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What makes for a good crud buster? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
I'm sorry, What is a bro?
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski=free View Post
I'm sorry, What is a bro?
www.pmgear.com
post #33 of 53
There is no right answer to this question. There is no right answer to most of these gear questions, that's why they all turn into 5 page arguments, arguments that might as well be about the relative worth of different pizza topings. It's personal taste.
post #34 of 53
Agree with Tromano that "crud buster" means at least two things:

1) Wide damp soft snow ski with moderate stiffness to it for yesterday's pow, deep chop, and forming big moguls. Exemplars: Goats 183 and up, all Supermojos, most Sugar Daddy's and B-Squads.

2) Possibly narrower, definitely beefier GS design for blasting though partially frozen chop, heavy slop, often with ice underneath, can be on frontside or backside. Exemplars: Stockli XL's and SS's, Elan 777's, Head 88's.

These are very different skis with very different missions.
post #35 of 53
Thread Starter 
That's quite right. Like soft bumps vs. icy bumps, there're soft crud and frozen crud.

I hadn't thought about the frozen stuff. Yes, I can't see they're adifferent animal altogether.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Agree with Tromano that "crud buster" means at least two things:

1) Wide damp soft snow ski with moderate stiffness to it for yesterday's pow, deep chop, and forming big moguls. Exemplars: Goats 183 and up, all Supermojos, most Sugar Daddy's and B-Squads.

2) Possibly narrower, definitely beefier GS design for blasting though partially frozen chop, heavy slop, often with ice underneath, can be on frontside or backside. Exemplars: Stockli XL's and SS's, Elan 777's, Head 88's.

These are very different skis with very different missions.
Have you skied any of the skis you just mentioned?
post #37 of 53
At the moment, I own a 04 Goat, 05 Stockli XL, have recently purchased a 06 Stockli SS that I haven't skied yet (perhaps this weekend if the snow keeps up), have demoed the 06 88. Rely on Dawgcatching and others for take on 777 (I've skied the 05 666, so know the general feel) and Sugar Daddy (only skied B-5 and some intermediates, owned Rex's); Rely on Bob Peters and others for take on Supermojo (I've skied the 06 Mojo 90, 88, own 06 Supershapes and 06 iM82's, so I'm fairly familiar with current Heads); various mags for B-Squads (I own several Rossis made between 1994 and 2005, and have skied the old B-3's (now B-4's), in 04. That good enough?
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski=free View Post
I'm sorry, What is a bro?
S&C too?
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
At the moment, I own a 04 Goat, 05 Stockli XL, have recently purchased a 06 Stockli SS that I haven't skied yet (perhaps this weekend if the snow keeps up), have demoed the 06 88. Rely on Dawgcatching and others for take on 777 (I've skied the 05 666, so know the general feel) and Sugar Daddy (only skied B-5 and some intermediates, owned Rex's); Rely on Bob Peters and others for take on Supermojo (I've skied the 06 Mojo 90, 88, own 06 Supershapes and 06 iM82's, so I'm fairly familiar with current Heads); various mags for B-Squads (I own several Rossis made between 1994 and 2005, and have skied the old B-3's (now B-4's), in 04. That good enough?
Not really, let me let you in on some info and sure others will back me up.

B squads and Supermojos are in a completely different category from the goats and sugars. Gotmas and sugar daddies are both very soft flexing skis. Also both the b squads and the Supermojos are MUCH stiffer than at least one of your stiffer flexing skis, the only one I have skied on, the im88. And from hand flexing the stockli xl it feels softer than both the squad and the supermojo. The squads which I own and the Supermojo's which I have skied are both more suited to the second category 'cept for with 35 and 40m turn radii I would call them a beefier SG design rather than a beefier gs one. The im88's, while a good crud busting ski for lower level skiers, or just those who ski slower, is much more suited to easier, softer crud due to a much softer shovel. Also while I really like the 193 sugar daddy (first fat ski i ever tried) it is definently soft and will deflect in seriously setting up crud especially at higher speeds definetly a world apart from the supermojos and squads. The feel on the mojo 90's 88's 82's etc are a world apart in terms of curd from the supermojos. Also just like with the heads the feel in crud of pretty much every other rossi is nothing like that of the squads.

