use of the forward section of the ski would help eliminate the "controlled brushing". That's a great name for it and you do it well, but it seems you are over doing it.
Got it. FWIW, the controlled brushing is what I was trying to do in those clips. If you look at the 6th and 7th clips (I knew I should have taken the time to number them when I put the video together) you'll see a gentle brushed start followed by a tempo change where I move to a much more aggressive turn. Less brushing with bigger angles. One of my favorite turns to use.

All that said, Harald has pulling the inside foot back as one of the things I need to focus on.
post #41 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
Is this a case where the cameraperson is stationed on a rise at the bottom of the slope with a good video camera that zooms well?
We used two cameras, both small hand held DV cams (so they fit into a jacket pocket reasonably well). Harald did all of the filming and as you can see he is very good at it. When filming from behind he was just next to me and said go. When filming from below he'd ski down and then wave his hand to signal that he was ready. Thats it. No filming from rises or any special places. We just filmed whenever we thought it made sense to get some video after we'd practiced something for a bit. Always tried to have some to review mid day and then again at the end of the day.

The key to good video is keeping the subject zoomed in as much as possible so you can see what is happening. This requires a steady hand and a feel for how fast the subject is moving.
post #42 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrooK View Post
Is there anywhere you can read about those BPST?
I'd like to get better at doing quick, short turns - I'd very much like to drive formations and synchrony..
The BPST is learned in PMTS Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier Book 2. Its a combination of the one and two footed releases and proper upper body movements (counter, counter balance, and the pole plant). Its the turn a PMTS trained skier uses for much of his off piste skiing.
post #43 of 1165
Controlled Brushing. I love it.
post #44 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post

All that said, Harald has pulling the inside foot back as one of the things I need to focus on.
I like that.
post #45 of 1165
sounds like a scarved turn to me. Brushed carving means some skidding. just being controlled. It's not the "primary movement" but it is part of what happens in good skiing. PSIA calls it Guiding. It's not a pivot move or pivot entry but additional or secondary input.
post #46 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
Brushing is not skidding ?Hmmm. Could it be pivoting then? Damn that rotary . Or do we have another name for that too ? Nice turns on those little skis.
post #47 of 1165
Let’s take a closer look at what is really happening in Max 501’s skiing.

First, I will say is that Max does have some skills. Advanced, yes… Expert, Not quite!

His fore/aft stance is reasonably solid, as good as I have seen in awhile! But he still occasionally still moves to far forward on the foot, resulting in a pivot, or wash out, of the tails.
His leg rotation is pretty nice in some of the turns, and in others, he just parks and arcs. But when the f/a stance gets forward, he loses the tails completely, as demonstrated in his pivot turns with a late edge set. In other turns, due to his desire to “pull the inside ski back”, he ends up with his pelvis too square to the skis, and ends up driving them around with his torso.
The edge that he affects comes from various sources, determined by the radius, and the speed he is moving at. Sometimes it comes from the lower leg, sometimes just from the hip. Due to his PMTS training, his stance is sometimes a bit narrower than the conditions might dictate, but that’s his choice.

By his own admission, he is doing drills, not free skiing. Therefore, this must be taken into consideration when doing any MA on this footage. But as it is focused, it provides insight into his fundamentals as well.

Overall, I think some of what he shows us in his video is decent skiing. I would really enjoy working with someone with his basics, and seeing how far he could develop into a more natural skier.

Starting with some of the comments about his poles- it is not the length of the pole which causes some of the issues, but rather, it is the timing and placement of his pole touch.
In Max’s shorter turns, he consistently touches the pole prior to any release of the edges from the previous turn, therefore causing a defensive or slightly blocking action to occur. If he were to touch the pole after the edge change, he would find a more gliding, offensive type of movement and feeling which would compliment his flexed release much more.
In Max’s longer turns, he makes a pole touch out in front of the body. At the speed and radius he is skiing at, even WC skiers do not reach out in front, but rather ‘bump’ the pole on the snow to provide the rhythm and timing they use the pole for.
In both of these cases, this timing/placement is causing a momentary glitch in the flow of his turns.

