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MA request: SL

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
Not much filming this year but here is a small capture made by my 9y old kid of me on a very easy groomer. Conditions were pritty good and there was good edge hold.

My intent was to try and stay low through the transitions and extend into the turn, let the leggs sway back and forth, while my upper body remained upright with horisontally leveled shoulders to form angulation between legs and upper body. And to keep mooving down the hill with an even flow. Any thaughts?

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=9AE65CA4

Sorry for squashed format.
post #2 of 42
Nice. So strong is your inside ski that you are almost skating these turns, or that's how it looks to me.

It relates interestingly to the conversation about 'A-framing' and I wonder whether your stated intent to stay low has meant that maybe for the forces generated you have actually had to use that inside ski for more direct support (A-frame) than you would need if had been going faster? Just a thought.
post #3 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daslider View Post
Nice. So strong is your inside ski that you are almost skating these turns, or that's how it looks to me.

It relates interestingly to the conversation about 'A-framing' and I wonder whether your stated intent to stay low has meant that maybe for the forces generated you have actually had to use that inside ski for more direct support (A-frame) than you would need if had been going faster? Just a thought.
Thanks for your thaughts daslider. You picked up on two of the issues that I have spotted myselfe from this and other videos: A-frame and scating.

In the good old days I used to have a-frame (not a crime back then) but I worked that away during the last two years. Now it seems to have come back. Im still pleased with the overall improvement in my skiing but somehow there has been so many issues that parallel shafts have been over looked. Gotto do something about that next year. I dont think it has anything to do with speed if look at the turn at the top where I incline quite a lot since speed is up.

The scating is seems to come from an effort to generate speed at the gates and to be more dynamic. Maybe its also an attemt to create higher edge angles.... Wonder if that is totally wrong?
post #4 of 42

comments from the peanut gallery.

I'm not qualified to improve your skiing, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

It looks to me on some of the turns, like the first one, that your outside edge isn't holding as well as you would like it to, and you are compensating by tipping it more and also being forced to use the inside ski more. That sets up the vicious circle. I think the root cause of your outside edge not holding is your stubborn resolution to keep your upper body still, too much of a good thing. Without that intent you would have a better loading of that outside.
post #5 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I'm not qualified to improve your skiing, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

It looks to me on some of the turns, like the first one, that your outside edge isn't holding as well as you would like it to, and you are compensating by tipping it more and also being forced to use the inside ski more. That sets up the vicious circle. I think the root cause of your outside edge not holding is your stubborn resolution to keep your upper body still, too much of a good thing. Without that intent you would have a better loading of that outside.
Do you mean the first left turn that is actually the second turn in the clip? IMO I was carving it cleanly but there is some snow spraying I admit. It was warming up and the snow was getting a bit soft in places. Are you suggesting I should bank?
post #6 of 42
That's some nice skiing!

I know you were trying to stay low, but even at that, you need to find a way to actively re-centre so that you can really engage those shovels at initiation. You can still stay low while coming forward. I would throw a pole plant in there, which would help. Coming forward will also help correct the asymmetry of your legs, noticed by other people. Instead of flopping over to the side when starting your turns, pressuring the tips will pull both legs right into the arc.
post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Do you mean the first left turn that is actually the second turn in the clip? IMO I was carving it cleanly but there is some snow spraying I admit. It was warming up and the snow was getting a bit soft in places. Are you suggesting I should bank?
No, don't bank. Maybe, I don't really know, a little more angulation at the beginning could help.

Yes, you did what you had to do to carve it cleanly.

As I'm not a ski instructor it's hard for me to explain, but I will try. It just looks to me that while you are keeping your upper body still and calm and your center is being forced to stay still, it is also going more straight down and less side to side (edit: reading the post above, maybe also less forward onto the tips too. I'm thinking getting power down to the front half of the outside edge). This puts it ever so slightly further away from the outside edge at times than the ideal. You gotta be there to put your power there; it's harder to do from a distance. If you were a fighter doing punches and kicks, I would say you were slightly reaching too far instead of moving into range with your body and then delivering the technique.

