Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video - Page 5

Max501,

I am not being condescending at all! I just noticed that earlier here you dismissed VSP's comments and checked in with your mentor (HH) before drawing your conclusions. This to me demonstrates that you are not thinking for yourself but trusting one persons knowledge. I am intrigued by PMTS and have said absolutely nothing negative about it. However I do believe there are some "limitations". When viewing PMTS skiers, including Harold, skiing in difficult terrain I see elements of great skiing that PMTS denies are happening or rename the movements to fit it's cause (ie, "brushed carve").

I am not attacking you or PMTS, just making a point that you have done very well in the short time you have been skiing and that there is even more effortless skiing available to you, or any skier for that matter, if you are open to the idea.

I to appreciate your posts and contributions here and believe you are the best liason between PMTS and Epic I have seen here! I hope to participate in a PMTS camp or two in the future because I want to learn all I can and take what is good with PMTS and apply it to my skiing. Will I still use a blend of skills in my skiing from what I have learned to date?....you betcha!

Thank you Max501, I hope we get to ski together one day!!

bud

So are you saying that PSIA teaches and advocates excessive rotary in upper level skiing? Are you saying, unless I ski PMTS way I can not possibly carve a turn? Are you saying that PMTS is superior when you have never tryed PSIA? You just subscribe to a source who is promoting his own gig (no fault of his) and trying to differentiate his focus from a more holistic focus of all the skills involved in skiing? I believe the mechanics in PMTS are great! but they are a piece of the pie not the whole thing and I am entitled to that POV.

OK then...

Don't sell yourself short Max. We often forget the perspective of the beginner who looks at the steep black runs and thinks "that's impossible". I have to be careful when I'm teaching beginners because simple things like skiing backwards on a beginner run can sometimes freak them out.

It is only my opinion, but I believe that one does not have to be an Eric D to be an expert. Here's a dictionary definition of expert:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source ex·pert (ěk'spûrt') Pronunciation Key
n.

1. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

Sure, "high" is a relative term. But for beginners and non-skiers there should be no argument that you are displaying a high degree of skill. Certainly from your history here you have displayed a high degree of knowledge. There may be a long road ahead leading from where you are to where you want to be. It's been my experience that the further along the road you go, the longer the road ahead gets. It is sometimes easy to forget that others may already see you at the end of the road.

Rotary...

Harald is using rotary. I've been playing with this and while only a L2 instructor, I think the term we keep missing is PRIMARY. Primary Movements.... to lift or lighten and tip the ski as a primary move, the leg will turn. I defy anyone balance on one foot, and barely lift the other foot, pull it back and tip it to the little toe side without letting the foot turn to the outside just a little.. It's a secondary outcome of the movement he is trying to teach but it's there..

You have to control this rotary very carefully to create the "brushed carve" or carved turns with a little skidding to not wash out the tails and my SSD likes to call that guiding.. Rotary control can be both to keep from pivoting or creating a pivot depending on the need.

Max is a very good skier from what I've seen, and has selected a path to where he wants to go. No problem with that. Hopefully he will continue to engage us and include us in his journey.

Bud, what do you know about expert skiing? You're no expert. So how do you know what it takes to get there. As for caliber of coaching, I don't know VSP and have never seen him ski but let's use your sacred criteria Bud ,PSIA , to judge. Was Ric ever a member of the D-team? The answer is no. HH was. End of discussion. No waffling, no woulda shoulda coulda. Simple answer is no. To me that alone means that HH has a better understanding of PSIA then you ever will. He's moved past it so why would Max want to look back using an analysis based on an old methodology by a less qualified person? That's not being open minded, that's being stupid. Only someone who clearly has an agenda like you would have that mind set.

I think if someone needs to take the blinders off it's you. But you can't because then you wouldn't be able to maintain your status of bootfitter to PSIA stars.

"Checked in with your mentor". No that's not condescending at all. I put Max's skiing up against anything in that Aspen video.

There has been so much whining on this forum about how HH behaves and yet here was a simple thread that has degraded into PMTS bashing. OMG, you should be so lucky to HH give you the level of instruction he is giving Max. If you spend anytime reading HH's books or posts on skiing you would realize he is prob one of a handful of people that really understand all of the mechanics and biomechanics involved. But what makes him unique is his ability to communicate it. I invite you to compare anything HH has written with Bob BArnes' latest manifesto that I believe is on the PNW site.

