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Offset stance boots - for everyone?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
We started touching on this topic in another thread I started before, but I though I'd start a new thread about this question.

I've read in other threads that offset stance boots are good for people whose knees track inward through flexion. Can such a path be caused by anything other than pronation? A varus wedge can often be used to solve these problems.

Also, it has been said that offset stance boots are good for people whose feet naturally point outwards. Isn't that most people? In that case, everyone would benefit from boots with an toe-out stace.

Could someone please clarify who these boots ARE and ARE NOT good for, and how they solve problems in comparison to other corrective measures, such as varus wedges and sole canting?
post #2 of 19
D(C)

Through much research and testing, I have found that about 85% of the population has a problem with abduction at the foot. When you place your foot into a ski boot with excessive forward lean, the abduction force increases. (also increases when the ankle joint is at maximum range of motion/maximum dorsilflexion). I feel that the abductive boots(Nordica
Agressor/Fischer models) do address these stance/biomechanic issues, but more changes need to be made in respect to boot forward lean angles in my opinion.
post #3 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
Isn't that most people?
Except for the pigeon-footed ones.
post #4 of 19
Are we talking about Fischer's SOMA boots? They seem like a good idea.

Guess it depends on the person?
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by D(C) View Post
Can such a path be caused by anything other than pronation?
My knees track inward dramatically, and I supinate. This really confused my previous bootfitter. So the answer, at least for this one person, is yes.
post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by D(C) View Post

Also, it has been said that offset stance boots are good for people whose feet naturally point outwards. Isn't that most people? In that case, everyone would benefit from boots with an toe-out stace.

Could someone please clarify who these boots ARE and ARE NOT good for, and how they solve problems in comparison to other corrective measures, such as varus wedges and sole canting?
What started out as a biomechanically advantageous stance for almost everyone has changed. People realized that this kind of boots gives a quicker turn initiation. Great for SL-racing.
Another realisation was that, with modern technique (actually any technique with dynamic components), your stance is changing constantly so the biomechanical advantage is, practically, never reached.
Except for during re-centering but then the forces arent big enough to require any help of that kind.

-peace, snow, wind...

/r
post #7 of 19

Soma Works!!!! Period!!!!

let me start by saying i am not a diehard fan of any particular brand, but SOMA WORKS!!!! PERIOD!!!! it's long over due. it's for everyone, not just pigeon toe'd, duck toe'd or even the twinkle toe'd! it puts the strongest part of your foot in control of the ski. stand up on the floor, look at your feet and your toes will point slightly out. make your feet exactly parallel, bend z knees and it will feel unnatural with poor balance and knee strain + a slight push will put you over where as toes out, knees bent gives your stance strength,w/no knee strain. sit down and look at your foot again, notice the large thick bone(girls, don't too get excited!) that leads to your big toe. flex your foot. notice how the ball of your foot feels by far the strongest part, hence the SOMA advantage! this is by far the strength of your foot and the part that we use to balance ourselves. stand up and rise up on your " toes ". you'll see it's the ball of your foot that supports you. one example to illustrate, one that we've all had happen to us: suddenly skiing into wet snow from a snow gun tosses the body forward, sometimes crashing. with SOMA boots on, you feel the skis slow down, BUT YOU DO NOT GET TOSSED FORWARD! you don't get that quick OMG!, crap-in-the-pants feeling. you do not lose balance- it is in fact a non-event! it's an "ah, so what!" moment while others around you struggle or crash! cool, huh? most people(especially girls) hate wet guns....SOMA cures that(ok girls, NOW get excited!). my legs are far less tired at days end, my knees are not strained and i'm as cocky as a banshee rooster. all this talk of shimming boots, shaving soles, wedging, foaming, tweak this, tweak that...yada, yada, yada......ENOUGH!!! all this indicates peoples' desire for better balance, more control of the ski by the foot, for correction of a " it's just not quite right feeling " of the ski/boot/stance. SOMA solves that!!! finally it will feel as natural as walking!!! atlast, the way it should be! you'll never feel like the tips might cross each other. also, it is soooooo easy to apply extra pressure to either the uphill or downhill ski tip.

SOMA is an idea that all manufactures should adopt like they all adopted shaped skis.

GIVE US SOMA!!!!

SOMA.... as natural as walking!

FISCHER MX9 SOMA FIT BOOTS, FISCHER RX* 8 skis.

* RX stands for ROCKETS
post #8 of 19
A quick note to "Soma" fans. The idea was experimented by DALE Boots and perfected by Atomic years ago. Not news, still a great idea. Think 3D. I will comment in more detail when I have a sec.

Chow!
post #9 of 19
Many boots are slightly abducted. Certain Atomic, Fischer and Nordica models have more abduction built in. Fischer differs from the others in that the pivot point of abduction is at the tibial axis rather than the center of the heel like Atomic et. al. Fischer's top line race boots have the most abduction. I'm not familiar with how the Daleboot abducted stance was designed.

Many who are familiar with the boot believe that the SOMA concept is both different and a more advanced design than the heel based abduction approach. Some think the boots are too responsive. Fischer has reduced the amount of abduction in its non-top of-the line race models but retains the tibial axis pivot point.
post #10 of 19
Does anyone know the protocol that fischer uses to determing the appropriate angle for their elite racers? As you may know their race boots come with a wider than DIN spec sole that can be custom routered to suite the individual racer, but I wonder how the company determines that angle????

bud
post #11 of 19
Are you speaking of SOMAtech?
I don't think anyone would know how they got that angle, but my guess is they tested a large number of people, made them stance in their most normal position and then they measured. Then they probably made the angle a little smaller than what their result was. But that's just my guess They could have had fun with some phi?
post #12 of 19

phi?

[quote= But that's just my guess They could have had fun with some phi? [/quote]

don't know. i have fun with cake....Gary Fisher Cake that is. and i certainly enjoy the 'ol lady's Taco!!!
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Does anyone know the protocol that fischer uses to determing the appropriate angle for their elite racers? As you may know their race boots come with a wider than DIN spec sole that can be custom routered to suite the individual racer, but I wonder how the company determines that angle????

bud
Bud,
You function at a level far above me. However, Gerhard Reiter is a key boot engineer with Fischer. Maybe you can go to Fischer's International site and send an inquiry to his attention.
post #14 of 19
For anyone interested.... I have been measuring abduction/adduction for two years now. The device I use can measure many different positions of boot fore/aft positioning. My design and use of this device (patent pending) has given me the tools to understanding motion control (deceleration) of the abductive/adductive forces present and how they interact with "other" motions of ski boot mechanics.
post #15 of 19
Cantman,

This sounds very interesting and I for one would love to learn more and see how it works and your methodolgy for determing adjustments! Do you have any video you could post?

I love exploring new theories like yours and Mosh's.

bud
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Does anyone know the protocol that fischer uses to determing the appropriate angle for their elite racers? As you may know their race boots come with a wider than DIN spec sole that can be custom routered to suite the individual racer, but I wonder how the company determines that angle????

bud
they try a 3,6,9,12 deg off set for the racers and see what works best for them
post #17 of 19
Well, you can also mount the bindings duck on wider skis, here is an earlier thread:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=47902
post #18 of 19
cantman

I thought I remembered more of your posts in this thread?

Do your methods also apply to frame offsets on inline skates?
post #19 of 19
comprex...The abduction/adduction measurements will apply to any foreward/backward propulsive biomechanic motion. Frame offsets on in line skates would also change abductive/adductive alignment. This symmetry in the "transverse" plane can be aligned (corrected) to the individual.
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