Again I'm no ski instructor. Me giving you hints brings to mind the expression "teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs", something she should know better than you (it's a very old expression, grandmothers don't suck eggs these days), but perhaps I can give you food for thought.
post #8 of 42
Nice angulation and cross under!


It looks like there is a bit of divergence in the skis because the tip of the outside ski is not engaging soon enough. I would not add a pole plant in those to turns, but as D(C) said, bit of early tip pressure is needed. I'd go play with stance and arm position a bit and try to figure out the best way to get that.
post #9 of 42
Thread Starter 
Ghost, your feedback is very much in order. Interesting to hear that your guys think that I should stay more forward as that is something I also have been trying to work on.

newfydog, thanks. The pole plant is sometning I have consiously left out of this kind of skiing since I try to minimize movements and focus on outside arm gate clearing. Diverging skis is a good observation but I managed to carve that first left turn cleanly so maybe its just little distortion and not a major flaw.

How do you guys suggest I pressure the tip more early in the turn?
post #10 of 42
To pressure the tips, see what a pole plant does. As you go in for your plant, bring everything forward. When you get into a course, you'll see that your timing and line on pitches will be much easier to keep. I don't really see a reason to leave it out. If you're working on outside arm gate clearing, after you crossblock, the pole plant will help pull your body down the hill and into the new turn.

Also, maybe you're focussing too much on getting quickly onto the new edge. Give yourself the time to really feel the fronts of your boots before thinking about bringing the skis around. You'll see that you can really deepen your line like that.
post #11 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Ghost, your feedback is very much in order. Interesting to hear that your guys think that I should stay more forward as that is something I also have been trying to work on.

newfydog, thanks. The pole plant is sometning I have consiously left out of this kind of skiing since I try to minimize movements and focus on outside arm gate clearing. Diverging skis is a good observation but I managed to carve that first left turn cleanly so maybe its just little distortion and not a major flaw.

How do you guys suggest I pressure the tip more early in the turn?
I would just allow my cm to move a little more. I would almost be willing to bet that when you are not deliberately making an effort to "extend into the turn, let the leggs sway back and forth, while my upper body remained upright with horisontally leveled shoulders to form angulation between legs and upper body. And to keep mooving down the hill with an even flow" that you let your self move more over the front of your outside ski.
post #12 of 42
Thread Starter 
Good feedback boyz. Here is a short clip from my skiing last year. Im on Head skis and they are not turning as well as the Blizzards Im on now but other than that its pritty much a perfect reference. Lets see if this will help us in our study. Oh yes, I upgraded my The Beast to Dobermans this year as well.

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=59A196E0
post #13 of 42
tdk6,

Great skiing, but like others, I do think you made too great an effort to keep you upper body from moving in the vertical direction. If you had more speed you could have generated more G-forces in the turns and use some rebound to get the ski back under you.

What I really like about you tdk6 is that you can obviously ski in any style you desire. That is the way it should be, especially for an instructor.
post #14 of 42
I just saw the second clip. Very nice tdk6, that looks less forced and therefore you look smooth. HH would probably tell you to pull the inside foot a little more under you, but that is nitpicking.
post #15 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
tdk6,

Great skiing, but like others, I do think you made too great an effort to keep you upper body from moving in the vertical direction. If you had more speed you could have generated more G-forces in the turns and use some rebound to get the ski back under you.

What I really like about you tdk6 is that you can obviously ski in any style you desire. That is the way it should be, especially for an instructor.
Thanks TomB you are too kind but right now I wish I could ski faster ! Im determined to become much better at gate skiing, this is my second season after a 25y brake and I allredy have been able to shake off some of that dust my limbs have been gathering after 15y of pro/semipro teaching.

