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iM88 Bindings: To Rail or not to rail???

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
I tried so hard not to bid... D**n you Ebay!!! Sick addiction, this gear buying, and there's so many amazing skis, and places, to fuel it!!! If only all of life's problems were this easy... I won a pair of '05/'06 164cm Monster 88s two night's ago and I've had a little bidder's remorse about it since. I really didn't think my last second bid at $235 would get the job done, but as it turned out, $233 was a winner + $20 shipping = $253 delivered!

Question 1: Here's why my bidder's remorse has emerged a bit(I know if there's someplace to get over that quickly, this is that place!) Did I get these too short at 164cm? I'm 5'6", fairly aggresive and an improving level 7, 140-145lbs... depending on how much I ate the night before, and will be pairing with Krypton Cross ID's(sidebar: I bought these a month ago. Reading so many boot posts with Phil gushing about Krypton's, resistance became futile! In case anyone is wondering, all his Krypton raves are right on! If you can fit in them, get them! If not, find a good bootfitter to get you in them and if that fails, find a better surgeon to alter your foot to get you in them!!!) I skied '04/'05 156cm iM75 Chip's w/railflex this season. I ski mostly East Coast and I've always been a much better groomed skier than trees/bumps(I had skis that were too long for me back in the day that were detrimental to my development in these arenas,) which was my rationale last yr for the iM75's in a shorter length, as opposed to 163's. I got significantly better in the bumps this year, but still have lots of work in the trees when the snow is deeper, again my rationale on shorter length in the iM88's, as opposed to 175's. Good thinking or did I sell myself "short" on either or both occasions?

Question 2: As the title says, to rail or not to rail? With the 75's, I was skiing with a posi-driver as I found I liked the rail binding in different positions for different conditions. They worked much better in the +15 position on groomed/hard stuff/steeps/bumps(although very heavy after a half-day in the bumps) and -15 in softer stuff/pow, however, I didn't really like the feeling of skiing the tails at -15 and if they were still at +15 and I darted off-piste after a good dump(we had a few of 'em this year in the East) searching for pow in the trees and didn't stop to move the binding back to -15, the tips just dove right down in anything over 12". Anyone else that skis/skied these have this experience or was it me(which is certainly possible)? As stated, I thought the iM75's, even in 156 were REALLY heavy skis. Are the 88s lighter? I never demoed and I know Ebay impulse buying is clearly not the way to go about buying skis, thus all of these questions/concerns after the fact. Would rail bindings make them too heavy? Do I need the same adjustability I felt I needed on the iM75s?

And if not rail bindings then what? Mojo 15's? Solly 912's or Z12's? Look PX 12's w/ or w/out lifter? Any others I've forgotten to drive me crazy in my search? Mount any of these forward/on the line/back? And as a mostly EC skier, when they need their 1st tune, 1:1, 2:1 or even 3:1?

Will I find too much overlap with the iM75's? With all I've read about the iM88, do I even need a ski in the low/mid 70s underfoot anymore? Would I be better served with something in the mid/high 60's, like RX8s, SuperShapes (EvanSilver: if you read this, I'm seriously thinking about your SuperShapes if I can sell my XBox 360 and/or 75's) or something in that mold, to go along with the 88s as a better EC 2 ski-quiver, which I've clearly now committed to? If so, what size should I target in any of those, 160 or 165? I enjoyed the iM75s, but certainly found some limitations and really didn't find them to be as fulfilling a one ski quiver as I'd hoped. I felt they gave up too much in too many places/conditions. Don't get me wrong, they were great all over if it wasn't too hard or too soft or too deep, but would the above mentioned couple of skis(or others) be just as good in similar, middle of the spectrum conditions(up to where the 88s would clearly take over) and even better on harder/icier days and in bumps?

