EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video

post #1 of 1165
4/10/07 at 7:08pm
Thread Starter 
The following video is a collection of runs that show the bullet proof short turn (BPST) as learned in PMTS and practiced on groomed terrain and then used off piste.

There are two carving clips included. The interesting thing is that we were not working on carving at all yet my angles increased ALOT simply by working on the BPST. Strange but true.

On our last day we were surprised with some Colorado powder. It ranged in depth from 6 to 10" (wind transference) and was a combination of powder and heavy windpack (at the higher elevations). The first powder run is a typical blue run in terms of pitch. The 2nd powder run is fairly steep and I'm guessing it would be at least a black run.

The three bump clips are on double black and black runs. The lighting was flat and there was plenty of snow dumping. This made seeing the bumps before you hit them tough. I know the video flattens the runs out so the following picture might give you an idea as to the pitch. Notice the tiny people far off in the distance and no slope visible between the top of the run and them.



Best Quality Video: http://blip.tv/file/195915?filename=...ortTurn836.wmv

Slightly smaller but will allow downlaod of the original: http://www.vimeo.com/clip:168035
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 1165
4/10/07 at 7:32pm
Looking good
Reply
post #3 of 1165
4/10/07 at 8:09pm
Dude.......you need shorter poles.
Reply
post #4 of 1165
4/10/07 at 8:12pm
Thread Starter 
I'm on 165cm SuperShapes in all of the clips.
Reply
post #5 of 1165
4/10/07 at 10:51pm
Max 501,

Why do you keep looking down at your feet on just about every turn? Your head looks like a "bobblehead" on the dashboard of a '57 Chevy?!

Don't do that!

bud
Reply
post #6 of 1165
4/10/07 at 11:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Why do you keep looking down at your feet on just about every turn?
I was working on pulling the feet back so I'm looking down to see how far I've got them pulled back and then I'm trying to pull them back even more the next time.
Reply
post #7 of 1165
4/11/07 at 2:40am
Great skiing Max and some serious edge angles at places!

How was the video shot? It's great how it seems to follow you down the hill, also seems a little above the slope, was it from a helicopter?
Reply
post #8 of 1165
4/11/07 at 4:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I was working on pulling the feet back so I'm looking down to see how far I've got them pulled back and then I'm trying to pull them back even more the next time.
You really can't effectively "see" how far you're pulling your feet back, Max. You have to feel that. The attempt to "see" can lead to some really bad habits. It changes your body alignment.

Nice skiing and great camera work. How was that arranged?
Reply
post #9 of 1165
4/11/07 at 4:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I was working on pulling the feet back so I'm looking down to see how far I've got them pulled back and then I'm trying to pull them back even more the next time.
LOL, you have the video to rely on, look ahead.

I lot of skidding in earlier segments. Some very nice carving in the middle. There are sections where it looks like you are trying to force the turn instead of letting the ski flow.
Start Haus Insider

Bringing World Cup caliber ski equipment and service to all skiers - from pro ski racers to everyday all mountain skiers and into the...

» Get the latest news and updates at the Start Haus sponsor page.
Reply
post #10 of 1165
4/11/07 at 5:25am
Very nice.

You are not able to pressure the forward section of the ski. I do this and can see it in your skiing early in the vid. What happens, you appear to be following your skis or riding. It's a form of being in the back seat.

Getting your feet back is what's needed.

...but you are a fantastic skier.
Reply
post #11 of 1165
4/11/07 at 6:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I lot of skidding in earlier segments.
What you are seeing is a controlled brushing. It differs from skidding in that it is controlled and quite intentional.
Reply
post #12 of 1165
4/11/07 at 6:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
You really can't effectively "see" how far you're pulling your feet back, Max. You have to feel that. The attempt to "see" can lead to some really bad habits.
Have to disagree here. I was able to see it very well (and of course feel it). I'm a visual learner so seeing the immediate results of a strong pull back feeling is helpful. Good point about bad habits forming, gotta be careful of that.
Reply
post #13 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
You are not able to pressure the forward section of the ski.
In the carving clips it looks to me like I'm pressuring the tips as I see snow from the tip down. So I'm guessing you are talking about other turns. Would you point one out for me so I can take a look.
Reply
post #14 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
There are sections where it looks like you are trying to force the turn instead of letting the ski flow.
Good eyes Phil. The BPST a tight, fast, speed controlling turn. What you've picked up on is that I'm getting on edge a hair later than I'd like which results in a harder edge set towards the bottom of the turn. To fix this I need to tip a bit stronger at the release and increase the pull back move.
Reply
post #15 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:19am
I see a number of turns with this sequence:
pull feet back
increased tip pressure causes ski to hook faster than you want
head drop...now you are even more out of balance and thrown forward
You bust a little snow off the tips, regain balanced stance

