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Shortish turns, yada yada yada

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
Okay, I am officially a masochist. Here is a followup video to Longish turns in which I am on longer skis, doing a shorter radius turn, skiing faster, on a steeper section of the same run as before. The snow is dust on crust, more dust on the top half and more crust on the bottom.

Have at it: http://video.epicski.com/ma/joan3072.wmv

Notice the arms and hands, if you would pay special attention, since that's what I am working on. Bonus points for anyone who can discern what my cue for change is...e.g., what my specific intent is.
post #2 of 28
Well, when I played the video it looked like I was watching a clip from "Yellow Submarine" or something that Peter Max would have done, but I wish that I could ski so well!
post #3 of 28
Your body isn't always properly in line, by which I mean the force that your are directing down onto the skis is not perpendicular to your upper body, you are essentially bending at the waist to little or to much.

Your hands are a little "lazy", after you plant on several occasions you don't bring them forward again until the next plant.
post #4 of 28
Oh gee, you don't have to ski like an 800 pound gorilla to have fun? Who knew?

Focusing on the arms and hands....
The hands never get behind the hips! It's good to see them oriented to the future.

Both hands are generally kept above the waist, but your left hand dips down below the jacket line farther and more often than your than right hand. Both pole swings have a little pop to the hands as if your poles were too long and you had to raise your hands up to allow a vertical pole touch. Looking at the 3 left pole swings in the first seven seconds you can also see a little outward movement of the hand just before the pole touch. I see pole firing more with a tiny bit of arm swing combined with wrist extension rather than with a wrist flick. I don't see elbow movement forward as a cue for hip movement forward.

A SWAG for intent was keeping the hands more forward vs airplane in an attempt to keep them up. Since intent is only a guess, I'll stop the MA at the observations.
post #5 of 28
I like this video better than the previous one, thanks for posting it.

As regards your hands, here's a shot from last year's ESA compilation.

Your hands are down by your sides, and are not driving toward the new turn. Obviously you realized this and are working on it.

Here's a left turn still from a similar point in this new clip:


I see improvement here, as your outside hand is driving forward at the turn apex in preparation for the transition.
______________________

The hand issue aside, I see several areas in this clip that could use some work.

First and foremost, the transition. In both of this year's clips, your transitions are characterized by an up move where your knees almost lock out straight, as shown here:

By doing this, all of the energy from your previous turn is released up, instead of across the hill. While it works for these type of low edge angle turns, it will NOT work when the speed and angles are increased, much less an SL course (not a concern of yours, I realize). I think your overall efficiency would be greatly increased if you implemented more flexion in the transition.

In contrast, here are stills from one of my videos from last year:


In flexing through the transition, you will save yourself energy and will enable yourself to change edges more quickly, in addition to enabling yourself to harness the acceleration forces of the previous turn.
____________

I also noticed a large discrepancy between your right turns and left turns. You tend to rotate your shoulder and upper body into your left turns, dramatically decreasing the amount of outside ski edge pressure you are able to develop. You stay more square in your right turns. Notice that the hand issue largely takes care of itself in the right turns, where your shoulders stay square.

Compare these two turns:


The rotation in your left turns completely prevents you from developing counter and angulation, which would increase the amount of pressure you could apply to the outside ski. In contrast, you do not rotate in the right turn, and, consequently, are able to develop some slight angulation. As I said above, notice how the hands are forward and active in the non-rotated turn, but are more down and inactive in the rotary turn.

My favorite turn from this clip is shown here:

You do not rotate your shoulders, develop some nice angulation, and get your hands well forward. Nice work!

I think fixing the issues described above will make your skiing both more powerful AND more efficient.
post #6 of 28
Great turns. Nice smooth, progressive skills application - rythm and flow. Hands looks fine to me.

I am going to watch that clip all summer!!
post #7 of 28

nice

I do the pole drag thingy with the right hand too especially....another trick I use to stay square......

Noticed at about 12 seconds you lost contact with the snow(right hand pole tip) and the right hand dropped back a bit....

Is the tip drag part of your drill as it was mine?

I think these visuals might be excellent for many posters on this board to shoot for.

Perhaps you are working on an instructional video?

