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Video request, GOOD short Rad turns

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
BushwackerinPA, myself and a few others have posted MA videos recently and there has been a concensus suggestion on reduction of the 'up and pivot' move and edge initiation/ speed control above the fall line. While I understand the mechanics of this and worked on in a bit (until the season ended here a few days ago), It would help GREATLY if anyone has a video or a link showing what the 'desired' effect of reducing the 'up and pivot' would result in.
post #2 of 26
A lot of the video (Reilly's for instance) show very GOOD Short radius turns. you have to be aware that a lot of the talk of "less up and pivot" movements would make these turns better but they are very good turns. Even at the highest levels of skiing, those enlightened skiers are always looking for even the smallest adjustments and fixes to get even better.
post #3 of 26
Are you looking for a slalom-type carved turn or more of freeride turn that could be executed in a variety of conditions?
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Helluvaskier:

I want Slalom/ SR.

The longer radius cross-over turns, I can crank out a few every now and then (consistency is next) and I know they're happening w/out an 'up' by the way they feel.

Dchan, I looked at Reiley, he's good! My problem arises (I have a thread with MA I posted a few weeks ago look it up if you want) with a pretty big 'up' as I lengthen not collapse my new inside leg at transition aka.somewhat the same problem these folks have but to a larger magnitude to put it lightly; thanks for the suggestion
post #5 of 26
I think you will run into a discrepancy between what PSIA considers a short radius turn and what a slalom turn is. The link/thread below is my MA request that I posted a few days ago. There are slalom carve clips that might be worth a look for you. These turns however, represent very little rotary (if any in some cases), versus a PSIA-style SR turn where a lot of rotary is often incorporated into the bottom and top of the turn. A SR turn as they are demonstrated and presented in some of the links here and a SR Slalom Carve are very different turns with different goals in mind. For one, slalom turns are relagated mainly to groomers... However, just because there is rotary employed in the typical SR turn does not mean that there should also be an up move inherrent in the transition for the purpose of the edge change. Usually, such a move is a result of other issues with the skiing that are forcing an up movement to be the only means of releasing the edges from the turn.

The turns are not perfect by any means, but they might be a good starting point for you...
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...18&postcount=1

Later

GREG
post #6 of 26
post #7 of 26
I know there is some decent video of short turns taken at the ESA. Hopefully the ESA video will get posted soon and then I can point you to my version of short turns. I was in fact trying to avoid gross up movements when they took the video.
post #8 of 26

Imho

Here, unrelesed footage from 2006:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=5FBBB1C2

You need something to initiate the turn and if you are not carving simply tipping your skis onto new edges will not produce a desired SR turn. One way is to extend your leggs in old school up unweighting style and wait for your skis to get unweighted as your up movement stops as you reach maximum extention. Usually this is not very useful in short radius turns as there is not much time but that all depends on how quick you are or want to be. The other option is to use ski rebound from previous turn to lift you up but absorb the up movement with your feet so that your head stays horisontally on more or less the same level. This would be down-unweighting. A combination of both is also possible producing less up and down movement. In powder that is usefull.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
....These turns however, represent very little rotary (if any in some cases), versus a PSIA-style SR turn where a lot of rotary is often incorporated into the bottom and top of the turn.
Nice skiing Greg, like allways. Could you explain a bit how this rotary works and why it is missing from your skiing. IMO pointing of the knees is something you base your skiing on and some call that femure rotation. Any thaughts?
post #10 of 26
Tdk6, when comparing your SR turns to the slalom turns I was skiing, the first thing to note is the fact that yours (like most others) are skidded, whereas mine are arced/carved cleanly. You are right that I do employ pivot entry turns, but that is a feature of my skiing that few casual observers ever pick up on - mainly because my skis are very rarely, if ever, displaced sideways in SL turns. In the SR turns that you are demoing in your clip, you are turning the ski, versus using the ski to turn you. Other SR clips will show the same thing - that the skis are steered during all or some significant part of the turn as a means of tightening the turn. The difference between the rotary in my turns and the rotary displayed in others' turns would be what some call the difference between active and passive rotary... [I think - not sure as I am not versed in everyone's various jargon that they prefer]
Later
GREG
post #11 of 26
Helluva - I was only trying to demo short skidded turns where my body up down movement would be limited and my leggs would swing back and forth. They were not ment to be carved like yours are. But eather carved or skidded, no up down movement nesessary.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Helluva - I was only trying to demo short skidded turns where my body up down movement would be limited and my leggs would swing back and forth. They were not ment to be carved like yours are. But eather carved or skidded, no up down movement nesessary.
Understood. That fact however, is why I asked about what kind of SR turns were were talking about since there is a vast difference between the turns you were making and the turns I was making - even though both are considered SR turns - some of the movements required to execute them are vastly different.