Hope that helped
post #40 of 53
The 193 Supermojo is probably the stiffest non-race stock ski I've ever gotten my hands on... definitely a different breed of ski than the Goat.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takecontrol618 View Post
The 193 Supermojo is probably the stiffest non-race stock ski I've ever gotten my hands on... definitely a different breed of ski than the Goat.
I just bought the 183 im103 and that was my same impression as well. It is much stiffer than the Stockli SS's or Head 88's. Head and shoulders above them actually.
post #42 of 53
Mostly in response to GaryZ and "skiing like a linebacker"
Hmm..

Gary, please note my ski selection. RC4, G4, Explosive. Stiff? Wide?? Phat???
Got it covered, and use them all! 'Like them all too!

Now to the thread, As mentioned above, there are many useful tools for crud bustin', and even more preferences. We can only clip into one pair at a time however. So when you come out of the kneedeep fresh of the trees into the sun baked cut up crap in the run out, You just have to go with what you have on your feet. And in your head! Attitude!

Standing tall for me comes from the hips up, Power and control come from the hips down. I strive for a relaxed and quiet upper body with an active and subtle lower half. Long muscles are strong muscles Let 'em do what they are meant to do.

Smile and enjoy the face splash.

Repeat as desired.

The smiles come as the miles go.


CalG
post #43 of 53
PhilT, sorry if my take bothers you. OTOH, you make your own unsupported assumptions. And I'm not sure that loads of "others will back you up" on them. They are:

1) That we shouldn't make statements about skis we haven't skied. Well, if so, then 3/4 of the posts in the gear section would go south. Including yours above, since you judge several skis you haven't skied.

2) That I claimed Goats and Sugar Daddy's and so on are SIMILAR to Supermojos etc. What I actually said was they they were all good deep soft crud busters. You read your own meaning into that, aparently because you want to feel the skis you own/ski are unique, and then you reacted to your own meaning. Ditto for the second list. I was grouping these skis by their missions, not their constructions or flex or demands. Finally, I was writting about the Supermojo 105. I have a feeling you're writing about the 103. Really different skis, I'm told.

3) That a ski has to be SG stiff/appropriate for pro teams to qualify as great in deep crud. That may reflect your style of skiing or size. But a ski's reactions to crud depends on the skiers weight and height, typical speed, the ski's weight, damping agents, stiffness, and how that stiffness and those damping agents are distributed over the ski body. A lot of folks here who are legitimate experts believe the Goat to be the best all around pow/crud ski there is. I included a range of flexes in each list to accomodate different types of styles and sizes.

You also made several statements that are at odds with what most people report:

1) That XL's are softer than Squads or Supermojos (based on hand flexing). Read some of the threads here on XL's, or reviews in mags. They're a barely detuned wider GS. Anyone who knows Stocklis also knows that they're famous for having soft tips and tails that rapidly turn into very beefy, stiff middles. Stocklis use the softness at each to absorb vibrations, create an uniquely smooth feel. The SS has a very easy flexing tip, incidentally, and I think Schmidt would be surprised if anyone claimed he helped design a noodle that can't handle crud at speed. By contrast, if you read Skier219's discussion with me about length and flex, you'll realize that longer, wider skis have to be softer, not stiffer, than shorter, narrower skis. Its all about how weight is spread over SA. So I doubt that an XL is softer than a B-Squad.

2) That Sugar Daddy's are soft flexing skis. Not from what most here who ski them say; in fact they're usually decribed as having beefy centers that allow them to bust crud with the best of them, and carve hardpack the same day. Again, I think you're imposing your apparent love of very stiff beefy skis on what most people here mean by "stiff" or "soft." You're also again confusing tip flex with the part of the ski that really counts - the middle - and performance in crud with static stiffness. Go hand flex a Rossi B-3; it's stiffer at the tip than a iM82. Does that mean they handle crud similarly?