Sign me up for a copy:
post #8 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Both pole swings have a little pop to the hands as if your poles were too long and you had to raise your hands up to allow a vertical pole touch.
Trying to make pole touches without sinking the tips in?
post #9 of 28
Nolo-that is beautiful, elegant, efficient skiing. One of the better clips that I have seen on this site (amateur or pro)!
post #10 of 28
Nolo:

In this clip you still show too much upper body rotation, especially in your turns to the right. It is essentially the same thing as seen in the previous clip of your long turns. It is how you ski. You can fix it and become a better skier if you want to.

These turns would pass at Level 2 CSIA in Canada. But not at Level 3. And they're not even in the ball park for Level 4.

You are, however, still a good skier.

with respect and regards,

cdnguy
post #11 of 28
Nolo, great skiing . If this video was made on the same day, whatever adjustments you did worked very much in your favor.

However, no matter how well we ski there are still some issues that can be diled in and DD223's did IMO some very good observations. I too see your tendency to ski too square which Im affraid lends to hip rotation when going gets tougher. In the last turn to the left that was clearly visiable. Also the prominent up-movement is there but that doesent really bother me because you are skiing GS turns and I think that its ok to pass through the transition like WC skiers such as Eric Quay, extended.

Since you are working on your arms I would suggest you ski this kind of terrain without any polemarks at all. Now lets see what is your intent.... hooking your skiis into a carve early in the turn....
post #12 of 28

New video, thank you.

I Like doublediamond's post!
In order: Improvement, needs flexed neutral, left turn/right turn asymmetries, left turn needs focus/counter and lastly the hand position. IMO this says a lot. Bolter
post #13 of 28
That looks much better!

It's hard to criticize your technique due to the lack of counter and clear up move during transition:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...-gs-1-web.html

Others say you need to "ski into counter to ramp it up!":

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...-gs-2-web.html

But that was not the type of turn being demonstrated. Others do not think that you really need to counter at all before you ramp it up:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...5-gs-1-wm.html

(Although please note the flexion and inside hand, esp. frame 5 above. Mancuso tends to point either the entire arm or just elbow uphill after the gate. Why? My answer later.)

IMO the amount of tip lead in some shots would satisfy Greg Gurshman's appraisal of how square one ought to remain to the skis. (Everything I've read of his, tells me that he feels a countered position is not central to skiing - an opinion that is not widely held among many posters here).

The outside arm driving forwards does indicate some rotation, though some think that it is necessary for recentering in preparation for the next turn.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...pletion-b.html

My answer: The inside arm is up and forwards to assist recentering -- it will slow rotation. If the inside hand is down and in , the rotation will be accelerated.

While everyone agrees that flexion between turns is desireable, I don't think that was the point of this skiing.

I will guess that nolo's intent was to maintain an activated core, show some angulation, and bend the bigger ski, whiile remaining mostly square to the skis.

Flexion would only make the skiing faster. The up move takes away a lot of energy. I don't think "stinky fast" was part of the intent.

IMO, a Mancuso-like attention to the inside arm is desireable, to control the rotation as you square up and recenter.

Thanks for sharing the video.
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
I was trying to pick up the pole after the touch so as not to lean on it even subtly. I see I was more successful with my right than my left, but I think the drill is helping me in this area of weakness. I realize it is the opposite of the advice to drag the pole after the touch. Call me contrary.

In my opinion, the person on this site who deserves special recognition for MA is TheRusty, who is a great model for not rushing to the evaluation before completing the inventory. Having the patience to "go at least a couple of questions deep," as one of my trainers put it, is very difficult, but it's the only way to clear the filter of bias from your eyes.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
...the person on this site who deserves special recognition for MA is TheRusty...

If he teaches as well in person as he does on the internet, he will pass his L3 teaching easily.
post #16 of 28
Thank you all for the kind words. I'm here to help and to learn and especially to learn by helping.
post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I realize it is the opposite of the advice to drag the pole after the touch. Call me contrary.
I would never advice anybody to drag their poles behind them and have never heared of such a thing untill here in these threads. A very good coach once pointed out in print that the best way to work on your pole plants is to first omit them. I used to drag my inside pole behind me, still do sometimes in powder, but pritty successfully got rid of it after 15y of teaching kids without ski poles.

