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Shortish turns - yada, yada - CSIA style

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
Having seen nolo's short turns post and all the comments, I wanted to make a comparison with the following video, which I thought shows a bit of CSIA style turns. So how does this compare: CSIA Short Turns?
post #2 of 18
Thread Starter 
Sorry, the first video did not seem to work so I uploaded it again. You can see it here but please note that it is large and takes a while to download. You have to be patient for a minute or so.
post #3 of 18
Looks like fun turns, Tom. I'd like them better if you kept hands and shoulders a bit more level (a more upright torso). If you kept your hands in a relatively similar position to your torso and dragged both baskets on the snow instead of just the inside one, you'd accomplish that.

Because of the shadows, I can't tell for certain, but it appears you pick up your new inside ski, especially in entries to turns to the right. Is that accurate, or do the pictures play tricks on me? If you do tend to raise that ski, I'd suggest thinking about making your extensions while feeling the bottoms of both feet pressing onto the snow.
post #4 of 18
Very nice skiing Tom. Its is a bit steep at the top which doesent really show that well in the video but you stay in controll. I too see the inside ski lift so its not the shadows playing tricks on us.

What strikes me is that your skiing is based on the prominent CSIA up-unweighting move at transition and flexing through out the whole turn. This results in lack of pressure on skis earlier in the turn. Snow is spraying from skis only after passing through the fall line (not only in the steep part). Also note how your outside ski sometimes drifts away from underneath you during that part of the turn. Its a result of banking and not keeping your hips firmly inside the turn.

At the end of the run your turns look much better but there its also much more flat. If you want me to compare you to nolos skiing I would say that its not really possible since nolo is carving and you are skidding. Your terrain is steep while nolos terrain is easy. A fair comparisson can only be made on the exact same run on that exact same day with the exact same intent. Sorry... Im sure others will give you better input.

BTW, epic home video experts, take note... this is how you should film skiing. Some of the best camera work here on epic sofar.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Very nice skiing Tom. Its is a bit steep at the top which doesent really show that well in the video but you stay in controll. I too see the inside ski lift so its not the shadows playing tricks on us.

What strikes me is that your skiing is based on the prominent CSIA up-unweighting move at transition and flexing through out the whole turn. This results in lack of pressure on skis earlier in the turn. Snow is spraying from skis only after passing through the fall line (not only in the steep part). Also note how your outside ski sometimes drifts away from underneath you during that part of the turn. Its a result of banking and not keeping your hips firmly inside the turn.

At the end of the run your turns look much better but there its also much more flat. If you want me to compare you to nolos skiing I would say that its not really possible since nolo is carving and you are skidding. Your terrain is steep while nolos terrain is easy. A fair comparisson can only be made on the exact same run on that exact same day with the exact same intent. Sorry... Im sure others will give you better input.

BTW, epic home video experts, take note... this is how you should film skiing. Some of the best camera work here on epic sofar.
Hey, nice turns Tom. And I agree with the constructive remarks about how you could strengthen those turns.

Just to clarify the CSIA "up" move that tdk6 refers to. There is no CSIA up move. We get hammered just as much as all of you folks for making this move. Nor are we taught to flex all through the turn.

cdnguy
post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for the comments. I did notice that inside ski lift, especially on right turns. I tend to do that when the turns are tight and more energetic, so I need to work on killing that move. And that bit of banking has to go. It is killing me and I hate it when I see it on video.

I do agree that in this video there is plenty of up-move and pivot entry into my turns. I had no intention to carve the turns. Frankly I wanted to emulate the short turns that Cannonball made in his video. STOP LAUGHING!

Speaking of the up-move, I don't see how one can avoid it when absorbing the turn. You are basically crouched at the transition and unless you go really fast and can extend into the next turn, the only place to go is up.

Of course, that is why we have PMTS style turns to play with. Unfortunately I don't have any video of me doing PMTS style turns, although I do them a lot and have been paracticing them too. Maybe next year I shall get video of such turns.

I do have a video of longer turns and will eventually upload that for a few comments.
post #7 of 18
[quote=TomB;689870]Speaking of the up-move, I don't see how one can avoid it when absorbing the turn. You are basically crouched at the transition and unless you go really fast and can extend into the next turn, the only place to go is up. /QUOTE]

There is a certain amount of "up" that happens as your skiis come underneath you at the end of a turn and you lose inclination. That's OK. But it's important to release the skis and start the new turn in the flexed position in which you have finished the old turn. When the skis are released your CM is free to move across your feet. This is called toppling. As this starts to happen, you extend the legs, but this extension will be more lateral than up. This release and lateral extension is one of the marks of good skiers. You do not have to go "up".

regards'

cdnguy
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks cdnguy that makes perfect sense. Staying flexed through the transition and extending slowly should result in better early pressure and avoid the dreaded pivot entry too.

