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What's wrong with some Tip Lead? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Just out skiing and noticed some tip lead, I checked my hips and everything seemed square! So I did a rerun and then there was tip lead on the other leg, most bizarre!!

Sean:
Uh oh, better just turn one direction from now on and you'll get that down to the same leg
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Just out skiing and noticed some tip lead, I checked my hips and everything seemed square! So I did a rerun and then there was tip lead on the other leg, most bizarre!!
When the outside hip/leg leads the turn, it's called rotation. An extreme example is throwing the shoulder. No rotation into the turn is the usual target.
post #33 of 52
Tip lead can be effected by flexing the knee of the inside leg.
Remember, the lines drawn through the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders should all be parallel with the slope. It's called "a strong inside half".
post #34 of 52
I did sort it, just adjusted my position on the button lift
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
When the outside hip/leg leads the turn, it's called rotation. An extreme example is throwing the shoulder. No rotation into the turn is the usual target.
Good point.

But I've been wondering is there need to avoid all rotation? I mean, I understand your point if your goal is to make perfect railroad tracks on groomers.

But how about some crud, powder, trees, moguls, crappy "rotten" snow etc.?

I guess if you ski moguls (zipper-line) you need some rotation / leg steering. Same about the deep powder, steep breakable crud etc.

Any pointers here? This thread is very informative BTW. I've skied this winter almost 100% park (15 days) & powder (7 days) and then only in the late spring 3 days exclusively on great soft groomers...and did noticed some problems with inside tip lead and not using inside leg most efficiently; too narrow stance and not keeping the inside leg under the hip. I noticed that I've got tons of hip angulation but because of the narrow stance I couldn't get the inside leg/knee angulated enough (to get even angles on both skis), resulting some A-framing and almost 100% outer foot dominated turns.

It was really eye opening to test some short carvers and try to really get the 2-foot technique dialled. The role of the inside leg got much clearer to me (and yes I got some pointers from ski-teacher - after around 10 years of skiing quite alot of pow/big mountain and some park, I'll think I take some more lessons in the next season! Really good and humbling to get into the basics again once in a while)

My guess is that if you mostly (free)ski on some 190 straight and wide sticks, you get used to some pretty old school techniques. It almost feel like the 165 Sl ski groomer skiing is a totally different sport!
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiehkevarri View Post
Good point.

But I've been wondering is there need to avoid all rotation? I mean, I understand your point if your goal is to make perfect railroad tracks on groomers.

But how about some crud, powder, trees, moguls, crappy "rotten" snow etc.?

I guess if you ski moguls (zipper-line) you need some rotation / leg steering. Same about the deep powder, steep breakable crud etc.
Yes, but do you ever need "reverse tip lead"? No, you don't. The blocking pole plant is all the evidence that you need that upper body rotation is to be avoided in moguls, trees, etc It does not help you to rotate, it stops it. That is it's whole purpose - to stop upper body rotation.

Regarding moguls, the standard instruction to press your tips down into the trough shows that you really want the snow to assist in turning your skis - even in moguls!
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Yes, but do you ever need "reverse tip lead"? No, you don't.
I've certainly never heard of anyone using reverse tip lead

Quote:
The blocking pole plant is all the evidence that you need that upper body rotation is to be avoided in moguls, trees, etc It does not help you to rotate, it stops it. That is it's whole purpose - to stop upper body rotation.
One additional note, the blocking pole plant provides an "anchor" against which the lower body can rotate/pivot.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I've certainly never heard of anyone using reverse tip lead.
Not on purpose, anyway. But it happens.
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLATZ View Post
Tip lead can be effected by flexing the knee of the inside leg.
Remember, the lines drawn through the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders should all be parallel with the slope. It's called "a strong inside half".
I dont quite understand this statement........line drawn through the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders should all be parallel with the slope??? Can anyone brake it down a little.
post #40 of 52
No tip lead is as much rubbish as the claim that you need to be in the back seat to ski powder....
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No tip lead is as much rubbish as the claim that you need to be in the back seat to ski powder....
Agreed. "Tip Lead" is generally meant to be discussed as not excessive, not "NO" tip lead. This has been pointed out before.