My intent was to flex at transition, cross under and extend out to the sides with my leggs. Let me show you annother clip from last year where I use ski rebound to get myself up in the air. However, the intent with the initial clip was to absorb that rebound and try to make the transition as fluent as possible.

http://sports.topeverything.com/defa...tent&ID=63B6AA
post #16 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I just saw the second clip. Very nice tdk6, that looks less forced and therefore you look smooth. HH would probably tell you to pull the inside foot a little more under you, but that is nitpicking.
Ive read the new book by HH and saw the dvd and I think they are brilliant. That is something I have been trying to incorporate into my skiing this year, maybe it shows. Yeah, HH's nitpicking is somthing else... I taped myself doing a couple of his drills. One I posted alredy and got some constructive critisism .
post #17 of 42
Nice.........only thing that stands out to me is your pressure management could be refined. Too much inside ski pressure to early. Gas on that outside ski early and more as you progress into the turn go to the inside ski. Sweet tranny move.
post #18 of 42
Thread Starter 
Slider, thanx for your input. I used to ski with a lot of weight on my outside ski, we all did before didnt we, but during the last 10y the trend has been to put weight on the inside ski as well. I guess I need to start skiing on that outside ski more than I do now. There is a lot of diverging opinions on this issue among race coaches.
post #19 of 42
In the video with the jumps, you appear to be making a distinct change of Le Master's 'steering angle' in mid-air. If you then look at the more recent video your insde ski is very nearly equivalent to a 'step' in that it is again changing your steering angle. I just wonder whether either it can't make the radius, or you do not allow the outside ski the time it needs to make these turns without resorting to one of the above. Without actual gates, it is difficult to say, but I guess that if the inside ski can do it, so would the outside one given the chance. As others have said, its engagement is the issue maybe? Great turns nevertheless.
post #20 of 42
In both SL sequences the inside ski has tip lead and divirgence. Pulling the tip back and tucking the foot next to the other leg (with vertical separation as necessary) will get you more foreward and give more energy at the end of the turn.
post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Slider, thanx for your input. I used to ski with a lot of weight on my outside ski, we all did before didnt we, but during the last 10y the trend has been to put weight on the inside ski as well. I guess I need to start skiing on that outside ski more than I do now. There is a lot of diverging opinions on this issue among race coaches.

Interesting, I've gone through the same sequence. In watching World Cup tapes, there seems to be no consensus at any level of skiing.
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Interesting, I've gone through the same sequence. In watching World Cup tapes, there seems to be no consensus at any level of skiing.
In order to be able to weight the inside ski to give a powerful end of the turn, you need to start by weighting the outside ski at initiation (note: WEIGHTING but not PUSHING OFF OF).
post #23 of 42
Yeah, it seems evey tape I look at shows strong outside dominance at the initiation. It is the inside shift towards the end that varies. TDK, next time you ski see if you are hanging to the inside ski a bit at the start of the turn. I know I do that when I let my angulation get ahead of the pressure.
post #24 of 42
It seems that it is a progressive movement from the outside ski to the inside ski. So that when you have reached the apex of the turn an equal pressure is being applied to both skis. There by a 50/50 pressure is created for your tranny. IMHO. However, this is not always the case in certain situtations.
post #25 of 42
tdk6:

Good edging skills. Smooth skiing. Nice.

I think in your attempt to keep the upper body quiet you have forgotten about bringing the CM forward as you are releasing your edges. "Moving with your equipment"; "re-centering"; "Blending forward movement with lateral movements"; "going there"; " moving into the new turn"---whatever words one uses to describe it!

I'm wondering why you aren't swinging your poles. I have been taught (and I teach) that it is a wonderful way to facilitate good rhythm and blended movements. Perhaps you are deliberately not doing this as part of your effort to keep a quiet body. While you do not need an aggressive pole "plant" with these turns, (a pole "touch" would do nicely) a pole "swing" would help loosen up the upper body a bit and facilitate re-centering.

What do you think of this suggestion? I'm interested in your feedback. I view my MA's of high end skiers in this forum as a learning opportunity for me as much as being useful advice to the skier. Perhaps more!

regards,
cdnguy
post #26 of 42
I think Cdnguy has the right idea, tdk6. Even if you don't make much of a pole touch, it's important to continue involving the pole and preparing for a touch to aid in bringing your CM forward.