Man, everytime you think your skiing has reached a new level, you realize there are another 20 levels above you.
post #9 of 18
I have described this as the inside leg collapsing. If the new inside leg collapses as the new outside leg extends, then the hips can stay at the same height above the snow as they move across the skis. A common short version of this is "long leg, short leg".
post #10 of 18
Something to ponder ... cdnguy is indeed steering you in the right direction. Continuing your flexing movements of the outside ankle combined with subtle extension of the new outside knee, will allow the CM to begin to move across your skis, facilitating edge change. Directional movements of the CM and edge release work together.

If the CM moves in the intended direction of travel you will also eliminate any stepping, or sequential edge change movements, and that very slight break/pause in your fluidity thru the edge change phase.

Try to blend these movements into lower level skiing like wedge christies and open parallel turns. Play with how flexing the outside ankle combined with extension of the new outside knee, facilitates edge release without abrupt all-at-once, all-extension movements.

Then add these movements to your dynamic turns ... and give a report back if you have the chance to try this.
post #11 of 18

Skis not carving early in the turns...

Quote:
This results in lack of pressure on skis earlier in the turn. Snow is spraying from skis only after passing through the fall line (not only in the steep part). Also note how your outside ski sometimes drifts away from underneath you during that part of the turn. Its a result of banking and not keeping your hips firmly inside the turn.
I noticed this immediatly. It's almost like your falling into the turn. It does look like you have a lot of vertical movement. This releases the pressure on the ski and doesn't give you good enough edge contact at the beginning of the turn. Only when your skis are in the fall line do they really grab. The end of your turns are magnificent.

A small suggestion. Try these same turns without hunching over. See if you can get the pressure from a more relaxed stance.

All in all, very nice skiing.

Bob
post #12 of 18

Seven-UP

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Thanks everyone for the comments. I did notice that inside ski lift, especially on right turns. I tend to do that when the turns are tight and more energetic, so I need to work on killing that move. And that bit of banking has to go. It is killing me and I hate it when I see it on video.
Lifting the inside ski is not such a big crime. Look at Larsson, won a couple of WC SL races this season and belongs in the top 10 guys in the world at the moment. He is lifting his inside ski every turn:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=7189FF19

BTW, that video has over 1500 views....

Banking has to go but that is not really that important eather. At your level, expert level, you can bank sometimes if you want, I know I do. Nobody can be expected to ski perfectly all the time and as long as you dont base your turning on banking or have it creap into your turning every other turn you should be ok. You need to focus on other stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
I do agree that in this video there is plenty of up-move and pivot entry into my turns. I had no intention to carve the turns. Frankly I wanted to emulate the short turns that Cannonball made in his video. STOP LAUGHING!
cdnguy, sorry for my previous statement its just that it has become a standard phrase here at epic to call it "the prominent Canadian up-move". I know the up-movement is common in PSIA as well and in probably every ski-school assosiation in the world, including us here as well.

Fact is that most of us have been thaught to turn by up-unweighting. And if you happen to be an ski instructor you have been drilled to be able to make it even more apparent so that the students can spot it easily from your skiing and your demos. I have had a hard time mastering it myselfe since I was thaught in the 70-80s not to do it by some outlaw coaches working with Austrian WC skiers. At my exam I was heavily critisized for lacking the up move but passed due to teaching skills.

I dont know if this is the right place to post this retro video clip of me doing short turns on pencil skis. Intent was to loosen up our knees, keep our body facing down the hill and not to move our hips. In contrast to Cannonballs video there is no up-move.
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=1169DF3F

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Speaking of the up-move, I don't see how one can avoid it when absorbing the turn. You are basically crouched at the transition and unless you go really fast and can extend into the next turn, the only place to go is up.
This is your problem as I see it: "I don't see how one can avoid it when absorbing the turn"...... Why do you need to absorb the turn? As you come through the fall line and gravity starts to pull in the same direction as the cenrifugal force pressure on skis increase. Why should you absorb in this moment? What you should do is stay extended. Here we come to the principal difference in up-unweighting and down-unweighting technique.

The following theory is my own so dont consider it the universal truth. Lets first look at how we unweight by up-unweighting (UUW) and down-unweighting (DUW). If we stand flat on the ground in a flexed position and quickly extend ourselves to the point where our legs are fully extended and our up-motion stops and we feel our legs get unweighted in this very moment we call it UUW. If we stand in an extended position or slightly flexed and quickly flex our leggs, in the very instant we start our flexing we momentarily unweight our leggs, that is DUW (theoretically). What is interesting to realize here, try it right where you are right now, is that the DUW move needs to bee quick as a lightning in order to give us any sort of unweighting sensation. As a matter of fact we need to beat gravity to get totally unweighted. In UUW we have a lot more time since we are moving against gravity insted of with it. It doesent even take much effort to jump up in the air a bit. This kind of thinking made me realize that you cannot unweight your skis efficiently by DUW. What you need is to have a force lifting you up that you can unweight by retracting your leggs. That would be the right way DUW. DUW involves dynamic skiing and the use of ski rebound from eather a bump, powder or previous turn. DUW is something you do from your waist down and something that needs to stay down there. Keep your upper body in one place vertically and work with your leggs.