If you've got any sort of edge angles going and a slope, tip lead is going to happen. Unless you completely contort your body in odd ways, the inside femur will flex at the hip when you incline/angulate. That will put the inside knee in front of the outside. THe only way to bring the the feet back into the same plane is to flex the knee. To keep the ski flat on the snow, the ankle then has to flex. Flex is limited by the boot and by the amount of dorsilflexion (or range of motion) a person has.

Try it on dry land. Stand close to a wall with feet hip/shoulder width apart. Then tip over and touch a shoulder to the wall. Incline or angualte - either way, if you don't flex the inside leg, the outside heel will not touch the ground. Try the same thing in ski boots and depending on the stiffness of the boot, you'll see the effects of restricted range fairly quickly.

Restricting tip lead isn't a "look pretty thing". If you want the inside ski to be pulling through the turn with the most force possible, it has to be hooked up and on edge. If it's hooked up early, you'll be on the front of the ski, which will cause resistance and hold the ski back with less tip lead than if you're casual about inside ski engagement.

Tightening up arcs with a very active inside ski isn't always need, but it is a nice tool to have. Efforts to pull the foot backand engage the inside tip after transition work to some degree to add the inside ski back into the equation, but not like one that is engaged from turn initiation.

Don't worry about the look. Do you need less tip lead for the turn you want to make? If so, engage early.
post #42 of 52
It also depends on the slope. I can "pull my foot back" to make zero tip lead on gentler terrain. Why should I do this?
post #43 of 52
tdk6
When you look at the skier from the front and draw lines through the ankles, knees, hips and shoulders they should all be about parallel with the slope. You'll find this in some of the USSCA materials as well as some instruction books.
Tele skiers have negative tip lead and they're not rotated into the hill with their hips and shoulders. That's the extreme of what I'm talking about.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Agreed. "Tip Lead" is generally meant to be discussed as not excessive, not "NO" tip lead. This has been pointed out before.

If you've got any sort of edge angles going and a slope, tip lead is going to happen. Unless you completely contort your body in odd ways, the inside femur will flex at the hip when you incline/angulate. That will put the inside knee in front of the outside. THe only way to bring the the feet back into the same plane is to flex the knee. To keep the ski flat on the snow, the ankle then has to flex. Flex is limited by the boot and by the amount of dorsilflexion (or range of motion) a person has.

Try it on dry land. Stand close to a wall with feet hip/shoulder width apart. Then tip over and touch a shoulder to the wall. Incline or angualte - either way, if you don't flex the inside leg, the outside heel will not touch the ground. Try the same thing in ski boots and depending on the stiffness of the boot, you'll see the effects of restricted range fairly quickly.

Restricting tip lead isn't a "look pretty thing". If you want the inside ski to be pulling through the turn with the most force possible, it has to be hooked up and on edge. If it's hooked up early, you'll be on the front of the ski, which will cause resistance and hold the ski back with less tip lead than if you're casual about inside ski engagement.

Tightening up arcs with a very active inside ski isn't always need, but it is a nice tool to have. Efforts to pull the foot backand engage the inside tip after transition work to some degree to add the inside ski back into the equation, but not like one that is engaged from turn initiation.

Don't worry about the look. Do you need less tip lead for the turn you want to make? If so, engage early.
Exactomundo .

I read a book last year that was written by a veteran swedish WC alpine coach and there was not one word mentioned about tip lead. But its incredible how much BS is passed arround on this topic even on high coaching and instructor level. We had an instructor assosiation rep come and drill us for a day a few years back. The only thing he talked about was getting rid of tip lead. What a waste of time and money not to mention how destructive stuff like that can be and most positively is.

