Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 7

Hi Max and the Rusty,
I didn't think I'd post in this thread but your most recent comments closely relate to some things I've been working on and thinking about. Ever since I took a few PMTS camps I recognized the advantage of and have maintained the intent of keeping my old outside/new inside ski pulled back. To that I have added the intent of keeping both feet pulled back under my hips. That worked very well for me but not as consistently as I wanted.

Mosh's exercises better enlightened me as to the "functional tension" I needed to maintain in the upper legs, pelvis, and lower back, and core, in order to stay "over" my skis. I have started to think about this "functional tension" as a secondary movement (it's not really a movement) to the primary movement of pulling my foot back. When I am successful in this (and now because of Mosh's exercises that is happening to a much greater degree) the flexing/tipping of the old outside leg much more effectively and efficiently brings my body down and across into the new turn. I don't feel at all like I'm moving my hips "diagonally across into the new turn" only that I am holding them in a position relative to my feet that allows the release (via flexing/tipping) to do all this for me.

I have always "sensed" this functional tension to some degree when I watch skiers who can maintain great fore/aft balance. Harald is clearly one of these. I also know another (a recognized world class skier) who seems to do it with even less effort (I think it's part of his innate character). With my new found experiences I now can gain even more from watching people like that ski and trying to imitate them.

Bob Peters, still there?
Look at the 4th sequence , where Max501 is making larger radius turns. Freeze frame just after the 1st transition where he is headed toward the camera. Notice how highly edged the skis are? If his legs were straight at the point his hips would be about 1-2 feet farther downhill of his skis. His upper body would have to be severely counterbalanced at that point or else he would just fall onto his inside ski. That much counterbalancing at that point in the turn requires more strength than most people have. Also, he could not get that much free foot tipping if that leg was straight. BTW, If he was going alot faster, none of this would matter so much.
That deep flexing (and staying flexed through most of the high c) is one of the key ingredients of carving on steeps. With even more and longer flexing, Max can (and I'm sure does) make turns that look very similiar on 40 degree slopes. The pitch would move the maximum pressure a bit later in the turn, that would probably be the only real difference.

Not really. If your looking at your feet to tell how you're doing, then THAT is the movement pattern you will replicate when you are NOT looking at your feet. You will attempt to pull the feet back under a STATIONARY upper body. That won't work. The upper body needs to be allowed to move forwards. It's part of the balance equation.

Thinking out loud

Counteracting movement plus inside foot pull back should allow for some tip lead. Is this true? Look in ESSENTIALS p.18 frame 9. and p.26 frame 9. I am having problems with strong counteracting movements that produce no tip/boot lead because of the inside foot pull back negating it. I see a leading inside ski at the same part of the turn throughout the book.
In the release exercises counteracting movements are applied after the fall line whereas in the context of the sample turn; counteracting, counterbalancing, pullback and tipping movements all happen at/between frames 5 & 6. I appreciate HH's view but this disconnect is hard for me. Oh well. On my tilt board (tilting exercises) I want to counteract after neutral so bad that I am trying to come up with some device/modification that will let me do so.
Pull back to the extent of removing the counteracting movement is a way to introduce rotation, which is not recommended.
These are observations and are not intended as MA on your skiing.

Max,

I don't see how you could of without moving the hips. But if the focus of flexing got your hips to move relative to everything else, fine. My thinking is that if you got the hips closer to over the skis, you'd be able to flex more.

Still here (barely).

It's interesting you should pick out the sequence involving the flattest pitch and the longest radius turns as your illustration. Your earlier post said that the flex-to-release was "required" for carved, short-radius turns on steep slopes.

The sequence you cite doesn't apply. The turns aren't short and the hill's not steep.

