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Alternatives to sole grinding on plug boots. - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Andrew,

Changing the angle of the boot board (Zeppa) and sole canting accomplish two different things. Changing the boot board changes varus and valgus of the foot and changing the boot sole angle changes where the edges engage in relation to knee position over the ski. These are two different areas and I believe the former affects balance and the latter affects edge engagement.

Your boots are TOOLS NOT JEWELS! Why be afraid to plane them? Why be afraid to cut up your liner, or grind the shell? What is the down side of having a tool that works for YOU. If you are worried about resale value of your prized boot......get over that right now!

b
Bud, I think what he was saying is that angling the boot board and changing the cuff angle together would have the same overall effect as canting at the bootsole.....which does make sense.
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
Bud, I think what he was saying is that angling the boot board and changing the cuff angle together would have the same overall effect as canting at the bootsole.....which does make sense.
Doesn't float for me...sorry.

There is no substitute for canting the boot sole or the binding. I do not understand why so many are always looking for an alternative. Canting the boot sole is not that big of a deal and does not shorten the life of the boot. Finding an experienced person to do the work is getting a bit easier all the time but is still not as easy as walking in the local ski shop. Be wary of boot fitters who do not have the skills or the tools to do the job because these generally are the ones who will tell you there is an alternative or that it is over rated or unneccesary. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!....

bud
post #33 of 51
Not to argue it any more, but the shop I was at had the proper tools necessary to grind boot soles and got a pretty good chunk of change for the service, yet we pretty much all had the same ideas on the matter. If you are going to go through the trouble of doing it though, you might as well do it right and do the boot sole grind- the only other ways of doing it properly that I know of is the binding shim, which nowadays either isn't possible with systems or isn't feasible for those with quivers or who demo skis regularly, or footbeds for those with very, very minor alignment issues of less than a degree either way.
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantman View Post
I'm not going to argue here, but I totally side with Bud. In a nutshell...
nothing will benefit you more than a properly fit boot that has been balanced for your individual biomechanics. It involves a properly posted footbed or orthotic, upper cuff alignment, knee alignment, fore/aft alignment, and abduction control.
cantman,

Could you please explain what you mean by abduction control.
post #35 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Doesn't float for me...sorry.

There is no substitute for canting the boot sole or the binding. I do not understand why so many are always looking for an alternative. Canting the boot sole is not that big of a deal and does not shorten the life of the boot. Finding an experienced person to do the work is getting a bit easier all the time but is still not as easy as walking in the local ski shop. Be wary of boot fitters who do not have the skills or the tools to do the job because these generally are the ones who will tell you there is an alternative or that it is over rated or unneccesary. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!....

bud
Thanks Bud ,

That's exactly what I thought, there is no alternative to sole grinding. The black art just became a little easier to understand. It is also a highly evolved skill, mastered by the very few : .

Best regards,

Michael
post #36 of 51
for those of us without perfect bio-mechanics, boot canting is fabulous. Can I get down the mountain happily w/o canted boots-- sure. But not as happily.

When I stand flat on my skis, they run flat on the snow. w/o the boot planing, I am on edge unless I compensate. enuf said-

as to the how of canting, the technique I like is slightly more expensive but I think offers the best results.

1) plane the boot with the cant

2) install a flat sole plate

3) then do the router thing fore and aft to get the boot back to DIN Specs

-- By putting on the sole plate you protect the planed surface of the boot. Thus if you have wear and tear on your boots from lots of walking around it is a simple matter to replace the sole plate- you didn't damage the planed surface.

to repeat another comment, who cares if you permanently alter the boots? They are yours and since thye are plug boot they will have a resale value of about $1.00. Cut, punch, rip em- do whatever you have to do to make them work for you-
post #37 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer View Post
the technique I like is slightly more expensive but I think offers the best results.

1) plane the boot with the cant

2) install a flat sole plate

3) then do the router thing fore and aft to get the boot back to DIN Specs

-- By putting on the sole plate you protect the planed surface of the boot. Thus if you have wear and tear on your boots from lots of walking around it is a simple matter to replace the sole plate- you didn't damage the planed surface.
Hi O.T.,

Yes. The plate on the sole, along with machining the lugs to meet DIN is the way to go. I will have the work done at Northern Ski Works in Killington this weekend, I checked to confirm that they follow this proceedure.

Michael
post #38 of 51
Hi Bud!

I was hoping that you were going to chime in on this one!

I'm with you!!!!

~Snowmiser~
post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Doesn't float for me...sorry.

There is no substitute for canting the boot sole or the binding. I do not understand why so many are always looking for an alternative. Canting the boot sole is not that big of a deal and does not shorten the life of the boot. Finding an experienced person to do the work is getting a bit easier all the time but is still not as easy as walking in the local ski shop. Be wary of boot fitters who do not have the skills or the tools to do the job because these generally are the ones who will tell you there is an alternative or that it is over rated or unneccesary. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail!....

bud
Bud, it's obviously not the exact same thing.....however, some of us have boots that you can't effectively put sole shims on, and grind (raichle flexons). I have to use cuff alignment, combined with tweaks to the bootboard and orthodic, to get me dialed in. It's not as great as modifing the the boot sole, but it is certainly good enough for me, and most people.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougH View Post
cantman,

Could you please explain what you mean by abduction control.

DougH...Glad you asked!

Abduction/adduction control means measuring for excess abduction/adduction and correcting it as much as possible without altering the alignment of other planes of motion. I find when controlling excess abduction/adduction, skis will feel more symmetrical. This symmetry gives the skier more control, better efficiency, and consistancy. In this age of shaped skis with a "two-footed" stance, I feel that the skis should turn at the same rate and unwanted transverse rotation can be minimized.
post #41 of 51
Thread Starter 
post #42 of 51
FWIW, I had mine done by Greg Hoffman of GMOL, and I have noticed a substantial difference. I don't know why you would use any other canting method. The only downside is having to wear cat tracks so that you don't destroy the cant.
post #43 of 51
How do footbeds fit into the mix?