OK... while I could keep going, this has turned into a mini-novella, so I'll end it here! Thanks to all for any feedback!
post #2 of 26
If you do put RF bindings on, spend some time to measure out the ski's sidecut center and figure out where your ball of foot (BOF) lies in relation to the midsole mark on your boots (search on BOF and look for threads/posts by Noodler). Actually, you should do this with any kind of binding. In general, you want to position the binding so that your BOF is over the sidecut center for groomed skiing. With RF, you can potentially play games to decide which position corresponds to that (you may want that at 0 or +1.5).

Do the same for your old skis and figure out where your BOF *was* in relation to the sidecut center at the various RF mounting points. This will help you understand and calibrate your tastes for ski feel. You have built up a good database of what you liked in the iM75 at the various positions, now you can use it to help the binding decision on the 88 and other skis.

I do think the 88 will be less of a sinker in powder, and less in need of a rearward binding mount than the 75 (if one were to look for an all-around binding position).

I am sure the 175cm 88 would have felt unwieldy to you in trees and bumps, given that it would be 3" over your head! So, considering your goals, 164cm was probably a good choice. It will be a fair step up from the iM75 in both length and width, so you should feel some nice float.

Hope this helps!
post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
If you do put RF bindings on, spend some time to measure out the ski's sidecut center and figure out where your ball of foot (BOF) lies in relation to the midsole mark on your boots (search on BOF and look for threads/posts by Noodler). Actually, you should do this with any kind of binding. In general, you want to position the binding so that your BOF is over the sidecut center for groomed skiing. With RF, you can potentially play games to decide which position corresponds to that (you may want that at 0 or +1.5).

Do the same for your old skis and figure out where your BOF *was* in relation to the sidecut center at the various RF mounting points. This will help you understand and calibrate your tastes for ski feel. You have built up a good database of what you liked in the iM75 at the various positions, now you can use it to help the binding decision on the 88 and other skis.

I do think the 88 will be less of a sinker in powder, and less in need of a rearward binding mount than the 75 (if one were to look for an all-around binding position).

I am sure the 175cm 88 would have felt unwieldy to you in trees and bumps, given that it would be 3" over your head! So, considering your goals, 164cm was probably a good choice. It will be a fair step up from the iM75 in both length and width, so you should feel some nice float.

Hope this helps!
Big time! Especially with any of that silly talk of bidder's remorse

Let me ask you this too... Midseason, I switched into smaller Krypton's(286 BSL) from Head FR 8.5s(295). Would the smaller bsl of the Krypton's and corresponding binding adjustment have changed where my BOF centering on the ski was? In other words, is it possible that it was more centered at +15 in the 8.5's, but at 0 in the Krypton's? Just trying to get a little better understanding of this, b/c unless I can sell the 75s for anything close to what I was hoping, they're still probably going to be my everyday ski, heavy or not!

Are the RF bindings considered heavy? As I do want more float out of the 88s, I want to keep them as light as possible. I had read Noodler's post a couple of months back when tinkering with the 75s and thought that figuring out BOF mounting would solve the issue of needing adjustability for the 88s.

Thx again!!!
post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post

And if not rail bindings then what? Mojo 15's? Solly 912's or Z12's? Look PX 12's w/ or w/out lifter? Any others I've forgotten to drive me crazy in my search? Mount any of these forward/on the line/back? And as a mostly EC skier, when they need their 1st tune, 1:1, 2:1 or even 3:1?

Um... Any of these bindings are good. You are over thinking. Just mount them on the line. Don't worry about mounting these at the BOF point. These are your off piste / soft snow skis, not carving skis.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
Um... Any of these bindings are good. You are over thinking. Just mount them on the line. Don't worry about mounting these at the BOF point. These are your off piste / soft snow skis, not carving skis.
I tend to overthink stuff like this my whole life... its a terrible affliction I've also resigned myself to the fact that my season is probably over, so I have nothing else to do but overthink now.

Off-piste/soft-snow at mid equaled more float based on my playing with iM75 bindings, so that does makes sense.