I don't know how to fix that exactly, but I'd say don't rush the tips and keep the head up. Maybe go do some face plants on ski blades.

Great skiing in the carved sequences!
Reply
post #16 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:35am
So Max how was it video'd? The camera angle and the way it moves down the hill with you?
Reply
post #17 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
So Max how was it video'd? The camera angle and the way it moves down the hill with you?
I'm either skiing towards or away from the camera. I don't know what you mean by the angle but the movement part is the just zooming in and out.
Reply
post #18 of 1165
4/11/07 at 7:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
I see a number of turns with this sequence:
pull feet back
increased tip pressure causes ski to hook faster than you want
head drop...now you are even more out of balance and thrown forward
You bust a little snow off the tips, regain balanced stance
Great input. Can you point me to a few of these so I can watch frame by frame.

Edit: I can't find this sequence. What I see in places is looking down at the skis but its always at the transition which happens to be the place where I think about pulling the feet back. Looking down at transition doesn't change pressure much (if at all) as I'm in the float at that point.
Reply
post #19 of 1165
4/11/07 at 9:05am
Max,
I'll second Slider's comment on your poles. It looks like making them 2 inches shorter would help your overall body alignment especiallly as you move through the "pull-back" phase and make everything flow better. I know that the coaches you work with take equipment pretty seriously so if they have a reason for the longer poles so be it. I'm wearing my race coach hat here and a change in pole length has worked really well for a lot of athletes I have worked with at all levels. Really nice skiing.
Have fun.
Reply
post #20 of 1165
4/11/07 at 9:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyr View Post
Max,
I'll second Slider's comment on your poles. It looks like making them 2 inches shorter would help your overall body alignment especiallly as you move through the "pull-back" phase and make everything flow better.
The poles I'm using are adjustable and I've been playing with different lengths. Still haven't found the perfect all around length. In steep powder runs I like them a bit longer. For groomed runs a bit shorter. For bumps it depends on the pitch as well as the size of the bumps. What I need is a set of poles that will automatically adjust their length to suit the terrain.
Reply
post #21 of 1165
4/11/07 at 9:46am
Max,
Sounds like you have a lot on your mind. If it fits in with your next video session I'd be really curious to see a similar sequence with the poles set up longer and shorter to compare.
Have fun.
Reply
post #22 of 1165
4/11/07 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Can you point me to a few of these so I can watch frame by frame.

Edit: Looking down at transition doesn't change pressure much (if at all) as I'm in the float at that point.
Just went skiing, then replayed it. I think you are right, the looking down isn't intentional in the frames I was referring to. Look at the powder sequences, second and third from the end. I think you get thrown forward because you start with feet back (good) but don't let them drift forward as the turn progresses (bad), giving a J turn, forward jolt, and a head bob.

Please bear in mind that while I study a turn from time to time, I don't really know much about technique.
Reply
post #23 of 1165
4/11/07 at 2:16pm
Max_501,

I really like the way you ski. There is no question that your videos show strong PMTS techniques, great angles and a feel for the snow that is very impressive. Your skis are doing all the right things, but it seems that your body is working too hard.

To be completely honest, I cannot help but think that PMTS should not look that "forced". The head bobbing (note that you sometimes go as far as to counter an up move in the hips with a downward motion of the head), the quick retraction and quick edge changes, the bent over stance, seem to be more challenging than the up-move you are trying very hard to avoid.