One critical thing I noticed in most of the action shown, is that Max is static. His legs do not flex/extend. In some turns they do a small amount, but generally, he is terminally flexed. Regardless of the turn radius, there needs to be some f/e which facilitates energizing of the ski, and management of the developing energy. In the longer turns, you can see him make an effort to flex excessively through the transition, and it comes as a short, sudden flex, rather than a longer, smoother flexing through that same transition. I am not implying this movement needs to be an “up” movement, but it could be smoother by drawing it out, or by being prepared for it earlier.

In Max’s first set of turns, he shapes the turn nicely, using an amount of edge which provides him with enough friction to develop a direction change. Many would try to over edge in this turn, but he has found a nice blend which makes them pretty smooth turns. If he did amp up the edge in these turns, he would generate considerably more energy and would be making a much more dynamic turn. There is still an ever so slight hesitation (pp related) between turns in the first part of this run, but as the speed/ energy increased, he went with it and linked the turns more effectively nearer the bottom. Other than the hesitation, nice skiing.

In Max’s second segment, also nice skiing. Other than issues noted above, the only additional item I’d mention about this is the foot to foot stepping which I understand is part of the PMTS training. In a few cases, when the footage is slowed way down, you can see the push off from one foot towards the other, resulting in a late disengagement of the old ski. I am not suggesting that he place any different weight distribution ski to ski, but moving both legs in unison would help make those transitions smoother.

In segment 3 (people sitting in snow behind Max), the first few turns are nicely shaped, but then he lets himself get way too far forward on his feet, resulting in a turning point well ahead of the center of the ski. This in turn encourages the feet to displace laterally, or heel pushing to a late edge set. That you can see the tail displacing much further than the tips is indicative of this situation.

In the next segment (first long turns), this is where the lack of f/e of the legs is causing real issues. Because the legs are already using a significant amount of its range of motion by being pre-flexed, it limits the amount available to make a smoother, more dynamic transition. If the legs were longer during the power phase of the turn, they would then have sufficient RoM remaining to not need to make such an abrupt flexing move during the transition. As mentioned previously, the pole placement is also an issue in these turns, on occasion. Given that you are making GS length turns on a SL length ski, you can get away with minimal guiding activity (ie- park and arc). If you were on a true GS length ski for these turns, you would have to demonstrate the added ability of guiding to make turns of this radius.

Second set of longer radius turns. Same comments as first set.

Segment 6- slow short turns, becoming fast, almost GS turns. At first, because of the rigid stance you are in, I expected to see some hip rotation to initiate the turns. But in fact, you are very subtly turning the legs before the torso begins to move. This is a GOOD thing! But it does prove that you are, in fact, turning your legs. I also find it interesting that as the speed increased at the end of this segment, you began using the ‘bump’ method of pole touch I had mentioned in your longer turns.

Segment7- the “bobblehead exercise”- It’s difficult to make any analysis of this segment, as you were obviously working on something very specific, and likely does not represent your skiing very closely. The few turns at the bottom seemed to be pretty lively, and it makes me wonder how you interpret the idea of ‘pulling the inside foot back’. I can appreciate that excessive inside ski lead is not a good thing. But nor is being too square to the skis. Where as the drill you were doing looks rather forced and artificial, the turns near the bottom showed a great deal of freedom. Were you also concerned about the inside foot during those turns? (just a thought…)

First powder/crud run- This run showed more f/e of the legs than any of your previous runs! It’s got a nice tempo, nice movement, but once again, the timing of the pp is causing the most major glitch in this run. You can see a few time where the arm is snapped back because of the impact /timing of the pole touch.

Second powder/crud run- Again, nice radius, fun skiing. Alter the pole timing and this would have been something special. A more fluid, reaching down the hill with your body, smooth elegant run!

Powder bumps- You started off this run strongly, but got into trouble when you got too closed (square) to the skis. This caused you to lose the energy which helped you link the turns together earlier in the run. The u/l body separation you showed in the top of this run was really nice!

Powder bumps#2- The same thing happened here… When the u/l body had separation, things were working, but when you lost that, it was a tough go. In both of these runs, the loss of that separation also contributed to the timing of your f/e movements, which became more and more out of synch with the bumps.

In the last segment (heavy snowfall) things were working pretty well, but this time I noticed what caused a few issues for you. Your left pole swing is consistent, but your right pole hesitates. Every time is does, you hesitate to commit to the next turn. This gives the body time to follow and square up with the skis, eliminating the energy link between the turns.