Man the skiing is unbelievable here. Just came in from 4 hours of powder skiing. What an April!

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, step back a little , and do a long, controlled exhale!


When I offered my thoughts about Max's skiing, I was mistaken that the footage was placed for comment(as most are). He and I had a few comments back and forth with each other, and he has made it clear that he wants to follow a particular syllabus. That's OK! I respect that.
I, myself, am extremely selective about who I listen to regarding my own skiing. Why shouldn't he also have that right?

My comment that MAX is not an expert was not made as one of disrespect, merely an observable fact. One which he himself confirmed. So that point should not even be in this discussion.

When asked to clarify certain ideas or points of view by MAX, I offered to if my thoughts would be of benefit. (My analogy about eating the sandwich) When he declined, we both agreed to disagree, and that was enough. There is no reason to turn this back into another PSIA/PMTS bashing. In fact, this has become even more bitter and vitriol filled than usual!

And I would ask everyone to chill out!

Some of you may or may not know this, but I have known Harald for almost 20 years. There was a time when he had helped me with some boot alignment issues I was having, and when he was on the PSIA D-Team, he and I had skied together on several occasions.
I have respect for his knowledge, his passion, and his ability! I may not feel that his disrespect for others in the profession is very professional in its own right, and yes, I am offended by it at times. But this does not mean the man does not have skills/knowledge. I have no doubt that over the years I have offended a few people too.

If anyone cares to notice- I have never called HH out about anything on this, or any other board. Sure, I have made my pointed little comments about certain aspects of his marketing campaign, or PMTS, but I have never written a single word of disrespect about him, personally. I'm not going to start now! (now, SCSA, on the other hand.... )

Though I disagree with the negative nature of his writings about PSIA, and certain individuals, and that his system is incomplete by virtue of its omissions, there are some facets of PMTS that I find interesting. But just because HH has written them in a book does not mean that he is their sole inventor. There are tens of thousands of ski instrs around the world, and for HH to believe that only he has ever thought of something is about as myopic as believing there is absolutely no life anywhere but here on Earth.

There is truly very little 'new' in the world of ski instruction. Almost everything available to date (including PMTS) has been circulated, tried, re-tried, and mixed around so many times over the decades, that there really is no ONE WAY to teach. There are more and less efficient ways to teach. There are more and less effective ways to communicate. There are more and less effective mechanics in any given situation.

NOBODY- not PSIA, not PMTS, not the Austrian, the French, or the Swiss systems, not CSIA..... NOBODY has a lock on all the very best ways to do something. We are all out there, plagiarizing, copying, and taking from each system. I have often said that if I have 3 truly original ideas during my career, I will have had an exceptional career!

This is the nature of real ski instruction!

It has been said that I have a PSIA bias. I would have to agree since I am not a dyed in the wool PMTS'er. Nor am I a Canadian, a Swiss, a Kiwi, or any of the other countries I have worked, taught or coached in. But I have taken what I feel is the very best information from every system I have come in contact with, and melded it into what I do out on the hill with my guests, or in training instrs. So in that regard, I am not pure PSIA. There are some things PSIA endorses which I personally feel are contradictory to good skiing.

Being 'pure' anything is maybe not the best recipe for versatility. A thoroughbred race horse may be fast on the track, but give me a good quarterhorse out in the back country, anytime!

Yes, I have been a PSIA examiner since 1979. But this only implies that I supposedly know enough to evaluate other instrs against a standard. Being selected to the D-Team tryouts several times meant that maybe I could ski too. Nothing more. But my geatest learning experiences came from coaching elite and WC racers. I have no doubt that I learned as much during that period as my athletes did!

I would ask that each person who posts on this board be allowed to pursue their interest in this wonderful sport however they wish to. To what ever level, in what ever direction, for what ever reasons. Just like I respect each persons rights to what ever religion they may adhere to, just don't try to force it on anyone else.

Sorry, BTS, but I am usually on the operator end of the video camera. There has been footage shot of me by other people over the years, but I have no clue where any of that might be. I guess the only significant footage is me doing the pivot slips on the standards video for PSIA-RM. (I would have killed to have gotten some footage of Tommy Moe and I skiing together a couple of weeks ago!)