Two responses, two mounting suggestions.
Nice... more to overthink
post #6 of 26
i too have "over thought" the whole binding thing.

which is why I have a pair of bindings from each manufacturer on different skis.

i have Marker Piston 13's on my Mantras. HEAVY. No discernable difference between "ON" and "OFF" (they have a switch, which provides endless humor from my buddies).

i have Rossi Axial120Ti's on my Karmas. These bindings I like the least.

i have Solly S912's on my Spats. Nice feel to them.

i have Tyrolia Railflex 12's on my No Ka Ois. They seem fine.

i have Mojo 15's on my King Salmons. I REALLY like this set-up. They feel responsive and light.

I would say Solly S912's as you can get some of the 05/06 for a song.
I would also say Mojo 15's

I am still interested in trying the old Look P12/14 series and actually have a pair of the P12's laying around. Not sure how much different they are from the Rossi's though.

At any rate, you really can't go wrong with the Solly's or Mojos.
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
I tend to overthink stuff like this my whole life... its a terrible affliction
Your not the only one: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...binding+M OJO

Michael
post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post

Nice... thanks for that I think I remember reading that thread back when I was doing a little research about the railflex positions on my iM75's.

What did you wind up mounting? I take it you went midpt from your suggestion in the other thread? Carve plate or no? Were you happy? Do you still have the ski in your quiver? b/c I don't see it in your list anymore!
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
Big time! Especially with any of that silly talk of bidder's remorse

Let me ask you this too... Midseason, I switched into smaller Krypton's(286 BSL) from Head FR 8.5s(295). Would the smaller bsl of the Krypton's and corresponding binding adjustment have changed where my BOF centering on the ski was? In other words, is it possible that it was more centered at +15 in the 8.5's, but at 0 in the Krypton's?
Well, you couldn't have been different by more than 4.5mm at the most. Since the boot center stayed the same, the new boots would have moved your BOF forward. But in the range of 0 to 4.5mm, it would have been a small change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
Are the RF bindings considered heavy? As I do want more float out of the 88s, I want to keep them as light as possible. I had read Noodler's post a couple of months back when tinkering with the 75s and thought that figuring out BOF mounting would solve the issue of needing adjustability for the 88s.
I would not say they are super heavy, but they are heavier than the same non-railflex binding. There are fairly beefy metal guides for the heel and toe pieces, then the plastic plates themselves. I haven't ever weighed all this stuff, but I think the extra weight is noticeable on a really light ski. The iM88 is not that light however -- it's a fairly beefy ski. On my heavier skis, I don't notice the RF bulk at all.

The real issue with the RF bindings is that they add a lot of lift, and this is not always desirable for free-ride skis (most certainly not for free-style or park skis). For all mountain use, this is not such a big deal, but I do prefer flatter bindings in powder and bumps myself. It feels less clumsy to me when doing rotary turns and other non-carvy maneuvers.
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
Um... Any of these bindings are good. You are over thinking. Just mount them on the line. Don't worry about mounting these at the BOF point. These are your off piste / soft snow skis, not carving skis.
The line is OK for people with an average boot size (whatever that may be) but it's going to be off for small and large boot sizes. In fact, it could just as easily put someone too far forward (beyond BOF) if they had a large boot size, which would be really bad for soft snow / powder skis. I always double-check the line on all my skis nowadays.
post #11 of 26
Head skis with Railflex tend to be less lively (more dead) feeling than with the MOJO bindings. Considering that Head skis are already overly damp, for some skiers, binding selection can mean the difference between just-right and not-right.

If you use a Tyrolia plate with the MOJO system, you can reinstall the binding without re drilling: http://levelninesports.com/tyrolia-2...lver-p-80.html

Cheers,

Michael
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
Nice... thanks for that I think I remember reading that thread back when I was doing a little research about the railflex positions on my iM75's.

What did you wind up mounting? I take it you went midpt from your suggestion in the other thread? Carve plate or no? Were you happy? Do you still have the ski in your quiver? b/c I don't see it in your list anymore!
I sold the ski unmounted. I had a 175cm size and it was really too short for me, I'm 230 lbs. I found another 89mm wide ski in a 188cm, the Inspired by Nobis. I rotate skis pretty fast.