Regarding your skating and lack of tip pressure, try doing some skating up a gradual slope and pay attention to where your hips go in relation to the foot you're pushing off with. Notice that your hips go more forward. I think in the turns you showed in the first video, your skating movement was more toward inside the turn than diagonally. Then turn around and skate down that slope a bit with the same focus. Finally, search for a similar sensation while making turns on gradually steeper terrain. And then develop a feel for sensing the engagement of the outside edge of the inside ski at the same time.
post #27 of 42
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all your input. I did not have that much speed and the grip was good so I was well inside my comfort zone. I was not pushed to give even close to 100% in any of those turns except that tight left turn on the top. Since my intent was to keep my upper body facing down in the fall line and to cross under with my leggs my skiing became more two footed than optimal but on the other hand still sufficient for that kind of skiing right there. The pole plant is also missing since when we ski gates set in a line we only let our skis zick-zack underneth us and we block with one arm in front. I realize now that a poleplant may be useful but after starting to ski SL tracks two years ago I had to strip down all my moves to the absolute essentials. Adding useful moves will be my next project.

What I have been working on this last seaon and what Im trying to demo in my video is to be able to edge my skis sufficiently. This means rounder turns and more angulation. I need to let my skis run out from underneath me to the side while my upper body strives to go down in the fall line and forwards. One major difference in skiing on a racing track or just ripping it up on the gromer is that on a racing track you cannot just tip your skis on an edge and let them carve. You need to constantly change turn radius and find some way to brush off some speed and to put the pedal to the metal in all the right places.

Kneale Brownson - funny that you should mention scating up the hill.... here is a clip from between the demo runs that same day. Can you make anything useful comment of it for this particular discussion:

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=E13E3546
post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Kneale Brownson - funny that you should mention scating up the hill.... here is a clip from between the demo runs that same day. Can you make anything useful comment of it for this particular discussion:

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=E13E3546
Watch how your hips move diagonally forward and laterally away from the pushing foot. You want similar movement when transitioning onto new edges, but with less of a push.
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Thanks for all your input. I did not have that much speed and the grip was good so I was well inside my comfort zone. I was not pushed to give even close to 100% in any of those turns except that tight left turn on the top. Since my intent was to keep my upper body facing down in the fall line and to cross under with my leggs my skiing became more two footed than optimal but on the other hand still sufficient for that kind of skiing right there. The pole plant is also missing since when we ski gates set in a line we only let our skis zick-zack underneth us and we block with one arm in front. I realize now that a poleplant may be useful but after starting to ski SL tracks two years ago I had to strip down all my moves to the absolute essentials. Adding useful moves will be my next project.

What I have been working on this last seaon and what Im trying to demo in my video is to be able to edge my skis sufficiently. This means rounder turns and more angulation. I need to let my skis run out from underneath me to the side while my upper body strives to go down in the fall line and forwards. One major difference in skiing on a racing track or just ripping it up on the gromer is that on a racing track you cannot just tip your skis on an edge and let them carve. You need to constantly change turn radius and find some way to brush off some speed and to put the pedal to the metal in all the right places.

Kneale Brownson - funny that you should mention scating up the hill.... here is a clip from between the demo runs that same day. Can you make anything useful comment of it for this particular discussion:

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=E13E3546
Another thing about a race track is that the forward balance needed to get the tips working on the polished ice can lead to unpleasantness when you hit some crap.

I think it's a case of a little too much cure. Like a motorcycle rider who is trying to lean his bike over to touch his pegs down instead of just trying to turn and taking the lean that comes with it.

You succeeded too well; you let your skis go out from under you to the side while your body went straight down the fall line, and the tips got too far from your body because that is what you were trying to do! With the tips too far from your weight you sensed the lack of grip, tipped them more and used the inside ski to help out. It all started with a deliberate attempt to get your skis to go out without your cm, too good a cross-under with not enough weight near the tips for good initiation of the next turn.

Edit: I don't mean to sound harsh; I'm just trying to be exact (I'm an engineer). I think it's pretty good skiing.
post #30 of 42

Contrary to what everybody else said...

...I think what you're doing is just fine. Now put your turns to the acid test, because this is all just style points, which what the feedback you're hearing consists of. Go run some gates and see how it all works...
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