I've been saying this for months now. Change the DIRT and you've got it all. IMO, the turns modelled in "the essentials" represent a new "centreline".

There was an earlier thread in which I proposed precisely this notion -- there's tons of rotary in PMTS, it is merely generated, controlled and addressed in a different fashion - through balancing movements.

Here's my perspective: The CSIA have 4 "planes" of balance, fore and aft, lateral, vertical and rotational. PMTS movements maintain balance in all 4 planes.

PMTS skiers do not twist their legs and try to maintain balance or recover while doing so. They make tipping, flexing and recentering movements (inside foot pull back) that result in movements in the 4 "planes" that maintains their balance over a moving/turning ski.

The focus on what causes the feet to turn the skis is different from regular pivotting/rotation. Some say that PMTS uses a subset of the movements that you use. If you can also do the PMTS movements, then that is true. If you cannot do the PMTS movements, they are foreign to you -- they are not a subset, they are a different set.

Are these movements sufficient to manage good skiing in all conditions? Max's video says they are enough.

Now you can argue all you want that Max is missing out on something really special. It's not pivot entry - in the essentials, HH says you can do that too using these techniques.

So what do you think? Are these movements good enough to represent a "standardized" model or not?

Nice post BigE.

There have been many inaccurate things said in this thread. Way too many to try to address. Lots of heated thought being expressed. its sad to me that so many of you are attacking poor Max, who has consistently shown nothing but class in his posts on this forum. Max is but a student of skiing, and enthusiastic one that is showing killer progress in only 6 years. Regardless of what you think of PMTS or your perceptions about its supposed weaknesses or your perceptions about HH the man, Max does not deserve the response he has gotten on this thread. Some of you should really be ashamed of yourself...particularly the "professionals". I know of quite a few L2 PSIA instructors that do not ski as well as Max does right now after only 6 years. These are pros that have been skiing for MANY years.

And BTW VSP, I have little doubt that you can rip on your skis like nobody else. I don't need to see video to know that, its obvious from your posts that you know what you're talking about and carry plenty of confidence about it too. I just think that your unsolicited long list of laundry items for Max's skiing was loaded with angst towards HH and that was not fair to Max.

cheers

BTS-
Please re-read post # 132.... Angst toward HH? I think I just posted to the contrary!

Frankly VSP, I'm FAAARRR more interested in what you have to say about the scarving concept.

Big E:

Once again you have articulated this very well. PMTS has a completely different emphasis. This is what makes it unique. It is also the only complete program aimed at the GP.

VSP:

Good post and I don't think anyone really has an issue with your analysis. In fact it was prob one of only about 3 that I have ever read on this site that actually made some sense. The issue is with people who want to force feed that analysis. That has nothing to do with you.

I don't think that HH claims that he invented these movements. He is merely the first to put them together in a thoughtful and understandable system. I'm sorry but Essential is about tipping and balance. PSIA is about turning your feet. It has been for years going back to Centerline. Rotational skills are dominant and taught that way from the wedge up. This is a fundamental difference. I personally never think about turning my feet or femur or anything else. I think about tipping my skis on edge and I use that same movement pattern no matter what the terrain or conditions. That doesn't mean that I carve every turn but whether I carve or not my tail is not washing out.

I also think that it is difficult for people that are and have been part of the PSIA system to truly be independent. VSP you may be the exception to the rule especially now that you have essentially left. But for many conformity is required in order for you to move up the ladder. It's a very political group. Is it changing? Yes but like an aircraft carrier trying to make a turn it takes a long time. If you rock the boat you're not going to be going very far. No examiner jacket for trouble makers. Sorry but that's the nature of the beast. Think back to the 70's how many women or men got the pin for other talents?

As far as credentials go, I learned a long time ago that they are meaningless. I have wasted more time skiing with Eastern examiners who could not ski and could not teach than I care to remember. That's why I pay the fine and only update once every three years and I do that at a Spring Rally with a group of like minded ex-pros and we just rip and get stoned and ignore whoever we have as the examiner unless of course he's one of the 3-4 that can ski. Out west is also different. You guys have better skiers and more professionals. In the east there are many weekend warriors who just get off on putting on a uniform.