Later

GREG
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
These are nice turns--is it you, MilesB??

Anyway-good example of no up move, fluid smooth and relaxed SR turns-very, very quiet upper Body and hands-I like it--my kind of turns.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
These are nice turns--is it you, MilesB??

Anyway-good example of no up move, fluid smooth and relaxed SR turns-very, very quiet upper Body and hands-I like it--my kind of turns.
Very good skiing indeed. It looks like pmts technique. Note that the turns are carved and initiated by flexing of outside leg causing tipping and resulting in edge change.
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
These are nice turns--is it you, MilesB??

Anyway-good example of no up move, fluid smooth and relaxed SR turns-very, very quiet upper Body and hands-I like it--my kind of turns.
Not me, just some intermediate skier.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
Tdk6 and helluvaskier: what I'm striving for is something in between the two somewhat extreme examples of short radius that you both have posted...a little bit of skidding but also carving (skarving is the term I think). The extension and flexion (of outside ankle and inside ankle respectively) combined with an active absorption of the loaded skis carrying into the next turn. I think Reiley, as Dchan suggested does this nicely and in a very non static form. (as an aside, I think the liveliness is the aussie style; we had an Aussie CSIA L4 train us this season and his short radius turns were just as lively yet perfectly executed). Tdk6 from what I observed had more directional change before the fall line (more pivoting) vs. the other examples I have seen.

What my goal is with this thread (and I apologize, I should have specified in the opening post) is to get something PSIA acceptable. Now before you [PSIA haters] jump on me, Im looking at my L2 next season and some MA and visualization would help me tons...

(My MA might be wayy off here but I'm trying to also express in words what I see as practice for the L2 MA teaching)

oh and while skiing short radius, the turns (for me) always look wayy shorter on tape than what you are feeling while skiing them...
post #17 of 26
You know who it is right Miles?
post #18 of 26
makwendo99,
Since your goal is PSIA-style turns with the aspirations of going for your L2 - I would study the recent turns my Reilly and Bushwacker.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...20238837886455
the above turns by Bushwacker are probably a good and realistic reference for you - despite the present up movement. Judging from how certain D-Teamers are making their SR turns, you aren't going to be penalized for a slightly pronounced up movement - at least not for a L2. What you will notice about both Reilly and Bushwacker's turns is they are much more dynamic than the video that you posted. I think that focusing on a separation of your upper and lower body - and allowing your lower body to generate higher angles without your upper body following those angles - is a good place for you to start.

I have also found in my personal skiing that the slalom turns are much more difficult to make than a scarved SR turn - but by working on the former, allows you to perform the latter much more easily, and at a higher level... I do not know if this is encouraged in all circles though.

Later

GREG
post #19 of 26
No, who is it?
post #20 of 26
PSIA-RM has a very good DVD that has what you're looking for. It's $15.00 if you can swing it, well worth the money. PSIA-E is supposed to be coming out with a new one soon I hear.
post #21 of 26
Just to put it out there... why is the up move such a bad thing? in many countries (australia, Austria, Italy) there is still a big up move tought... the difference between dynamic and basic (in a carved turn) is in dynamic there is edge before steer (if there is steering ie, pure carved as apposed to carved) and in basic there is steer to and edge... when you look at my video its edge to steer (carved, and the first set are pure carved)...

