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Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 8

post #211 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Her skiing is an awesome example of PMTS in action.
What do you think of Matts skiing? Or Reich or Roccas or Larssons or Palanders. Can you find anything controversial to PMTS in their skiing?
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post #212 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What do you think of Matts skiing? Or Reich or Roccas or Larssons or Palanders. Can you find anything controversial to PMTS in their skiing?
You are completely missing the point. You said that PMTS was limiting at higher levels. I offered Diana skiing on the race circuit and Harald ripping all mountain to suggested that PMTS is not limiting since they are both high level PMTS skiers. They don't use anything in their skiing that isn't taught in PMTS.

Once again, please justify your position that PMTS is somehow limiting at the higher levels.
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post #213 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Are you suggesting that PMTS using hip rotation as the primary trigger for the BPST?
NO

You have it all figured out but I dont. I was refering to what I saw in your video.

Let me ask you something. Since we skidd our turns in BPST how do you suggest we trigger the skidd?
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post #214 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Interesting video of HH. In order to be able to determine if that is good or bad skiing we would need a reference. You for example. Do you have any filming of yourselfe on that same run?
I can't believe you've just said that.

What a pile of wibble.

I'll just butt out again. I felt the need to contribute at that point.
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post #215 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:54am
BTW, is there any video of Diana in action?
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post #216 of 1165
4/15/07 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by veeeight View Post
I can't believe you've just said that.

What a pile of wibble.

I'll just butt out again. I felt the need to contribute at that point.
Could you contribute a little more than what you just did. I would be very interested in hearing some input from you and not just some opinion.
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post #217 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
You are completely missing the point. You said that PMTS was limiting at higher levels. I offered Diana skiing on the race circuit and Harald ripping all mountain to suggested that PMTS is not limiting since they are both high level PMTS skiers. They don't use anything in their skiing that isn't taught in PMTS.

Once again, please justify your position that PMTS is somehow limiting at the higher levels.
This thread is so long Im not going to try to find postings to prove my point but you have said yourselfe that you dont want to take any input that is not PMTS. PMTS is not limiting in any way but if you think it is the ultimate solution to skiing you might be wrong. I dont know but have you notissed that nobody rants on PMTS here? But you keep defending.

Also, what kind of techique does PMTS suggest we use in high speed GS or SG?
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post #218 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:11am
I have been reading this interesting thread. What I don't understand, is the discussion about PMTS. I am from Holland in Europe and just a hobby-skier. So no doubt this will be a stupid question, but: What the heck is PMTS and in which way is it exclusive?
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post #219 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
I have been reading this interesting thread. What I don't understand, is the discussion about PMTS. I am from Holland in Europe and just a hobby-skier. So no doubt this will be a stupid question, but: What the heck is PMTS and in which way is it exclusive?
LOL Dutchman ! You really made my day! See, not all know about PMTS even though they can ski very well. BTW, I think your indoor skiing clip was great .

Im from europe myselfe and I learned about PMTS here at this forum. PMTS stands for PrimaryMovementsTeachingSystem I think. Go to www.realskiers.com and check it out. And get the new book/DVD from the site or e-bay. Its the best book on modern skiing you will ever find.
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post #220 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
I have been reading this interesting thread. What I don't understand, is the discussion about PMTS. I am from Holland in Europe and just a hobby-skier. So no doubt this will be a stupid question, but: What the heck is PMTS and in which way is it exclusive?
PMTS is a ski teaching system developed by Harold Harb. I think, other's can correct me if I'm wrong, HH started out learning the Austrian way, skied for Canada on the WC circuit doing mostly slalom, coached in Alaska for a while and now teaches skiing using the system he developed from his experiences. What seems to distinguish his system from others is that he spends a lot of effort to avoid using the skier's body rotation about an axis parallel to the surface of the skis to rotate the skis, relying totally on tipping movements to put the ski on edge and moving the ski along the curved edge, instead of steering the tips into the turn. There is a link to a PMTS forum on the realskiers.com site.

Edit: Well, the link is on the member's only section (membership includes access to excellent ski reviews). Here it is http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/ (edit2: got it right this time, though the page doesn't seem to work at the moment)
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post #221 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:31am
TDK6,
Having first learned to ski using more of a DH style and discovering short SL style turns later, I would be interested in your take on the differences, and the differences one might expect to encounter learning slalom first then progressing to DH versus learning DH first and then progressing to slalom. It seems to be a continuum, not that you would ever want to try a SL turn on a DH run, but there is an interesting range of overlap between the extemes. Perhaps you could start another thread on it.
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post #222 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:47am
It seems that most people, incorrectly, view PMTS as analogous with RealSkiers.

The RealSkiers site was started by Peter Keelty to provide ski information and reviews. It is a pay site, and well worth the money in many people's opinion.

The RealSkiers site began hosting a PMTS forum at the request of several of the members, but the moderation and administration of that site is not Peter (and therefore not really RealSkiers) and I don't think access to that site requires RealSkiers membership (because Harald is plenty quick to decide who should have access and who doesn't).