Max,

I just might be able to see 4 degrees out of alignment in 2 turns, even in an online video. It might be helpful for those following at home if you would tell us exactly what your canting is on each foot.

The main thing I don't understand is how losing lateral balance on your right foot could be causing the left ski tip to rise up. The fact that the left ski is being lifted at all is an indicator that weight is being transferred to the right foot (i.e. new outside foot). This is consistent with the PMTS direction to establish the new "stance" foot. But having a human transferring weight to an unbalanced foot just does not sound right. It's hard to understand how you are not trusting your right foot when you've got the left foot entirely off the ground.

The other thing I'm not understanding is why the focus on pulling the feet back relative to the hips is not forcing the inside ski tip to stay on the snow. If the hips were coming forward over the inside ski, there's no way the tip could be lifted. One thing I like about the PMTS phantom turn and the "flex to release" mantra is that it encourages "fore-agonal" movement of the CM into the new turn. Is the canting of the right foot preventing/inhibiting the leg extension of the new stance foot that is normally used to trigger the fore-agonal hip movement?

Harald's a great coach. He should be able to quickly make the subtle tweaks necessary to resolve this trivial little quirk. I'm a strong believer in the value of listening to one voice that you can trust. As such, I ask that you look at page 106 of ACBEAS1, pictures a-c. Picture "a" looks eerily similar to some of your tip lift stills. Pics "b-c" show relative hip movement that I don't see in your left turns. I have a different explanation of what is happening here, but since you have not asked for MA, I'll keep it to myself.

For my own benefit, I see in ACBEAS1 on page 192 that bowlegged skiers "must make skiing movements with the upper body..." to do a release. This gets me a little closer to understanding how canting can effect fore/aft balance, but not all the way there.

Thanks again for sharing. The accompanying dialog helps to explain a lot.

I believe what Max was trying to say is that PREVIOUSLY his right foot was out of alignment but now he feels it is corrected. However, he has built up a habit of mishandling his right foot due to skiing with bad alignment for too long, which he is now in the process of trying to eradicate from his skiing. Max please correct me if I am wrong here. But that is how I understood it.

I'm at work now and can't view the video to observe Rusty's comments about lifting your left tip, but I will later tonight.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how much lateral imbalance of the right foot is a direct cause of your inside ski tip lift during release on your left turns. I don't see it and it does not make biomechanical sense to me in this specific case. Let us know if focusing on pulling the inside foot back does not resolve this for you. There may be other methods that can get you to the same end result that are still consistent with the PMTS methodology.

You seem very sure of everything. Do you have any ide why you get out of balance when you use the old habit of rotating into the turn and pushing the tails out to the side? Is the rotating causing you to "push" out the tails or is it just something that bad that happens as a result of rotating into the turn?

Are you saying that if you have perfect alignment you never lose your balance to the inside or the outside? If this statement is not true, how do you correct such flaws if you have very good or perfect alignment? Small movements or even smaller?

In other words you are convinced that you need to be pulling that inside foot back more than what you are dooing and if you just pull it back the tip will not come off the snow?

Max,

Sure that makes sense. I just don't see this happening in your skiing on your left turns. And that is to your credit.

If you have the lifting of the inside ski worked into your system the way I have seen older PMTS techniques based on its very hard to get rid of that habbit of allways lifting the inside ski up in the air. It means that you are very outside ski oriented. For me the path away from this kind of style came through simultanious ski rebound and a two footed relese pattern insted of allways basicly just stepping onto the new outside ski.

Lifting the inside ski up in the air is not allways a bad thing. In WC skiing you can take a look at swedes like larsson and anja persson. Both lift their inside ski (tip) up in the air at allmost every turn. Here is a short video I made on the subject that most of you allredy have seen many times. Maybe this can be of some help in this discussion and shed some new light on issues like for aft balance and canting....
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=6DB5ABF4

That's a great clip TDK. There's a huge difference between that skiing and Max's. Note the positioning and movement of the hips. Please note that I said that lifting the tip is an indicator of fore/aft balance issues. Racers have been known to get in the back seat on purpose. That clip is a good example of this technique being used effectively. Max is not quite there yet.