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MA request sl turns (yes another one :) - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Thread Starter 
you lost me on the car analogy (perhaps football would work better? but I do get the explanation wrt the skis. Those skis I am on are not pure straight skis - they are shaped somewhat (as were my volants) -2001 i think was just when the shaped revolution was beginning to get started) but neither are/were sl skis. There is no way I could pure arc a slalom turn on those Heads.

ergo ... to ebay to find me a pair of sl skis.
post #32 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Not really.

The short ski makes it easier to "stand on the middle" and make it turn. The mechanics of the carve are largely the same.
So if my 1997/1998 (?) era Rossi 9s was 165 instead of 201 it would bend into the same arc as my SL:11's by rolling it on its edge? Not sure I agree.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahmskis View Post
you lost me on the car analogy (perhaps football would work better? but I do get the explanation wrt the skis. Those skis I am on are not pure straight skis - they are shaped somewhat (as were my volants) -2001 i think was just when the shaped revolution was beginning to get started) but neither are/were sl skis. There is no way I could pure arc a slalom turn on those Heads.

ergo ... to ebay to find me a pair of sl skis.
Whoops, not trying to talk you into spending money. Just should try a modern version of a 12-14M SL ski to see if that's the kind of turn you will enjoy making. It doesn't have to be an "SL", but something along those dimensions. Depending on what you find on eBay, demoing may help you find what you're seeking for less money.

Have fun!!!
post #34 of 46
Medmarkco, I always like your posts. I've typed out a similar response on this thread twice and both times decided not to post it. I'm glad you did.

Sarahmskis, The ski you have is not a bad ski...it's just you are trying to make it do something it's not designed to do.

You know football? Here's a lame attempt at an analogy:

If you look at a professional football team everyone is a great athlete. They are also all very different physically, the backs combine quickness and power, the recievers are like grey hounds, fast and agile, the linemen are like dreadnaughts, immovable objects that push everything out of their way.
Some running backs are excellent blockers, they can help protect a QB on pass plays, but even the best blocking running back can't play left gaurd. It's beyond their physical capabilities, RB's are 200-235lbs Gaurds are 300+lbs. You can't expect the two to do the same tasks, they just can't, it gets ugly when they try.

Modern ski equipment is like a football team, specialized 'athletes' for different tasks. If you want to play at the upper levels of skiing you unfortunately need the specialized equipment.

You can not make a modern SL turn without a modern SL-like ski.

Do you need to buy new skis? NO. If you are willing to accept that there are certain things your current ski really can't do. I bet it'll carve a beautiful mid-radius turn and longer GS-like turns. So what if you have to smear short swing turns? thats a skill also, it works well on steeps and in bumps, carving ain't everything. Can't live without carving short radius turns? Then...

Demo a real hyper sidecut ski like a Head Supershape. It will be an eye opener, super short radius clean carved turns are really 85% ski and 15% pilot. If you like them consider buying some, or just enjoy what you have for what it is.
post #35 of 46
Thread Starter 
Whiteroom,

Even though I was joking about the football analogy (if there is anything i know less about than aircraft and cars, its football) but can I just tell you how much i loved that you tried to explain it in terms of football? Seriously. I'm going to be giggling about this all day. I was out the door and had to come back to post to tell you how awesome i think it is. Football! Sl skis! its exactly the same!

As for the ski - its ok at larger radius. The front of the ski is a bit too soft to hold the edge as strongly as I'd like it on 'ice' but it gets the job done (and really for 50$ who am I going to complain to?). Not bad in the moguls but 180 is a bit long to throw around in the bumps. Powder = terrible. The ski reminds me of the quote that someone here uses (can't remember who) and I'm paraphraising ... that an 'all-mtn ski does everything blah' - it's ok but not really great at anything.