3) That iM88's are a good design for "lower level skiers." Given that a lot of excellent skiers on these threads, including instructors, ski them, and given that reviews universally speak of their damp power in crud, that's an odd statement. I demoed them (read my post), and I found them to be maneuverable, yes, but not flexy, and not "worlds apart" from the iM82. Both do very well in crud, the 88 is better.

4) That the feel in crud of a pro ski like the B-Squad is not comparable to any other ski in the line. Well, perhaps, but most people who ski Rossis say that the B-Squads have the same damp, quiet feel in crud as you'd expect from a Rossi, just more of it; they're stiffer and damper. So it's a matter of degree. This makes sense since any company competes in the market by developing product identification with a set of qualities or "feel" over it's entire line. IMO, all current Heads (even the Mojo 90) share a certain "feel" (light on the snow, lively but relatively damp, relatively stiff) and I doubt that the Supermojos feel like B-Squads, for instance. So I don't think it's outlandish to extrapolate. But ask Bob Peters or Dawgcatching; they have a lot more experience with Heads than either you or I.

Hope this helps.
post #44 of 53
Crud Busting is all about the personality of the ski tip. IMO the width does not matter much. As others have noted, a wide high soft tip will keep trying to climb on top of the heavier snow, a tendency you have to keep fighting. The ideal crud ski has a fairly low profile tip that is torsonally stiff combined with a flex in the front of the ski that perfectly matches your weight/speed and snow conditions. When these things all come together you can control your speed without turning. You simply apply pressure to the tips to slow down and easy up to accelerate. I think of it as a reverse gas pedal. The perfect ski changes depending on the density of the crud and the speed you are skiing. In my experience crud usually has several speeds that work and several that don't work for any particular ski.
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilT View Post
Not really, let me let you in on some info and sure others will back me up.

B squads and Supermojos are in a completely different category from the goats and sugars. Gotmas and sugar daddies are both very soft flexing skis. Also both the b squads and the Supermojos are MUCH stiffer than at least one of your stiffer flexing skis, the only one I have skied on, the im88. And from hand flexing the stockli xl it feels softer than both the squad and the supermojo. The squads which I own and the Supermojo's which I have skied are both more suited to the second category 'cept for with 35 and 40m turn radii I would call them a beefier SG design rather than a beefier gs one. The im88's, while a good crud busting ski for lower level skiers, or just those who ski slower, is much more suited to easier, softer crud due to a much softer shovel. Also while I really like the 193 sugar daddy (first fat ski i ever tried) it is definently soft and will deflect in seriously setting up crud especially at higher speeds definetly a world apart from the supermojos and squads. The feel on the mojo 90's 88's 82's etc are a world apart in terms of curd from the supermojos. Also just like with the heads the feel in crud of pretty much every other rossi is nothing like that of the squads.

