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# Beginner Glossary ideas and requests - Page 4

Some things are best just drawn in the snow for situational use. Otherwise how about the point in the turn that is farthest from the "center point" of a given turn.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost I agree! How about the point where the turn radius is smallest?
Excellent definition, but it might lead beginners to believe it is desirable to tighten the radius of their turns at some critical point, and could lead to Z turns. As we generally strive for round turns, the idea of "apex" might not be of value to beginners. Let's define it as the point where the tangent to the curve is parallel to a line from the beginning to the end of a turn. This makes the turn sound less "pointy".
Quote:
 Originally Posted by RicB Some things are best just drawn in the snow for situational use. Otherwise how about the point in the turn that is farthest from the "center point" of a given turn.
Then you need a definition of "center point" in the glossary too. Good luck on that one.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by telerod15 Then you need a definition of "center point" in the glossary too. Good luck on that one.
Like I said, some things need pictures.
For a beginning lesson, and for practical purposes, it's the belly of the turn.
Dchan, I would tend to agree. Even though the apex is more (less really) than simply the belly of a turn, a beginner should not have to grapple with this concept.
The belly of the turn has the right implications, where your turning the most, without encouraging z turns. For the calculus students we can add where the 2nd derivative attains a maximum. For the physics students, the part of the turn with the most acceleration, and to keep the jerk low to avoid z turns.
I hope this may help with the definition of "Fall-Line" --- I've heard the fall-line referred to as "The Gravity Line". This makes more sense to me!!

~Snowmiser~
Fall line = the way down.
I think we agree on one thing about apex, it is out of the beginner glossery and I also think we are getting on the same page with any terminology and definitions used in the glossery. Progress!!??

RW
Throw out apex, and you lose the ability to speak about parts "before and after" the apex.

Why throw it out? Because no one can agree on a definition that is useful to teach beginner turns I guess.

There seems to be two camps, those that want to create a general definition and those that want to create a definition to suit the task at hand - ie, teaching a beginner a round turn.

The general definition is of no value to the beginner, and really of no value to anyone. A definition that involves first and second derivatives is of no value in ski instruction.

The simplest definition of all for apex that is suitable for a beginner would be:

The point halfway through a turn.

That way all that is left to argue about is the shape of turn. Which for a beginner is ROUND. Of course that is until some instructional genius points out that there are always deviations from that ideal, or that the ideal can never be obtained, so that's wrong too.....
Why not tell a beginner at the start of the turn they are going straight, they gradually increase the amount of turning as they enter the turn, and then gradually decrease the amount of turning as they exit the turn. The point between gradually increasing and gradually decreasing is the apex?
Because it's too complicated.
How about the beginning of the end of the turn. (or if not the beginning of the end, pehaps the end of the beginning )
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE Throw out apex, and you lose the ability to speak about parts "before and after" the apex...
"Before and after" the fall line?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE The point halfway through a turn.
Vague, but sufficient info for when they encounter the term in one of the instructional threads. Let's go with that.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ghost Why not tell a beginner at the start of the turn they are going straight, they gradually increase the amount of turning as they enter the turn, and then gradually decrease the amount of turning as they exit the turn...
Because that is exactly what we are trying to get them not to do.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by telerod15 "Before and after" the fall line?
Yes. If you think about the two halves as Neutral to fall-line and fall-line to neutral. In some cases, apex is not needed but it is in others....

Quote:
 Originally Posted by telerod Vague, but sufficient info for when they encounter the term in one of the instructional threads. Let's go with that.
What I have actually said to students is:

When you get half-way through the turn, your skis will be pointing straight downhill, right?. That's the apex. I want your outside leg to be fully extended at the apex. So think "extended at apex". Let's try it and see what you think! Remember: 'Extended at apex'!

It makes for a short mantra, that also works when 'apex' is made more general.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE What I have actually said to students is: When you get half-way through the turn, your skis will be pointing straight downhill, right?. That's the apex. I want your outside leg to be fully extended at the apex. So think "extended at apex". Let's try it and see what you think! Remember: 'Extended at apex'! It makes for a short mantra, that also works when 'apex' is made more general.
The apex is not entirely specific and this explanation is exactly what I would tell my beginning students to help them to begin to understand flexion and extension and where and how much to use each. The definition of apex just finds its own niche in this excellent explanation.
I would add this to the extension and flexion definition and let the apex go unlabeled and self defined.

Take Nolos' definition of flexion and extension and add this short explanation of the practical application of extension and we can answer flexion and extension questions in the general beginner zone threads
I use the concept of "APEX" when working with beginner students and find it very useful,,, in fact often essential. But I agree with those who suggested it be thrown out of the beginner vocabulary in the sense that if instructors don't understand the concept themselves they definitely should not use the term with their student.
Throw out any word that takes protracted argument to agree on a definition--that's your litmus test for bad beginner vocab.

Define belly of the turn instead. Few will dispute that definition. Then provide apex as a synonym.

Snowmiser, line of gravity or fast line is a great synonym, something a beginner should grasp readily from the experience of sidestepping contrasted with straight running. Certainly one of the core concepts that arises immediately in skiing.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nolo Define belly of the turn instead. Few will dispute that definition. Then provide apex as a synonym.
But nolo, the belly of the turn is an arc, and the apex is a point.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BigE But nolo, the belly of the turn is an arc, and the apex is a point.
I would say for a beginner that's just trying to figure out how to go the other way without falling over, That's close enough..

DC
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dchan I would say for a beginner that's just trying to figure out how to go the other way without falling over, That's close enough.. DC
And the slopes are littered with "close enoughs"
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 Originally Posted by Rick And the slopes are littered with "close enoughs"
Too true.

### The glossary thing...

...has already been done. See Skiing for Dummies, where the first sentence is "Skiing is a lot like bowling."

http://www.amazon.com/Skiing-Dummies...5615482&sr=1-1
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
I would say for a beginner that's just trying to figure out how to go the other way without falling over, That's close enough..

DC

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick And the slopes are littered with "close enoughs"
C'mon guys, I gotta call BS.

Do any of you think it's all that terribly important if a beginning skier (or rider) knows what the apex of the turn really means?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) C'mon guys, I gotta call BS. Do any of you think it's all that terribly important if a beginning skier (or rider) knows what the apex of the turn really means?
Not once in twelve seasons as an instructor has the term "apex" come up in a never ever or beginning skier lesson. An arc drawn in the snow with a ski pole should suffice to point out the beginning, middle, end or any other part of a turn with much greater clairity than a word none of us can agree on a meaning for.

Just my opinion.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BillA Not once in twelve seasons as an instructor has the term "apex" come up in a never ever or beginning skier lesson. An arc drawn in the snow with a ski pole should suffice to point out the beginning, middle, end or any other part of a turn with much greater clairity than a word none of us can agree on a meaning for. Just my opinion.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) C'mon guys, I gotta call BS. Do any of you think it's all that terribly important if a beginning skier (or rider) knows what the apex of the turn really means?
Apparently you didn't read my post above. I already said I consider it an important terminology tool. Now if a question is presented properly one might find out why.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick Apparently you didn't read my post above. I already said I consider it an important terminology tool. Now if a question is presented properly one might find out why.

You're right, I was reacting to your "littered with close enough" comment, not the post below:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick I use the concept of "APEX" when working with beginner students and find it very useful,,, in fact often essential. But I agree with those who suggested it be thrown out of the beginner vocabulary in the sense that if instructors don't understand the concept themselves they definitely should not use the term with their student.
could you explain how you use the concept of "apex" with beginner students?
(Serious request.)
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