So, how does this relate to TomB's (Im TomK BTW) skiing? Simple, insted of flexing all the way through the turn and having to extend in order to "go somewhere" and to be able to ease the pressure off your skis so that you can pivot them into a skidd your outside leg should stay extended untill you move into the transition when you should start to flex it in order to move through the transition without lifing your body up into the air. Use the rebound from previous turn to give you some lift but time your turns so that you start to flex your outside leg just before you start to move up with your whole body. Note that you are comming away from an inclined stance so that that adds up to a lot of up movement you need to flex through. Maybe some of this might be PMTS technique as well but it isnt. Its just plain modern short turn technique used all over the world every day. Best insturction material I ever read on this issue happens to be HH new book so get it asap if you have any desire to become a better skier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Of course, that is why we have PMTS style turns to play with. Unfortunately I don't have any video of me doing PMTS style turns, although I do them a lot and have been paracticing them too. Maybe next year I shall get video of such turns.

I do have a video of longer turns and will eventually upload that for a few comments.
Dont wright it off as simply PMTS style turns! Also dont play with it! Take it seriously!!! Sorry for the long post.
post #13 of 18
If you want to emulate cannonballs's turns, you need much higher edge angles at the end of the turn. But you don't need to abandon PMTS techniques to make those turns. Specifically, you are getting on the big toe edge of the new stance ski before tipping the new free ski, I suspect this comes from actively steering the skis (that doesn't HAVE to be the result, but it seems common). But PMTS fundamentals like stance ski balance, free ski tipping and pulling back on the free ski will make those turns really rip. Just slightly delay engaging the new stance ski at the top of the turn while strongly tipping the free ski. And it should take care of the banking you are complaining about.

But you know all that, right
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
If you want to emulate cannonballs's turns, you need much higher edge angles at the end of the turn.
????? : ?????
One might argue that the skis should be flat at the end of a turn.
post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks again everyone for all the great advice. Unfortunately it has to be stored away for next year, as my season is finished.

And I definitely am taking PMTS seriously. I would consider myself incomplete unless I could make decent PMTS (race) style turns. So next year I will make sure to take some video of me attempting PMTS turns and let everyone here and at realskiers see and comment.
post #16 of 18
TomB, my suggestion for an improvement to those turns is to develop a what I call a "strong neutral".

That is between turns, lets call "neutral" the moment when the skis are flat, and the body is directly above the skis. At this point, lets also demand that your lower leg will be "boot neutral" or "cuff neutral" ie. there is no pressure on the front/back or side of the boot on your leg.

The first intent of the strong neutral is to ensure that you remain connected with the snow at the top of the turn, something that both PMTS and many posters here advocate. The benefits to doing this, is you'll be in a better position in which you can choose the type of turn you are going to make.

Want to steer? Go ahead, you're ready to pivot and extend.

Want to arc the turn? Tip the feet, and pull the CM forwards into the turn to remain centred. You'll have early edge engagement or "Hi-C".

Want to carve a SR turn? Pull the feet back as you tip or otherwise get the pressure and balance moving towards the shovels of the ski. The drill for this is to lift the tails of the skis clear from the snow as you start the upper half of the turn. The radius tightens with the same mechanism as a "falling leaf" exercise.

The beginnings of your intent should be realized by preparations made in the previous turn. By that I mean how far, fast and in which direction your CM will be moving across the skis etc. So in reality, the commitment to the turn type is made prior to reaching this point, however, it does provide a simple an common thread to connect all the turn types.

A good drill to acheive the strong neutral is to ski into neutral and stay there, allowing the skis to slide a bit before initiating the new turn. Then, try to initiate each different turn type. It's very instructive.

Progressions that focus on the body postion in the "strong neutral" can be developed, even when rebound energy or a bump has taken the skier off the snow. The key element being that the body alignment over the skis remains the same.

For the turns you've made, the strong neutral would enable you to create earlier edge engagement with tighter turns.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents. Hope it helps!

Cheers.
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks BigE, I do appreciate the feedback and I do agree with the neutral. In the video I used lots of rebound and up-move, so my my neutral is basically non-existant. I will add this to the "things to pay attention to next season".
post #18 of 18
BigE
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