I've also been very happy with the Contact 11. Its my go-to ski for mixed snow conditions.

Michael
post #13 of 26
Well as to the length-pointless question as you own them now! But for a lighter east coaster the length will make tem a good and possibly great) all-mountain ski).

I use the mojo binding mounted center (factory line)-l keep them tuned to a 2:1 (Mine are 175cm-I'm 5'10, 165)---love the very lively-responsive feel.

For fat ski-these skis are very carvy and don't really need the extra edge power of a lifter style binding.

You'll really enjoy the 88's Great in everything but really firm, shark-tooth moguls (but then agaion, what is good in those?).

Oh-there will be no ver lap between these and you im 75's as they are superior in every way. Really.

Liam
post #14 of 26
Just another data point -

I have the IM88's (175) with the mojo 15 bindings mounted at the normal position. (Me: 5-10, 175 lbs).

This works great for me. It's a really light, agile feeling. Very direct. Very little between me and the ski. This is the way I wanted it. Works great in new powder and tracked-up stuff as well.

But I have never tested them head-to-head against a setup mounted a little fore or aft of the regular line...
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
I sold the ski unmounted. I had a 175cm size and it was really too short for me, I'm 230 lbs.
That's what I thought you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
I rotate skis pretty fast.
So many great skis these days with different feels there's really no reason not to! I've got to make it to an East demo day next season, I've never done that and I'd love the chance to feel one ski vs the other run to run as I have a much better idea of what I like and what I'd be looking for from a ski in different places.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrettscv View Post
Head skis with Railflex tend to be less lively (more dead) feeling than with the MOJO bindings. Considering that Head skis are already overly damp, for some skiers, binding selection can mean the difference between just-right and not-right.
I found the 75s kinda dead with the railflex and would like to avoid that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
I have the IM88's (175) with the mojo 15 bindings mounted at the normal position. (Me: 5-10, 175 lbs).

This works great for me. It's a really light, agile feeling. Very direct. Very little between me and the ski. This is the way I wanted it.
Me too... and I hope it works as well for me

I was also wondering about the Mojo 11, how much different than the 15? As I'm a lighter skier, I've bought one model down many times b/c I don't need a crazy high DIN setting, they're a ton cheaper too.
post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
Well as to the length-pointless question as you own them now!
True... but if the consensus had been, "They ski short, get the 175," or, "Too short for you," I probably would have relisted 'em as soon as they were in my possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
l keep them tuned to a 2:1 (Mine are 175cm-I'm 5'10, 165)---love the very lively-responsive feel.
Thx, no one else really addressed the tuning question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
For fat ski-these skis are very carvy and don't really need the extra edge power of a lifter style binding.

You'll really enjoy the 88's Great in everything but really firm, shark-tooth moguls (but then agaion, what is good in those?).

Oh-there will be no ver lap between these and you im 75's as they are superior in every way. Really.
I keep going back and forth on whether I'm going to keep the 75's or not. You think the 88 is better in every terrain, eh? Even in really hardpack? As I thought about what I wrote yesterday, I don't really know that I found a hard condition the 75 didn't do admirably well in, so I may have been a little unfair to them in that regard. I've obviously read of the 88s prowess on hardpack and I'm wondering if they'll totally take over the 75s job. I can't see having just one ski w/a waist of 88 in the East though and that's where I also wondered if something in the mid/high 60's would compliment them better, but I probably won't get to solve this until next season and who knows what'll come along btw now and then
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post

I keep going back and forth on whether I'm going to keep the 75's or not. You think the 88 is better in every terrain, eh? Even in really hardpack? As I thought about what I wrote yesterday, I don't really know that I found a hard condition the 75 didn't do admirably well in, so I may have been a little unfair to them in that regard. I've obviously read of the 88s prowess on hardpack and I'm wondering if they'll totally take over the 75s job. I can't see having just one ski w/a waist of 88 in the East though and that's where I also wondered if something in the mid/high 60's would compliment them better, but I probably won't get to solve this until next season and who knows what'll come along btw now and then
Don't get rid of the 75's unless you replace them with some SuperShapes (or SS Magnums).