My suggestion for you would be to ski without ski poles if you seriously want to get rid of dragging the inside ski pole behind you. I can see from the video that you are still dragging it. Both your ski poles bounce off the snow a second time after the initial pole plant and are being dragged behind until lifted up in the air as you de-incline comming into transition. Your right ski pole gets more air due to more banking on your left turns.
post #18 of 28
Really nice skiing, nolo. The right amount of movement for the speed and snow conditions. There is a little up motion in the transition which could be directed more diagionally into the new turn. Nice video!

RW
post #19 of 28
Nolo,
When I look at your video, I see someone who can flat out ski. Your movements are fluid and you’ve got a great feel for turning skis. I’d love to watch you live.

I would like to ask you some questions. I just noticed your qualifications of PSIA examiner and Level 3 cert. Would you be willing to comment on the various technical appraisals of your skiing, without names of persons who provided input. I’ve always had this concern that MA feedback is conflicting at best, and, much feedback is focused on stoking the ego of the reviewer, rather than helping the skier improve. What advice would you offer to a skier who has submitted MA, but does not have technical knowledge and background, so they could sort out the various responses? Do you have a trusted adviser that you review video with and plan to keep developing your skills? One reviewer offered some more objective analysis via photo’s with encouragement to modify certain body positions. Is that analysis consistent with the style you are seeking to achieve?

I’m guessing some comments made you want to bite your tongue. Would you do it again?
post #20 of 28

Moderator.... HELP

This has been a very good thread but I wish some moderator would step in and sort out the screen format. Its impossible to read. I know this has happened before and its been corrected.

Thanx
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thank you, med, and others who have commented thus far.

Med, I try to consider the source when I receive feedback on my skiing. If I didn't cherry pick the advice, I would be tied in knots trying to do everything my critics felt I should have been doing and didn't. I think there is a common thread in people's criticism of my skiing and that is that it looks too laid back, which I take as an affirmation. I aim to ski on the edge of total relaxation, while others may prefer a harder edge to their skiing.

I post video here every spring and generally get the same sorts of comments, which taken altogether would strongly suggest a career change. To doublecheck that, I take our divisional refresher course every fall with a member of the PSIA D-Team to get input on my skiing that I apply throughout the season.

I have had many excellent MA clinics in my career and I think the most important thing I learned was to make the evaluation/judgment the last step in the process, not the first, which is the mistake I see most novices make in MA. If you start with a judgment, then you start with bias, and bias filters what you will allow your eyes to see. The analysis becomes an argument in support of the judgment, not an objective observation of what is happening. Good analysis should lead to an evaluation based on evidence rather than the observer's opinion/bias.

To those who give MA here, I would like to share the findings of extensive research into the relative power of negative and positive feedback in facilitating performance change. Positive feedback is vastly superior. Building on what a person is doing right is far more likely to bring lasting results than tearing him or her down for doing it wrong. It is better to allow people to naturally select what works over what does not work, and to allow dysfunctional behaviors to extinguish themselves through disuse.

This brings up an important tenet of neurolinguistic programming: the mind does not understand the word no and all its derivatives (such as "don't do x"). In other words, negative instructions are as futile as negative feedback. The mind only hears "do x."

P.S. In 2002, after 14 years of service, I retired from examining and resigned all of my PSIA positions (I was executive v-p of PSIA at the time) in order to become involved here without strings attached. I hold PSIA L3 certification (1984), Accredited Children's Educator (ACE) (2001), Level I USSCA (1985), and a master's degree in Sport & Athletic Administration (2002).
post #22 of 28
Good post Nolo. Your claim to be a self mashokist (spelling??) at the beginning of this thread kind of triggered people to increase pain insted of easing it off.

Anyway, good thread and you are perfectly right about the sort of MA given here. IMHO you were also caught in a bad moment here at epci with the feud between XXXX and XXXX in full blossom so that kind of came to your dissadvantage. The things I commented on your skiing I still stick to and serves as an outsiders viewpoint since I have never even skied on your continent. Your skiing is great and I like your realxed approach, keep on skiing and maybe Ill run into you someday and you can give me a lesson.