The RealSkiers site also hosts (or has links to) a number of other forums such as John Clendenin's "Aspen Method" site and a "Ski Divas" site because Peter worked with John on his book and (I assume) feels that both sites provide valuable information for his readers.

I don't have any vested interest in any of this (but I have attended a PMTS camp and my skiing improved quite a bit), but I think Peter provides a valuable set of information on RealSkers and didn't want anyone to mistakenly judge RealSkiers/Peter Keelty based on the actions of PMTS/Harald Harb.

PS. My congratulations to most of the posters here and to Max_501, who seems to have handled being in this Lion's Den (of his own choosing) better than SCSA or John Mason and others in the past. It's been mostly civil, and that is an improvement. Those of you who have been here a while have heard much of this before.
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post #223 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
LOL Dutchman ! You really made my day! See, not all know about PMTS even though they can ski very well. BTW, I think your indoor skiing clip was great .
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Im from europe myselfe and I learned about PMTS here at this forum. PMTS stands for PrimaryMovementsTeachingSystem I think. Go to www.realskiers.com and check it out. And get the new book/DVD from the site or e-bay. Its the best book on modern skiing you will ever find.
Thanks I will.
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post #224 of 1165
4/15/07 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
TDK6,
Having first learned to ski using more of a DH style and discovering short SL style turns later, I would be interested in your take on the differences, and the differences one might expect to encounter learning slalom first then progressing to DH versus learning DH first and then progressing to slalom. It seems to be a continuum, not that you would ever want to try a SL turn on a DH run, but there is an interesting range of overlap between the extemes. Perhaps you could start another thread on it.
The main difference between DH and SL is not technique, its speed, so I think there are no technical limitations.
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post #225 of 1165
4/15/07 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post

I still stand by my statements that PMTS has its short comings. When I see somebody skiing pure PMTS movements in a 8-10' wide chute that is on the plus side of 40 degrees or view a first day beginner class that works, maybe I'll come away with a different viewpoint.
Ah....turning the tables on tdk6 and ignoring my post I see.

I have yet to SEE what I requested above from any PMTS poster, HH included. Come out and show it, or put it on video and get it up here.
If we here at Epic can't comprehend how it can be done and can't see it, I have to assume it can't be done. (or done by very very few)

From what I understand PMTS is all about skiing without active leg rotation, yet all I see is steering in the last clip Max posted of HH in the brown jacket. We seem to see HH arcing along on the groomers and then switching to "brushed" (same as scarving as best I can tell). That alone pretty much indicates a different set of movements.

I have yet to see a PMTS video of anybody arcing throught the bumps on an expert run or leaving a track that isn't steered.

I'd like to see something simple like stopping in a narrow lift line without the wedge, a skid (rather intense brushing) or a pole slam.

I guess it you are going to turn the tables on tdk6, try this one.

Indicate the PMTS moves in Klammers rather famous downhill run.

(please)
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post #226 of 1165
4/15/07 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
I have yet to SEE what I requested above from any PMTS poster, HH included. Come out and show it, or put it on video and get it up here.

If we here at Epic can't comprehend how it can be done and can't see it, I have to assume it can't be done. (or done by very very few)
I was about to put my ES participation away for the warmer months, but came across this post by Uncle Louie.

Boy, he hits it right on the head. Either learning is universal to us all or, basically, it's magic that only a few "initiates" are exposed to. Learning is universal to us all.

Maybe it's a whole other thread, but there really is a huge ethical issue with all this PMTS and PSIA instructional stuff. I seriously ask: Do instructors deliberately hold back on what they know?
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post #227 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
We seem to see HH arcing along on the groomers and then switching to "brushed" (same as scarving as best I can tell). That alone pretty much indicates a different set of movements.
Actually, it indicates a different timing, intensity, rate and duration of the same movements.
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post #228 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:24pm
Sure. We hold back what we know all the time. At the least it's to keep from boring you to death. At the worst, it's to trick you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do. Most of the time, it's because it's not directly relevant to the point we're trying to make. We can't expect to successfully communicate years worth of study into a 1 minute sound bite or a 1 day lesson. It's our job to condense and focus communication.
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post #229 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardboy View Post
Maybe it's a whole other thread, but there really is a huge ethical issue with all this PMTS and PSIA instructional stuff. I seriously ask: Do instructors deliberately hold back on what they know?
Yes. It is guest centered teaching -- what to tell the guest depends on the guest. You'll hold back TONS of stuff for a 5 yr old, or for a casual skier that has little contact or care for the technical details. In fact almost everyone gets info held back. Even during instructors sessions/clinics it happens.

There is too much going on when teaching something new. There is very little capacity to absorb what little info your are given. Stuffing someone's head full of minutia is not what it is about. Ultimately, it's about improving a students skiing.
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post #230 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Actually, it indicates a different timing, intensity, rate and duration of the same movements.
The way I have always understood it is that most all turns are a combination of P/T/E. Pressure (as in weighting--unweighting side to side etc etc) Turning -as in leg rotation, and edging.