I've skied practically every ski in the Head line and I love my 88's for soft snow, but they don't hold a candle to the narrower skis on hardpack. They are just slow to react compared to a high-60's underfoot ski.

Don't get me wrong, the 88 is a great ski and works quite well on hard snow FOR A FATTER SKI, but they don't respond like a narrower ski when you're laying them over from edge to edge.

Do you have any friends with the same boot size as you? If you do, try this experiment: make some turns on your new 88's (with the Mojos, by the way), then hop over to the 75's, then hop back. You'll know what I mean.

edited to add: 2 and 1
post #19 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Don't get rid of the 75's unless you replace them with some SuperShapes (or SS Magnums).

I've skied practically every ski in the Head line and I love my 88's for soft snow, but they don't hold a candle to the narrower skis on hardpack. They are just slow to react compared to a high-60's underfoot ski.

Don't get me wrong, the 88 is a great ski and works quite well on hard snow FOR A FATTER SKI, but they don't respond like a narrower ski when you're laying them over from edge to edge.

Do you have any friends with the same boot size as you? If you do, try this experiment: make some turns on your new 88's (with the Mojos, by the way), then hop over to the 75's, then hop back. You'll know what I mean.

edited to add: 2 and 1
Thanks much How do the SuperShapes and SS Magnums compare to the 75s weight wise? I think I'd like something a little lighter and livelier for an everyday ski. I don't think I knew that until I started reading epic posts though, if that makes sense. Reading others describe their experiences on different models/brands of skis has certainly helped me understand some things I feel, like, dislike, etc. in skis I've been on, kind of textbook like, but mostly its just made me want to try a whole pantheon of stuff

I'm in a 24.5 boot right now and have done a lot of alone, weekday skiing the last 3 seasons but I do one trip with a buddy each year to take his kids and do a lot of shorter runs with them where I could switch it up run to run, that should give me a good enough feel, again and sadly, probably not until next season.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
I was also wondering about the Mojo 11, how much different than the 15? As I'm a lighter skier, I've bought one model down many times b/c I don't need a crazy high DIN setting, they're a ton cheaper too.
The difference between the MOJO 11 and MOJO 15 is substantial and goes well beyond the DIN range provided. The MOJO 15 features the Tyrolia race toe binding. This is probably the most reliable and safe binding available and is substantially the same general design as the real Worldcup bindings offered by Tyrolia, but without the FreeFlex feature.

The MOJO 11 is a middle quality recreational binding. Clearly cheaper to produce.

Michael
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
Don't get rid of the 75's unless you replace them with some SuperShapes (or SS Magnums).

I've skied practically every ski in the Head line and I love my 88's for soft snow, but they don't hold a candle to the narrower skis on hardpack. They are just slow to react compared to a high-60's underfoot ski.

Don't get me wrong, the 88 is a great ski and works quite well on hard snow FOR A FATTER SKI, but they don't respond like a narrower ski when you're laying them over from edge to edge.
You know, it's nice to see a voice of reason here after so many debates about fat skis. Bob, you summed this up really well, thanks.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
You know, it's nice to see a voice of reason here after so many debates about fat skis. Bob, you summed this up really well, thanks.
You'll find that I'm in a significant minority here at Epic and I'm a hopeless relic when it comes to TGR.

Anyway, have fun on those skis and just remember:

Phat isn't all that!
post #23 of 26
i own the 175 88 with the Mojo 15 mounted right on the deck.

Now you all know i am a slalom race ski junkie and love my 162 B5's , but i gotta tell ya! The iM88 with the mojo is a fabulous setup and I cannot find the speed limit on this ski on or off piste.