Football... I love it! Off skiing - have a great day you guys and thanks!!!
post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahmskis View Post
Whiteroom,
As for the ski - its ok at larger radius. The front of the ski is a bit too soft to hold the edge as strongly as I'd like it on 'ice' but it gets the job done
Yeah, you need the tortional rigidity while still having the flex lengthwise. That's one of the things that modern skis have gotten very good at. Funny that a good wood core is still the best, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahmskis View Post
that an 'all-mtn ski does everything blah' - it's ok but not really great at anything.
Performs equally poorly under any condition, so true. Every time I hit the mountain I've got at least two pairs in the back of the car.

So I'm pretty much going to say what everybody else has said. Pick up some real skis and start carving those turns. Don't spend huge money though, just pick up something from a year or two back. Not much difference in performance in two years.
post #37 of 46
Sarah -

I was in the same boat as you - the "gradient vs. binary" thing - for a long while.

But trying the new skis really threw me for a reality check loop.

The skis you have now are great for higher-speed GS arcs: longer-radius sidecut, etc. But even my SX:11s (18 meter sidecut) are a chore in SL turns. That's why I've invested in a pair of shorty SL skis (12 meter radius) for the quick stuff.

You'll notice a lot of differences if you go for a 150 or 155cm SL-type ski. It's not as tolerant of excessive fore/aft movement, as there's not a lot of platform beyond the binding and plate. If you watch World Cup SL from the early days of the shorty skis, you'll see folks fall over backwards (and sometimes forward) because they're trying to use old-school tactics on a ski the demands a much more centered balance.

That's where the tip lead comments come into play: you can't get too crazy with tip lead, and it becomes even more evident as the ski length decreases. Excessive tip lead often results in an excessive fore/aft weight distribution, which in turn negates the benefits of the shorter ski. The platform on a new-school SL ski is very center-oriented. Sure, you can use the tip to pull you into a turn, and the tail to get some pop into the next turn, but it's more like a "center+tip" or "center+tail" approach that works on the new skis.

And like I said earlier: it's like learning to ski all over again, in many respects. But as long as you approach the challenge with a sense of humor and a willingness to feel uncomfortable at first, you should do fine. Like I said earlier: you have a great skill set already in place, as is evident in the video you posted. It'll just take some technical adjustment and a new mental approach.

That's why I advocate watching the World Cup vids and photo montages to get a visual sense of what you're after, and then work on some basic, elemental drills (Harb's are as good as any) that you can then assemble into a kick-butt short, SL-style turn.

If you watch some of the World Cup racers, pay close attention to the Austrians and Swedes (both men and women). They have the most sound overall technique, for my money: great movements, economy of basic motions, etc. While Ligety is where all the talk is, his style is much more extreme and doesn't apply as well to free skiing.

Have fun!
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
So if my 1997/1998 (?) era Rossi 9s was 165 instead of 201 it would bend into the same arc as my SL:11's by rolling it on its edge? Not sure I agree.
The arc of an old carving ski won't be as short as the arc of the new carving ski, but the mechanics of the carve are largely the same.
post #39 of 46
Sarah,
I leaving you 3 presents on the ski technique side of this thread

First, from photographer Ron Lemaster site is a photomontage of Marlies Schild the reigning 2007 Ladies FIS Slalom Champion. She is Harald Harb’s poster child for outstanding ski technique. Sometimes I use it as my pc wallpaper.
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/2005-2006/slides/schild-aspen-2005-sl-1-wm.html

Second is a new post on the PMTS site from a Brit who self taught PMTS this year. His experience is similar to mine.
http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=1593

Last, is a brief video of Harb performing short radius turns.
http://www.harbskisystems.com/hhsite/hh1-1.wmv

Final advise: When discussing rebuilding you technique with any instructor, unless they begin with strong tipping movements, run, don’t walk- away.
post #40 of 46
Thread Starter 
Hi med,
I have seen the picture before, and I agree, its a startling example of how one should carve a ski. Thanks for the other presents as well

Oh and since you guys encouraged me in this route, i'm asking your opinion on a pair of skis (apologies if this should be in the equipment thread) but i was bidding on a pair of 2006 salomon lab sl 155cm with bindings. The winner backed out, so the seller has offered them to me for $250 (plus shipping).