As I said at the beginning, you have some skills! There is still quite a bit of work to be done with those skills, but your fundamentals are pretty decent. Certainly as good as many of the ‘pros’ I have worked with over the years.

I have only tried to highlight some of the most obvious of the things I see in your skiing. Within each, there are the finer details which should mostly work themselves out as you make some of the more major changes.
post #48 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
....he occasionally still moves to far forward on the foot, resulting in a pivot, or wash out, of the tails.....when the f/a stance gets forward, he loses the tails completely, as demonstrated in his pivot turns with a late edge set.

.....In other turns, due to his desire to “pull the inside ski back”, he ends up with his pelvis too square to the skis, and ends up driving them around with his torso.
Great skiing by Max and excellent post by Vailsnopro. I quoted some issues that I see in Max skiing as well and would like to get some more input and opinions on above quotes from both Max and Vailsnopro and others interested to comment.
post #49 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
Huh???

This kind of statement makes PMTS lose all credibility in my mind. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff to be learned from PMTS, but this idea of controlled brushing differing from skidding is BOGUS.
post #50 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie View Post
Huh???

This kind of statement makes PMTS lose all credibility in my mind. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff to be learned from PMTS, but this idea of controlled brushing differing from skidding is BOGUS.
I find the term "brushed carve" somewhat amusing, but I really don't think that concept is all that different from the "skarved turn" that is talked about on here at times. I think we can all agree that there are "good skids" and there are "bad skids". PMTS just happens to call "good skidding" "brushed carves" and Harald's definition of "skidding" happens to coincide with most people would consider "bad skids".
post #51 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
I find the term "brushed carve" somewhat amusing, but I really don't think that concept is all that different from the "skarved turn" that is talked about on here at times. I think we can all agree that there are "good skids" and there are "bad skids". PMTS just happens to call "good skidding" "brushed carves" and Harald's definition of "skidding" happens to coincide with most people would consider "bad skids".
Carving is letting the skis run along their edges leaving rr tracks behind or at least one railroad track. Some skidding is theoretically allways present but lests not get too picky. IMO everything else is skidding, just different sort of skidding. Scarving is IMO a form of skidding that occours when we drift into a slight skidd while carving. It is aggressive skidding. Intentional even skidding is ok offcourse but bad skidding is the kind of skidding that occours in case we want to carve or so called wind shield wiper turns. Bad skidding is actually just a result of bad technique. Its not that skidding in itself would be bad.
post #52 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie View Post
Huh???

This kind of statement makes PMTS lose all credibility in my mind. I'm sure there's a lot of great stuff to be learned from PMTS, but this idea of controlled brushing differing from skidding is BOGUS.
It's not bogus at all. It's a simple question: Is the tail following the tip or is it being pushed out? If it is following then you can make a nice round turn regardless of edge angle.
post #53 of 1165
You look good Max!
post #54 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro
....he occasionally still moves to far forward on the foot, resulting in a pivot, or wash out, of the tails.....when the f/a stance gets forward, he loses the tails completely, as demonstrated in his pivot turns with a late edge set.

.....In other turns, due to his desire to “pull the inside ski back”, he ends up with his pelvis too square to the skis, and ends up driving them around with his torso.
Quote:
Great skiing by Max and excellent post by Vailsnopro. I quoted some issues that I see in Max skiing as well and would like to get some more input and opinions on above quotes from both Max and Vailsnopro and others interested to comment.
They are interesting points but they are not what I am feeling. I have a good sense of pressure in my foot and I'm typically right on the arch or a bit behind it. I'm actually trying to get just a hair forward of the arch. I'm definitely not on the ball of the foot and pivoting the ski. I understand that you may 'see' this happening because of the movement of the skis. But the skis are moving as they are from the strong tipping movement combined with the foot pullback and the counter movements which put together result in the skis movement. As I've pointed out before the turns are brushed intentionally. If I had wanted to use more edge angle I would have, but it wasn't the goal.