One very negative aspect of trying to pull that inside ski back is that you start to look like a mono-ski skier and you need to both bank and rotate your hips towards the outside in order to make it happen. Go buy a monoski if you want no tip lead.
post #45 of 52
I'm glad this thread has taken this topic from being "no tip lead" to one of reasonable acceptance that some tip lead is both advantageous and inherent in good skiing.

But many things will impact the amount in each skier- body type, equipment, speed and turn radius. Each of these factors changes the amount of tip lead which might exist beneficially for that skier.

While teaching, the only time I really dwell on tip lead is when I have a student who is forcing some sort of non-functional amount of lead (either too little or too much). Otherwise, I let each student develop their own degree.
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
But its incredible how much BS is passed arround on this topic even on high coaching and instructor level. We had an instructor assosiation rep come and drill us for a day a few years back. The only thing he talked about was getting rid of tip lead. What a waste of time and money not to mention how destructive stuff like that can be and most positively is.
I usually get "ding'ed" by examiners. Skis and boots are stiff, so on gentle terrain and slower speeds it's just a PIA to always load everything up. As we progress to different terrain, the excessive lead usually disappears.

If we're specifically working on inside ski/two footed skills, however, I back off on cuff buckles and play along.
post #47 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It also depends on the slope. I can "pull my foot back" to make zero tip lead on gentler terrain. Why should I do this?
Does usually help to move a "back seater" forward.
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Does usually help to move a "back seater" forward.
OK. I'm not in the back seat, yet still getting told to pull the inside foot back. Why?
post #49 of 52
Big E-
Who is giving you that direction? And have you asked the reasoning behind that direction?

If it is someone you respect (obviously) then they should be able to reinforce their direction very clearly to you. If they can't, well, it's time to reevaluate the quality of what you are being told.

You probably have, but check out my post above....
post #50 of 52
VSP - the direction comes from PMTS.

It's part of each and every turn -- lift, tip, and pull it back.

IMO, there's more to it than merely fore and aft. Muscular tensions, etc.... But, I've not read nor heard about the gory details - even the material does not make it explicit - except that it's part of the recipe. One target is to reduce tip lead.

I was hoping to hear about the technical underpinnings of this "pull back" move.
post #51 of 52
I believe its supposed to be more of a "hold-it-back", but its not taught that way. One dilemma I have over this concept is that if you pull the inside foot back in the early part of the turn, this can easily work against counter-action movements if not careful. I personally don't think the free foot pullback should be thought about in the early high-C.

Once you are at or near the apex, your outside leg is extended, hopefully your hip inside, decent edge angle, inside leg flexed aggressively for vertical separation. In this part of the turn it could be very easy for the inside foot to get ahead of you if you don't pro-actively keep pulling on it so it stays back as far under the hips as possible. From that point until the end of the turn, keeping your inside foot under your hips by continuing to pullback will help to maintain good fore-aft as you go into transition.
post #52 of 52
BigE,

Pulling the inside ski back is not really a technique, but a verbal cue for skiers that are very outside ski oriented. The inside ski moves a little ahead of it's allignment under the hip, espicially on steeper terrain, and from there can't be used as effectivally. For some skiers, it is a matter of a centimeter difference, for others it is much more. Borntoski683 has the right idea with "hold'-it-back", or keep it where it is being used effectivally. It takes skill and finesse to softly flex the inside ankle and boot cuff to the outside of the tongue of the boot espicially while the weight on the "free foot" is being softened after transition. This is the point of the turn where it naturally tends to move ahead espicially as we ski into a countered position.

Stem stepps or the white pass turn are a very good drill for keeping the inside foot where it needs to be during that phase of the turn. After passing the fall line, the inside foot will move slightly ahead of the outside foot, but the amount it moves is determined by how it is used in the earlier phase of the turn (plus other factors such as pitch of the hill, boot cuff angle, ect).
Hope this makes sence to you and others that have had questions about this.

RW
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