They been used for two seasons and have one significant scratch on the base.
Good deal?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEDW:IT
post #41 of 46
Mod Note: Sarah's gear question was copied to the gear forum. Please post your gear replies there.

Thank you.
post #42 of 46
Hi Sarah -

I agree with all the previous posters who feel you are a good old-school skier, but need to go shorter and get on more modern gear if you want to carve your SR turns in the way you describe. With the amount of effort you are putting into those turns, you look like you're coming down a 20 foot wide, 45degree chute, not a blue or light black in-bounds run.

In addition, your comment about the tips of your 180 Head Cyber Ti's feeling soft sends up a red flag. I have found that people who use old-school technique and are used to old-school equipment usually feel that even semi-modern skis are much too soft for their smeared turns. Once you are carving your turns instead of smearing them, you'll want skis that are soft enough for you to bend into nice arcs when you get them up on edge, instead of remaining like 2 by 4's.

I used to own exactly the same skis, and found that not only was the sidecut radius much too large, something like 17 or 18 meters, if I recall, but they were way too stiff for effective SR carving, even at my massive 200+ lbs.

You look like you weigh a lot less than me , so when you are looking at new skis, don't get freaked out if they feel much softer than you are used to.

BTW, I like your stance width.

Good luck.

YOT

(Mods - I don't know if this is an equipment or technique post. Move it wherever you feel it belongs.)
post #43 of 46
It may just be the angle of the video, but your poles seem really long. If they are too long, it makes it difficult to keep your hands out in font of you. Looks like every time you go to plant you have to lift your hands and shoulders, resulting in even more vertical movement and a ineffecient weight shift, especially if you are planting too late on top of everything else. You may not be powering the ski early in your turn because your weight is still going up vertically, no way of powering until the weight is back down on your feet, resulting in that big push after the fall line once your weight is coming back down onto your feet. This is especially evident in the middle video. A shorter pole will make the plant more subtle and take a lot of the vertical motion out of your turns allowing you to keep your weight on your feet for a longer period throughout the turn.

Pretty easy (and inexpensive) fix to try. I used to be an instructor and also skied a ton of bumps; one of the first things I look for when a person's shoulders seem to be too high and open is pole length. Hey, don't even cut yours, borrow a shorter friend's poles for a few runs to see if it makes a difference. Seems too easy, will not solve all of you problems, but it should be a small help (or could be a big help)
post #44 of 46
Thread Starter 
hi youngoldtimer, and yes, i am a convert and am actively looking for SR carving skis.

as for the soft tip, it does't bother me in SR turns (old school sl skis were designed soft in, hard out, I believe), it bothers me when I'm actually trying to do GS turns and shortern the radius of the turn by pressuring edging it - yes it gives - giving a shorter (relatively) radius turn then the 17/18 natural arc, but in doing so, it loses its edge grip enough to be noticable on hard 'icy' surfaces'. Maybe what i'm feeling isn't so much a 'soft' tip as a lack of torsional rigidity. Regardless, I've noticed my skis start to make a *thwap* *thwap* sound at high speed / high pressure turns. Its a bit unnerving!

post #45 of 46
Thread Starter 
thanks for the fb hudsonhacker - i wish i could say my poles were too long (i love an easy fix) but that isn't the culprit (have my 90 degree elbow angle). Far more likely its that my hand position is just too high.

Its also interesting that you point out the vertical movement b/c i've been trying to get rid of it in my short radius - so clearly - still have some work to do! ( i need a longer season!)
post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahmskis View Post
Regardless, I've noticed my skis start to make a *thwap* *thwap* sound at high speed / high pressure turns. Its a bit unnerving!
I'll bet it is! That's not normal for those skis. I've had them occasionally chatter on ice, but *thwap'ing* does sound like they're too soft, and that's just not my experience with that model.

Do you have a sense if they might be well used? Do they still have a bit of camber? I'm wondering if they might have lost their longitudinal stiffness.

YOT
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