I'm not a biomechanical genius, but when I just flex both legs my hips drop straight down. I can also flex my legs AND move my hips horizontally while they are changing vertical position if I choose to do so. One may not be consciously aware of the muscles that are being used to do this, but one must have intent for this to happen and different muscles are being used. If you do this standing at home and then compare the muscular sensations to Mosh's exercise, they will be eerily similar. I also submit that physical flexing of the new inside leg alone can not cause the hips to move when the majority of the weight is over the old inside leg. I will concede that the mental focus of attempting to flex the inside leg CAN unconsciously cause the pelvic and abdominal muscles to move the hips into a position that will allow the inside leg to flex. It's a subtle distinction but an important one. If someone is having trouble making the movements solely by focusing on flexing the inside ski, a conscious focus on moving the hips can be used as a backdoor approach to getting to the same end result. That's all I'm trying to do in this fictional coaching session.

I don't care if a skier thinks about moving their hips across their skis or not. But if you're going to make turns with your hips inside the turn, then they have to cross the skis in between turns no matter how it happens. It's my 2 cents that part of the reason the release is late is because the hips stay inside the old turn for too long. Why is it that when you do flex the inside ski it comes off the snow? Why does it stay on the snow in your right turns and during your retraction turns? What's different?

It seems we cannot reach consensus in this discussion since PMTS does not really talk about hips. PMTS talks about movements. Some adjustments have to be made on both sides for reaching agreement.

In Austria there is much more focus on hips than what I can see that there is in PMTS. The skiing in itself is not different but the approach is. This is maybe the reason why Max focus is not on his hips but on movements that are listed in the manual.

IMHO the focus on pulling back the inside foot is dangerous in cases where tendency to hip rotation is used as primary trigger of skidding.

PMTS movement patterns are correct. Its a very good no BS approach to describe and teach skiing at all levels (except IMO absolute beginners, kids in particular). At first it surpriced me that it was so hard for PSIA affiliated persons to accept such a good consept but now I see that PMTS is in some cases and at particulary very high devotion levels really quite limiting.

Nuf said, so I will say more

This is the crux of it. In my view Max is under fine coaching from HH and Max has an unbelievable comprehension of his technique. I think PMTS is more to the point than ATS. How many instructors do you know that could have this discourse and support their views as well as Max has shown in this thread? FEW OF THEM COULD!
PMTS boils down to... no wait you don't have to boil it, that is an advantage.
PMTS also is a direct path to arcing/carving and high end all mountain skiing. An argument can be made that ATS/PSIA shaped turn lays the foundation (from wedge to wedge Christy on up) for all mountain skiing but there is no way that a skidded turn with strong leg rotation is the root of arcing. Bolter

Really? You need to support this claim.

Hey TDK6, I agree with you here. It is important not to allow the hips to square up or lose a bit of counter or bad things happen. We need some degree of counter in the hips until the transition where edge release movements occur IMO.

b

IMO other posters here in this thread has been onto stuff that's not in the PMTS hand book. This information has been neglected.

You dont have to convince me that PMTS can produce WC skiers. I think its a brilliant consept and I know it works because its very close to what is thaught in Austria and other places. Using Diana to prove PMTS can take you all the way to FIS level is quite childish actually. Look at Bode, everybody is bashing his skiing but he is still one of the worlds best race skiers. It doesent have that much to do with what country you come from and what system took you there. There are simply too many variables.

Interesting video of HH. In order to be able to determine if that is good or bad skiing we would need a reference. You for example. Do you have any filming of yourselfe on that same run?

In order for this discussion to take us somewhere we would need to drop out all the words having anything to do with systems or persons and consentrate on skiing. Is that a bad ide?

I said IMO. Thats my opinion. It can change offcourse. And sure you can teach PMTS to kids and beginners. My statement is based on my own experiance of 15 years of teaching and what I believe works the best. I thaught my own 5 and 9 year old kids some PMTS and for them it worked great but they are allredy good for their age.

As I allredy said, you dont have to convince me that PMTS works. Its a great system but I can list you 1000 skiers on the world cup and at FIS level that never even heared of PMTS. Are they flexing through the transition? Yes! In fact, all of the movements that PMTS lists in their manual such as counterbalance, counteracting etc are all used by WC skiers. Thats what makes PMTS so good. But using Diana to prove your point really lowers your credability. All I can tell you that if you saw high level 3 austrian ski instructors out on the mountain you would fall on your butt.