Hope that helped
This, my friends, is teenage dick waving.
post #46 of 53
I've used both my K2 outlaws and chiefs in deep powder and broken crud. The softer chief is more of a pure powder ski. The outlaw bombs through anything, but doesn't float as well. The two layers of metal in the outlaw keep the ski damp. Looks like we just have to keep a ski for each condition on hand.
post #47 of 53
I've skied my K2 chiefs in crud and powder and have used my outlaws for the same. The chief wins hands down for pow, the outlaw in crud. The difference is the two layers of metal in the outlaw. Technique is paramount, being on edge makes skiing crud a blast, hence a ski with some shape makes life easier.
post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
This, my friends, is teenage dick waving.
The kid may be young but on this subject he speaks from experience. Don't discredit the young because of their opinions. The confidence of a stiff ski in crud is hard to explain . It's like skiing with terrain ignortion except you ski with snow texture ignortion. It's easy ,high spirited skiing that opens terrain many leave alone because of the texture of the snow. Skiing tall without over working the quads is available with a stiff ,fat ski like the Squad. i guess you gotta try it to understand. It's like all is powder or loose snow . Little deflection and any shape turns you desire . Not just locked into a big wide turn.
post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfoot View Post
Crud Busting is all about the personality of the ski tip. IMO the width does not matter much. As others have noted, a wide high soft tip will keep trying to climb on top of the heavier snow, a tendency you have to keep fighting. The ideal crud ski has a fairly low profile tip that is torsonally stiff combined with a flex in the front of the ski that perfectly matches your weight/speed and snow conditions. When these things all come together you can control your speed without turning. You simply apply pressure to the tips to slow down and easy up to accelerate. I think of it as a reverse gas pedal. The perfect ski changes depending on the density of the crud and the speed you are skiing. In my experience crud usually has several speeds that work and several that don't work for any particular ski.
Well put! And I think that you are right that skis have a particular characteristic range of snow that they are tuned into; outside of that range they start to become less effective.
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I think that you are right that skis have a particular characteristic range of snow that they are tuned into; outside of that range they start to become less effective.
I have spent a lot of time skiing crud on different skis over the years and it seems that for most skis in most crud I've found two speeds where they work well. If you are going too slow, or between the two optimum speeds the skis don't work effectively. I always enjoy it when I exceed the slow speed and the skis quite working well and then suddenly they kick in again when you reach the correct higher speed. I suppose with some skis there is probably a third level where they are also extremely effective, but I have never reached it. You never know when a particular ski will start or stop working well in the crud, but I love the search for the right circumstances were it all comes together and suddenly the ride smooths out and you can turn them like its untracked. Many people think I'm crazy but I enjoy good crud just as much as untracked powder. Take a ski like the Explosivs, crank them up to speed in some tastey crud, then squint your eyes and make believe it's untracked. When a lot of folks are bitch'n because the snow is "all skied up" others are just start'n to have fun. Life is good when you have found a crud ski that works for you.
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
PhilT, sorry if my take bothers you. OTOH, you make your own unsupported assumptions. And I'm not sure that loads of "others will back you up" on them. They are:

1) That we shouldn't make statements about skis we haven't skied. Well, if so, then 3/4 of the posts in the gear section would go south. Including yours above, since you judge several skis you haven't skied.
Not once did I say that we shouldnt make statments about skis we havent skied. All I was trying to correct what I felt was misleading information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
2) That I claimed Goats and Sugar Daddy's and so on are SIMILAR to Supermojos etc. What I actually said was they they were all good deep soft crud busters.
the way it read though was that you would better off buying a softer ski for partially frozen crud and a stiffer ski for softer crud, which in my opinion is kind of backwards

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
You read your own meaning into that, aparently because you want to feel the skis you own/ski are unique, and then you reacted to your own meaning.
This is pretty stupid, i dont feel the skis I own are unique, maybe if I owned a pair of Iggys or capitals I would, but I own a production ski from a major manufaturer. Many people ski squads (the skisI own, I do not own supermojos) including several members of this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Ditto for the second list. I was grouping these skis by their missions, not their constructions or flex or demands.
By their missions??? what are you talking about? Oh, are you saying that fatter skis "mission" must be softer snow while skinnier skis must do better in firmer snow?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Finally, I was writting about the Supermojo 105. I have a feeling you're writing about the 103. Really different skis, I'm told.
True the 105 is a different ski than the 103, I was actually talking about last years supermojo which is very similar to this years 103 but was the only "supermojo" availble and was with out a numeral designation, it was just the supermojo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
3) That a ski has to be SG stiff/appropriate for pro teams to qualify as great in deep crud. That may reflect your style of skiing or size. But a ski's reactions to crud depends on the skiers weight and height, typical speed, the ski's weight, damping agents, stiffness, and how that stiffness and those damping agents are distributed over the ski body. A lot of folks here who are legitimate experts believe the Goat to be the best all around pow/crud ski there is. I included a range of flexes in each list to accomodate different types of styles and sizes.
Stiffer skis do better in crud, based on the skiers weight/speed etc, a skier may or may not need that extra crud busting ability but we are talking about the characteristic which makes a good crud buster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
You also made several statements that are at odds with what most people report:

1) That XL's are softer than Squads or Supermojos (based on hand flexing). Read some of the threads here on XL's, or reviews in mags. They're a barely detuned wider GS. Anyone who knows Stocklis also knows that they're famous for having soft tips and tails that rapidly turn into very beefy, stiff middles. Stocklis use the softness at each to absorb vibrations, create an uniquely smooth feel. The SS has a very easy flexing tip, incidentally, and I think Schmidt would be surprised if anyone claimed he helped design a noodle that can't handle crud at speed. By contrast, if you read Skier219's discussion with me about length and flex, you'll realize that longer, wider skis have to be softer, not stiffer, than shorter, narrower skis. Its all about how weight is spread over SA. So I doubt that an XL is softer than a B-Squad.
I never called the SS's noodles that cant handle crud but based on other replies in the thread and what other people have said and my own hand flexing, the XL's ARE softer than a Supermojo or Squad/

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
2) That Sugar Daddy's are soft flexing skis. Not from what most here who ski them say; in fact they're usually decribed as having beefy centers that allow them to bust crud with the best of them, and carve hardpack the same day. Again, I think you're imposing your apparent love of very stiff beefy skis on what most people here mean by "stiff" or "soft." You're also again confusing tip flex with the part of the ski that really counts - the middle - and performance in crud with static stiffness. Go hand flex a Rossi B-3; it's stiffer at the tip than a iM82. Does that mean they handle crud similarly?
Sugar daddies are great skis but the tip and tail are soft and the center is not all that "beefy". The soft is most certainly a relative statment, compared to supermojos or squads, they are noodles. Compared to a gotoma they are stiff. Also in crud tip stiffness is very important aswell as stiffness through the entire ski because that is the part which breaks through the crud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
3) That iM88's are a good design for "lower level skiers." Given that a lot of excellent skiers on these threads, including instructors, ski them, and given that reviews universally speak of their damp power in crud, that's an odd statement. I demoed them (read my post), and I found them to be maneuverable, yes, but not flexy, and not "worlds apart" from the iM82. Both do very well in crud, the 88 is better.
First of all I never called them worlds apart from an im82. And yes I have skied them too and they are great skis and work for most crud busting but they have a definite speed limit. By the lower level skiers comment I most certainly dont mean that you have to be a low level skier to ski on them, no way! I am just saying that they are good for lower level skiers because they are much more forgiving of user error than a supermojo. Very manuverable and "carvy" but that damp power in crud only extends so far. Great 1 ski quiver for a patroler or instructor who spends most of thier time skiing at moderate speeds but wants a ski that works well in small amounts of powder and softer crud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
4) That the feel in crud of a pro ski like the B-Squad is not comparable to any other ski in the line. Well, perhaps, but most people who ski Rossis say that the B-Squads have the same damp, quiet feel in crud as you'd expect from a Rossi, just more of it; they're stiffer and damper. So it's a matter of degree. This makes sense since any company competes in the market by developing product identification with a set of qualities or "feel" over it's entire line. IMO, all current Heads (even the Mojo 90) share a certain "feel" (light on the snow, lively but relatively damp, relatively stiff) and I doubt that the Supermojos feel like B-Squads, for instance. So I don't think it's outlandish to extrapolate. But ask Bob Peters or Dawgcatching; they have a lot more experience with Heads than either you or I.
Hope this helps.
I completly agree with everything you said in this paragraph; except for what you said about extrapolation you wernt extrapolating feel, you were extrapolating crud busting abiltiy which varies greatly between models a B1 is not comprable to a B3 in crud busting abilitys either.





Hope this helps
post #52 of 53
Oh! By the way

Crud just might be my favorite skiing! Good thing, When the fresh is gone, theres lots of crud left to push up into bumps !

Skip the tops!

CalG
post #53 of 53
I like to ride on top of it. So I guess that why the PE and Gotamas are both in my quiver. both in soft but cut up snow are awesome. I found my sugar daddy to put me off balance in crud. Neither the PE or Gotamas are good if its re frozen balls of snow, but the gotama is alittle better. Tromano and ItaliaC4S1953 have witnessed the crud busting in action
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