All turns that I can think of use some combination of all three skills.......except one.

Putting your ski on edge and pressuring with no leg rotation does create a turn.

I hope it is obvious that the two different turns noted above would NOT have the same movements. One has rotation (leg steering) one does not....therefore different movements.

Where's the video I asked for ?
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post #231 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:47pm
This just an opinion. I have been coached by Mr. Harb and yes he is quite a skier and personable. I found some of PMTS movements very helpful in my quest for improvement. But there is no perfect system. It's up to the skier to implement and modify movements to fit his methods. Instruction helps but a skier has to find his own system. If you don't own every inch of a turn it isn't yours.
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post #232 of 1165
4/15/07 at 4:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Ah....turning the tables on tdk6 and ignoring my post I see.
Absolutely not, I answered your post ages ago. Please read this again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
If I'm skiing down a narrow steep chute I use the same turn mechanics I use on groomed. OH NO, it can't be done (he hears them groan). Well, I beg to differ. In Ski The Whole Mountain on page 90 the author says, "The steep technique is not much different from the movements you use on moderate terrain." Well guess what, he's right. The steep mountain turns I've learned from Harald fit right in with the excellent descriptions in STWM starting on page 90. The idea that PMTS doesn't take a student to all mountain skiing is nonsense. Time to get over that.
I'll see if I can get some video for a future post.
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post #233 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Putting your ski on edge and pressuring with no leg rotation does create a turn.
I'm not sure what you mean but this?
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post #234 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Actually, it indicates a different timing, intensity, rate and duration of the same movements.
Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. Very well said.
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post #235 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
This just an opinion. I have been coached by Mr. Harb and yes he is quite a skier and personable. I found some of PMTS movements very helpful in my quest for improvement. But there is no perfect system.
Slider, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I have no problem with yours.

I will say that after 6 years of study I have not found any weak links in PMTS. It continues to strengthen my skiing in any conditions I find myself in (as you can attest to, we have darn near all conditions at Mt. Bachelor!).
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post #236 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
...but now I see that PMTS is in some cases and at particulary very high devotion levels really quite limiting.
now changed to

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
PMTS is not limiting in any way

So, which is it?
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post #237 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Let me ask you something. Since we skidd our turns in BPST how do you suggest we trigger the skidd?
For starters, from looking at your video I'd say you are using hip rotation which is not taught in PMTS. If you look at my video you can see that I'm trying to clean up the rotation I have remaining on my right side.

In PMTS we do not consider the BPST to be a skidded turn. This is because we are using carving movements that continue to access the shape of the ski as a turning tool. We don't trigger a skid, we just back off on the tipping angles. We make exactly the same movements, but rather than getting the ski and foot over to the sidewall we keep it less angled. When you try to carve an arc shorter than the ski radius and use good carving technique, you get a BPST.
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post #238 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:23pm
What PSIA and PMTS both seem to teach equally well is ENDURANCE... This thread is proof of it I think.
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post #239 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:45pm
Uncle,

When you tip your skis, your femurs rotate in their hip sockets. That is the rotation that you are seeing. The carved run has another movement thrown in, which is counteraction (we'd just say counter). Counteraction absorbs the torque on the heels that come with tipping. If you just tip, there will be tendency for the heels to skid outwards (the feet literally want to stay pointing straight with the shin). But if you counteract, this movement enables the heels to stay put.

So, if you want the heels to stay put you use a lot of counteraction. If you do not want that to occur, and you want to slide you use less. Same movement, different intensity. The point is not that the exact same moves create different turns -that's silly. But if you look at what PMTS calls essential movements, and blend them with different intensity, timing, duration and rate, you can move between laying down arcs to turns well under the radius of the ski.
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post #240 of 1165
4/15/07 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Sure. We hold back what we know all the time. At the least it's to keep from boring you to death. At the worst, it's to trick you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise do. Most of the time, it's because it's not directly relevant to the point we're trying to make. We can't expect to successfully communicate years worth of study into a 1 minute sound bite or a 1 day lesson. It's our job to condense and focus communication.
Did you honestly miss the point I was making or are you playing semantic games?

Was the intent of my post to state that in each lesson everything an instructor knows about skiing supposed to be communicated to the student?

Obviously, the answer is no. I did not mean that. What I asked was in the context of Uncle Louie's piercing observation:

"If we here at Epic can't comprehend how it can be done and can't see it, I have to assume it can't be done."

That is a gem of an observation. It underscores the entire basis of all modern education. Either things can be learned by everybody through the presentation of material or it takes a "special" skill to learn things that separates the inside elite from the rest of us. You know, it's the science vs. clergy debate, it's rational cause and effect vs. magic, it's facts vs. lies.

I'll rephrase my question: Do PSIA and PMTS instructors hide behind their status and deliberately not give direct instruction to correct student mistakes?
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