I think that doing a dynamic short turn "properly" is much harder to do than a SL turn...

Mind you having done alot of certification a retraction short turn is something that i have had to demo and can do but for me unless your in a slalom course and you need to get from one side to another really quick or are in bumps then it can become an unstable move and puts you in a bad possition.... having a certain amount of up to stay in a stronger possition is needed... both are required in racing... an up and over is more stable and utalizes skeletal structure...
post #22 of 26
The worst side effect of the up-move is that it encourages a pivot entry into the next turn. Many skiers rely heavily on this un-weighting motion to twist their skis into the new turn.

Having said that, I tend to agree that the up-move does not have to result in a pivot entry and does not require a big effort (unless you jump up). I think any top skier should be able to demonstrate both styles and use both as they see fit.
post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
The worst side effect of the up-move is that it encourages a pivot entry into the next turn. Many skiers rely heavily on this un-weighting motion to twist their skis into the new turn.
Actually, a pivot entry turn, when done properly is a very high level skill that requires considerable skill to execute properly - espcially when referencing a turn that finishes with a clean carve versus a skidded out mess. Interestingly, in the PSIA-type turn we are discussing here - ALL of the turns are initiated with strong rotary - considerably more than I would classify as a mere 'pivot' entry - and none of the PSIA turns are finished with a clean carve. The up-move that we are constantly seeing is more than likely a function of the turn that is being made (since the skier MUST steer considerably into the turn), especially when you take into consideration the effects that stance width and type of leg separation being employed may have on the execution of the turn. The higher level skill I would say is to be able to perform such a turn without a strong up move (unweighting and steering into the turn). Remember, the same pivot entry movement is often performed using a cross-under transition technique (inherrent in that kind of transition) - so it is not a skill limited only to a strong, or even moderate cross over. As stated above, most skiers have difficulty with the transition that does not involve the up-move.

Later

GREG
post #24 of 26
Could not agree more with everything you said HeluvaSkier. Well explained too, thanks.
post #25 of 26
Im just saying that an cross over is a more stable way to ski than a cross under... in racing they teach an up and over... they also teach a restraction turn but if you need stablitly then a retraction move is the last thing that you want to do... its fast, and used in slalom alot, but you dont have as many forces in SL as you do in GS... have a look at this training--- http://youcanski.com/video/guay_fr1.wmv --- up and over... for me i teach an up and over because for just the average skier who wants to do a short turn they dont get as tired as fast becuase they are relying on their structure, also for upper level skiers too (untill they start getting the rebound out of the ski then i teach them to use that into the next turn), when i coach i teach both but doing retraction turns all over the hill is tiring...

In PSIA they dont really talk about an up and over... more in the countries that i mentioned earlier... so those cross over short turns are not exactly PSIA...

also a dynamic short turn is a steered turn but its carved, (not arced/pure carved)... and its also a turn that you can do on practically every ski (straight, shaped, stiff soft)... a modern SL turn you can only really do on SL ski...

the pivot entry turn that you are talking about in GS is a very high end move but its totally different to what you need in a short turn...
post #26 of 26
FYI my video was done on Volkl Gotamas(183cm long 105mm waist 32 meter sidecut twin tip), IMO the up move was a unavoidable necessity if I wanted any sort of energy from that particalur ski. Also as Helvaskier alluded to, those are more freeridy turns that work better in soft snow conditions than a SR turn with no up move. I ski exposed areas alot and would want to catch a edge because I didnt unweight the skis.

those turns despite the fat skis would pass that section of the Level 2 exam , they are much better than how i was skiing December of 05 when I took the skiing potion of the Level 2 Exam test.

I am getting my 162 metrons fixed and also have my 179 Public enemies and am going to go out and do some demo skiing on those skis to see what that looks like.
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