To address the counter we have to consider each side. With regards to the right side I often have weak counter and sometimes I rotate into the turn. This is an artifact from a movement I developed from an alignment issue on the right foot (since corrected) that I'm working to get rid of. Unfortunately countering in either direction takes alot of effort because I'm not as strong and flexible in my core muscles as I'd like to be.
post #55 of 1165
I know it's been beat to death in other threads, but some of you guys are taking some concepts out of context!

ARCING is the process of a ski leaving only its edge mark in the snow, with tail following tip.

CARVING is minimizing excessive skidding.

To give a new definition to the fact the skis are moving sidewards, as well as forward.... I find this amusing as well.... I accept that in many turns, arcing is not possible, or even desireable. I can still define it as carving, provided I have eliminated the excessive (not necessarily ALL) skidding from the turn. Its all a matter of degree and intent.

Max- I'm going to have to disagree with you re: the f/a balance issue. There are certain biomechanical givens in this sport which are somewhat inviolable. So, in the turns I observed the pivot happening, your "strong tipping movement" is being done by pushing the outside foot laterally, not the leg or body creating edging movements by tipping inward. Either way, the pivot point of the ski doesn't lie... When the tip engages and the tail does not, and the ski pivots, you are too far forward. The tipping movement has little to do with it. It is a rotary function, not a tipping/edging one.

One thing which is virtually impossible to do (yet I hear this all the time from people and pros out on the hill) is to be balanced on the forefoot, and expect to carve a turn. Some measure of arcing might take place, but not an actively guided carve.
post #56 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
To address the counter we have to consider each side. With regards to the right side I often have weak counter and sometimes I rotate into the turn. This is an artifact from a movement I developed from an alignment issue on the right foot (since corrected) that I'm working to get rid of.
Could you please tell us how that alignment was fixed and how it affected your skiing positively. Also, you mention that to the right side you have a week counter, does that mean on our left turns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Unfortunately countering in either direction takes alot of effort because I'm not as strong and flexible in my core muscles as I'd like to be.
Do you mean counteracting (counter, upper body counter rotation) or counterbalancing (angulation)?
post #57 of 1165
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
One thing which is virtually impossible to do (yet I hear this all the time from people and pros out on the hill) is to be balanced on the forefoot, and expect to carve a turn. Some measure of arcing might take place, but not an actively guided carve.
Excellent post.... this is fascinating, could you brake this down a bit for me.
post #58 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Max- I'm going to have to disagree with you re: the f/a balance issue. There are certain biomechanical givens in this sport which are somewhat inviolable. So, in the turns I observed the pivot happening, your "strong tipping movement" is being done by pushing the outside foot laterally, not the leg or body creating edging movements by tipping inward. Either way, the pivot point of the ski doesn't lie... When the tip engages and the tail does not, and the ski pivots, you are too far forward. The tipping movement has little to do with it. It is a rotary function, not a tipping/edging one.
Yup, we are going to have to disagree on this point.

Your post was interesting and is a good example of the differences between PSIA influenced skiing and PMTS.

Some of your MA has me scratching my head. For example you talk about lack of F/E in the carving section yet I move from 90 degrees of leg flex (FYI the goal) to an almost straight outside leg.

One question for you. Why do you plant your pole AFTER you have started the new turn?
post #59 of 1165
TDK6-

This is not the right place to do so... A new thread dedicated to this might be in order.

But I would be happy to do so...
post #60 of 1165
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Excellent post.... this is fascinating, could you brake this down a bit for me.
When you move the pressure to the ball of the foot you create a pivot point that makes it very difficult to keep the tail engaged because the front of the ski is being pressured at the same time pressure is being removed from the tail.

When arcing I like the pressure to move from slightly in front of the arch to a bit behind the arch (or, if you prefer, a bit in front of the heel). When the skis begin to jet on me I feel the pressure move to the heel which is too far back. With lots of shape in the ski I don't want the pressure too far forward or too far back.

Note: it's desirable to create tip pressure by engaging the tips with proper fore/aft balance. The difference is that the tail also stays engaged because pressure is not removed from the aft area of the ski. The tip pressure is created by edge angles combined with a solid fore/aft stance which causes tip engagement that pulls the ski tip across, and then, up the hill (the result is a strong ski bend that produces speed control while arcing). Of course this is greatly simplified and there are other supporting movements I don't mention here.
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