I am not going to defend the up-move, but from a PMTS perspective, I struggle with this contrived effort to avoid the up-move. I have to believe that you can relax and move the CM into your new turn without such strong/active retraction. Yes, you may have a slight vertical shift in the upper body without the aggressive retraction, but is that such a crime? Isn't the main goal to avoid the pivot entry and achieve a good High C turn?

Just wondering about all this, because I do believe that PMTS is more efficent than the up-move and pivot entry, but the effort you are making to have a perfectly quiet upper body seems to go against all that efficiency argument.

I may get blasted over these comments, but I feel it had to be said. I hope you don't take it the wrong way.
Reply
post #24 of 1165
4/11/07 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post

I am not going to defend the up-move, but from a PMTS perspective, I struggle with this contrived effort to avoid the up-move. I have to believe that you can relax and move the CM into your new turn without such strong/active retraction. Yes, you may have a slight vertical shift in the upper body without the aggressive retraction, but is that such a crime? Isn't the main goal to avoid the pivot entry and achieve a good High C turn?

Just wondering about all this, because I do believe that PMTS is more efficent than the up-move and pivot entry, but the effort you are making to have a perfectly quiet upper body seems to go against all that efficiency argument.
Just out of curiosity, does it have to be a given that a pivot entry follows an up-move? Why is there this assumed direct correllation between the two?

Personally, I don't think one necessarily follows the other and I think that's part of this whole debate about what's so "wrong" with extending at the transition rather than flexing. It seems like I see all kinds of very good skiers who *don't* use flexion to release into the next turn but also don't follow their transition with a pivot entry. The videos of Cannonball and the Italian team both show this, I think.

Why can't a carved turn follow a extend-to-release as easily as it would follow a flex-to-release?
Reply
post #25 of 1165
4/11/07 at 2:54pm
Max, the camera person then did a really smooth job of zooming in and out, it gives the impression that they are moving along at the same speed as you My compliments to the shooter!
Reply
post #26 of 1165
4/11/07 at 3:08pm
flexingd deeply at the transition is required for a tight high C. it really helps on steeper slopes as it enhances the counterbalancing (the hips are not as far downhill of the feet)
Reply
post #27 of 1165
4/11/07 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Just out of curiosity, does it have to be a given that a pivot entry follows an up-move? Why is there this assumed direct correllation between the two?

Personally, I don't think one necessarily follows the other and I think that's part of this whole debate about what's so "wrong" with extending at the transition rather than flexing. It seems like I see all kinds of very good skiers who *don't* use flexion to release into the next turn but also don't follow their transition with a pivot entry. The videos of Cannonball and the Italian team both show this, I think.

Why can't a carved turn follow a extend-to-release as easily as it would follow a flex-to-release?
There is no question that an up move can be followed by pure carving. In fact, done fast enough, with a full extension and a strong favoring of the outside ski, the inside ski can begin turning downhill (at transition) before the downhill ski actually completes the last turn in one ski length. I know of no earlier edge engagement possible, which of course, is one of PMTS's most vocal comments about their system.

The post above by MilesB was made while I was typing.

Max...that is some really fine skiing.
Reply
post #28 of 1165
4/11/07 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
flexingd deeply at the transition is required for a tight high C. it really helps on steeper slopes as it enhances the counterbalancing (the hips are not as far downhill of the feet)
Required?

Are there any frames in Max's video that would illustrate that theory?
Reply
post #29 of 1165
4/11/07 at 3:49pm
Hi, Max!

Nice skiing, as usual! Somewhat similar comments as the last time you posted for MA, but you're skiing even better! I know you'll deny you use it, but... Nice independent leg steering! (Your hips and upper body move down the hill independent of your femurs and lower legs, which are turning, tipping, and shaping the radius of your turn.) A bit of tail push as opposed to letting the tips lead you into the turn. You've improved your "reaching" of your CM across the skis in the current racing style as opposed to moving your body straight down the hill in the old style. VERY smooth, effective, and functional skiing!
Reply
post #30 of 1165
4/11/07 at 3:51pm
bob, i won't be able to do that for a few days, i cant view it from my location.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching

Gear mentioned in this thread:

EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Bullet Proof Short Turns - PMTS - Video