Are there any simple tests or indicators skiers perform to tell if they need to get some help?
post #44 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
FWIW, I had mine done by Greg Hoffman of GMOL, and I have noticed a substantial difference. I don't know why you would use any other canting method. The only downside is having to wear cat tracks so that you don't destroy the cant.
You're not going to ruin your angles by walkiing on them- if that were true, your skis wouldn't sit flat on the snow with cants. They're going to wear evenly despite the fact tht the sole is at an angle unless you make a habit out of walking on only the inner or outer half of your foot. What will wear an angle into your boots is if you're severly out of alignment and don't have cants- but again, that's one 1 in 100 people.
post #45 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
How do footbeds fit into the mix?

Are there any simple tests or indicators skiers perform to tell if they need to get some help?
Ive been told that the correctly made footbed has several benefits, but that alignment is not significantly effected by a correctly made footbed. A badly made footbed will have a negative impact on alignment, however.

Michael
post #46 of 51
Before adding my what-fer I would like to say how good it is to be back on line after about 6 years of working for a living. I hope you can take the following advice to heart and as to your "canting" woes.

You should always start at the foot in regards to canting. The following order must be checked before a sole grind.

Foot Alignment(Custom Orthotic in neutral)
Internal Canting(baseboard, shims, etc)
Upper Cuff Alignment(if applicable in boot model)
External Canting(lug evaluation)
Ski Canting

One advancement to boots in the last few years is external rotated shells a few degrees or so. This has virtually eliminated a need for grinding. An excellent example of this model boot is the Hawx from Atomic!

I hope this will help. I look foward to all boot issues being quelled as they come along. I will be monitoring the Barking Bear all Spring.

Good Luck!

Johnnyatomic
post #47 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618 View Post
You're not going to ruin your angles by walkiing on them- if that were true, your skis wouldn't sit flat on the snow with cants. They're going to wear evenly despite the fact tht the sole is at an angle unless you make a habit out of walking on only the inner or outer half of your foot. What will wear an angle into your boots is if you're severly out of alignment and don't have cants- but again, that's one 1 in 100 people.
Where do you get your statistics???
What is your background in this area?

Walking in ski boots wears the edges and creates a convex sole which rocks back and forth when set on a flat surface. This is undesireable in that it creates inaccuracies in edging the skis. The flatter and truer the boot sole the stronger and more accurate the edge engagement.

Also, many new boots right out of the box are not flat and the better boot fitters will "true" or plane a small amount of material off the uneven soles to achieve a very flat boot sole. I do this on every boot before I do alignment assessments to insure accuracy of the assessment.

b
post #48 of 51
Hi JohnnyBGoode,

Welcome to Epic!

What is your background in skiing? You obviously have some experience with boot issues, tell us more about yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny B Goode View Post
Foot Alignment(Custom Orthotic in neutral)
Internal Canting(baseboard, shims, etc)
Upper Cuff Alignment(if applicable in boot model)
External Canting(lug evaluation)
Ski Canting
Why would one need to cant the ski if the boots were canted correctly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny B Goode View Post
One advancement to boots in the last few years is external rotated shells a few degrees or so. This has virtually eliminated a need for grinding. An excellent example of this model boot is the Hawx from Atomic!
This is a pretty bold general statement that I disagree with. How has this design "virtually eliminated a need for grinding"?... Are you saying that whether a person is undercanted or overcanted this boot will solve their issues? Are you saying that if a person tracks outside-in or inside-out, this boot will solve their problems?....

b
post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Where do you get your statistics???
What is your background in this area?
My background includes two years in shops (which serviced both top level junior racers and excellent freeskiers), 6 years of instructing, and about 10 years of racing (USSA through USCSA). I ski 50ish days/year in all sorts of conditions and on all sorts of terrain. Sure, its not quite the same credentials as cantman or bob peters, but my thoughts on the processes are informed and supported by many of my peers. My statistics, while definitely just ballpark figures, come from seeing hundreds of skiers having alignment evaluations done and skiing with lots of qualified individuals, many of whoms ideas on the topic differ from my own.

He asked.
post #50 of 51
Can you ski without your boots being canted? Of course. Most people do and unconsciously compensate for misalignment issues. They may be very good skiers. Can you ski even better if you deal with alignment issues? Yes. I've heard it from many skiers who found a noticeable difference. Correct canting eliminates the need to compensate. For people who are quite bowlegged or knock kneed the best efforts to compensate will be of limited value.

It seems to me that, especially if you are looking for the responsiveness of a plug boot, they should be set it up correctly or alignment issues will, if anything, be exacerbated. Most people can benefit from sole or binding shim alignment whether in plug boots or not. How much seems to depends on individual morphology and the typical snow conditions skied in.

In a way it seems comparable to driving with the front end of the car misaligned. Can you drive all day? Sure. Can you deal with the misalignment? Sure. Is it easier, more precise and and less fatiguing to drive a car that's properly aligned? I'd say yes. If you never drove anything but a misaligned car you'd take that as normal and compensate. But there is a difference.

Warren Witherall's seminal works on carving spend a great deal of space devoted to canting boot soles. So do racers but you need not be a racer to benifit.
post #51 of 51
exactly lostboy,

You will not know the grass could be greener until you walk through it!

Some don't care,
some don't know,
some continually seek any advantage to progress their skiing to the next level.
some just want to justify their lack of knowing by defending where they are at now and say that is all anybody needs.
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