TDK
post #23 of 28
Thread Starter 
tdk6, your sentiments are entirely shared. I take your comments to heart, enjoy watching your videos, admire your skiing, and hope someday we can share a few runs and helicopter rides on a bluebird powder day (since we're dreamin' a bit here).
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
tdk6, your sentiments are entirely shared. I take your comments to heart, enjoy watching your videos, admire your skiing, and hope someday we can share a few runs and helicopter rides on a bluebird powder day (since we're dreamin' a bit here).
Pease, love and powder skiing

TDK
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have had many excellent MA clinics in my career and I think the most important thing I learned was to make the evaluation/judgment the last step in the process, not the first, which is the mistake I see most novices make in MA. If you start with a judgment, then you start with bias, and bias filters what you will allow your eyes to see. The analysis becomes an argument in support of the judgment, not an objective observation of what is happening. Good analysis should lead to an evaluation based on evidence rather than the observer's opinion/bias.

To those who give MA here, I would like to share the findings of extensive research into the relative power of negative and positive feedback in facilitating performance change. Positive feedback is vastly superior. Building on what a person is doing right is far more likely to bring lasting results than tearing him or her down for doing it wrong. It is better to allow people to naturally select what works over what does not work, and to allow dysfunctional behaviors to extinguish themselves through disuse.

This brings up an important tenet of neurolinguistic programming: the mind does not understand the word no and all its derivatives (such as "don't do x"). In other words, negative instructions are as futile as negative feedback. The mind only hears "do x."
I thought about quoting the entire post, but I'll cherry pick the best parts...

Outstanding, nolo! And I'd expect nothing less. Interestingly, I think that negative feedback is primarily an ego stroke (as med implies) and positive feedback requires a lot more work. It also requires getting to a real root cause, which is one of the trickiest steps in MA (at least for me). Thanks, too, for tying the truth about neurolinguistics into MA and ski teaching. So many people miss this that it's amazing to me. I'm going to use this immediately!
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have had many excellent MA clinics in my career and I think the most important thing I learned was to make the evaluation/judgment the last step in the process, not the first, which is the mistake I see most novices make in MA. If you start with a judgment, then you start with bias, and bias filters what you will allow your eyes to see. The analysis becomes an argument in support of the judgment, not an objective observation of what is happening. Good analysis should lead to an evaluation based on evidence rather than the observer's opinion/bias.

To those who give MA here, I would like to share the findings of extensive research into the relative power of negative and positive feedback in facilitating performance change. Positive feedback is vastly superior. Building on what a person is doing right is far more likely to bring lasting results than tearing him or her down for doing it wrong. It is better to allow people to naturally select what works over what does not work, and to allow dysfunctional behaviors to extinguish themselves through disuse.
Nolo, brilliant post.
post #27 of 28
Nolo,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts in such a detailed and open manner. In this tech-oriented forum, you showed your heart and passion for our sport. I commend your decision to ski in a manner that represents your personal skiing values.

One filter I use to evaluate any post is the ability to write in a clear well-written manner. Another is the ability to convey that a post represents the thinking/beliefs of the sender, and is free to be dismissed by the receiver. Giving effective feedback is a special skill, compounded by brief internet-skiing messaging. Giving MA feedback kicks it up another notch. Your comment about “going three questions deep” directly applies. We’d all learn more if clarification questions were asked.

I enjoyed especially the following. I said you skiing is “fluid and you have a great feeling for turning your skis”. You said “I aim to ski at the total edge of relaxing”. Others criticism said “I am too laid back”. You said, “I don’t want to ski at the harder edge”. I’ve been described as “laid back”; and I dislike “harder edge” behavior. The nuances of our language can make life difficult.

TDK6 recently posted on the subject of MA feedback. I’d enjoy reading your thoughts should you choose to post.

Best
Mike
post #28 of 28
Speaking as an untrained but interested observer watching from a virtual chairilft riding overhead, your skiing is fluid, graceful, and elegant...verging, at times, on the TDK6-esque. I'm guessing that most of those turns feel as good as they look.

I realized when watching this clip that, when I'm on top of my game, I spend months in the off season getting into shape, grimacing, sweating, enduring, etc etc...just so I can spend a few precious moments on my edges trying to get as close to total relaxation as possible. Go figure.

Also, Nolo, you caught my attention when you mentioned NLP in a follow-up post. I'm sure there are others who have applied NLP princiiples to skiing, but I'm a little mystified about some aspects and applications of neurolinguistic programming. Specifically, I think there's great potential in any technique that helps to align the inner dialog with a person's intentions and dreams, but most of the practical applications of NLP seem to be in areas like sales and real-estate investment. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there seems to me to be so many other areas where NLP could be used for self improvement.

Then again, I guess you've got to start somewhere...
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