Amazing edge hold for an 88mm ski and I find them quite nimble in all situations.

All y other skis have plates and I have 5mm risers on my boots I see no need for a plate and am compltely happy with the 88 /Mojo 15 setup!
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeSki View Post
True... but if the consensus had been, "They ski short, get the 175," or, "Too short for you," I probably would have relisted 'em as soon as they were in my possession.



Thx, no one else really addressed the tuning question



I keep going back and forth on whether I'm going to keep the 75's or not. You think the 88 is better in every terrain, eh? Even in really hardpack? As I thought about what I wrote yesterday, I don't really know that I found a hard condition the 75 didn't do admirably well in, so I may have been a little unfair to them in that regard. I've obviously read of the 88s prowess on hardpack and I'm wondering if they'll totally take over the 75s job. I can't see having just one ski w/a waist of 88 in the East though and that's where I also wondered if something in the mid/high 60's would compliment them better, but I probably won't get to solve this until next season and who knows what'll come along btw now and then
Listen, In addition to one 7 day western trip a year and a few days in Northern, VT the vast majority of my ski days are on a small southern New England (I mean massachusetts here) ski area. the im 88 is my 95% time ski.

I agree with Bob-the 88's don't respond as well on hard Pack as a head ski with a waist-line in the HIGH 60's (his quote)-Like the XRC's or the beloved Supershapes...BUT YOU"RE 75's (the ski in question) don't qualify! Two years ago I had the 75 on loan for about two weeks-fine swiss army knife ski---but not in the same league in terms of construction, performance, or technology as the more recent 88. The 88's are better carvers-hard too believe--but true. waist width doesn't tell the whole story-ask any metron owner. The 88 is livelier feeling than the 75 (imho) and more stable-an unusual combination. You know-what's the turn radius on a 163 cm 88--16-17m??? That's plenty tight for hard pack on any any mountain-couple that with the laminate race construction and you're going to find that ski very adept on hard snow. Is it in the same league as a Supershape or xrc 1200??..NO! But Up to the standards of a two year old im 75--heck, yeah!

My experience with the 88 is dead-on with Atomicman's


Now, I could see wanting a great hard snow carver to compliment the 88-like a slalom cut ski, but I'm sorry-the im 75 isn't that ski--the 75 was a great one-quiver east coast ski but i think you've seriously displaced it's envelope of use with the purchase of the im 88.
post #25 of 26
Liam brings up a good point, in that even a beefcake ski like the 88 *can* be quick turning and fun in a shorter length if that works for a particular skier. My conundrum is that I generally buy wider/fatter skis for all-around / soft snow performance, and that drives me to a 186cm iM88 for my height/weight. At that length, the 88 is not a fast turner on groomers despite the fact that it does fine on hard snow, holds an edge well, and will go faster than I can push it without issues. At least speaking for myself, a short 88 would not cut it in powder for me, even if it might be a fine choice on hard snow.
post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 

Thanks to all!

A big thanks to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions... I went w/the Mojo 15 mounted center line to center line and got 2 days in on them this past wknd at K'Mart and MRG(w/BarrettSCV) that I never expected I was going to get

They definitely took a little getting used to at KMart on Saturday, and I arguably should've skied on the 75s there but hey, I had new skis... of course I was going to ski them! Once I went into the woods w/them where there was plenty of fresh, deeper snow, I started to get more comfortable on them.

It was Sunday at MRG though that I really started hitting my groove on them and fell in love! Conditions were ideal on Sunday for these skis and I really got to put them through their paces. As I'd skied MRG w/my 75s a couple weeks ago, it was easy to realize how much I preferred the 88s there and my legs had a lot more in them for a longer time as they're clearly lighter.

They are more nimble than I expected for such a wide ski and once I got used to the longer turn radius, I really enjoyed the GS feel and also found them quicker than I expected edge to edge. All in all, as you all said, great skis and I can't wait to get on them again!

Thank again to all for helping w/this decision! I couldn't be happier w/the setup
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