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Beginner Glossary ideas and requests - Page 5

post #121 of 140
Thread Starter 
Wouldn't we use Apex , with a ski pole drawing, to help them understand extension and flexion ? This concept is confusing to a newer skier and diagrams , a booted walk thru description with demos would help them understand where and how much each movement is required at certain points of the turn.

I see it having a place in a beginners vocabulary but since the definition is too vague or subject to many variables it won't find it's way into the glossary but this discussion will help many.
post #122 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post
You're right, I was reacting to your "littered with close enough" comment, not the post below:



could you explain how you use the concept of "apex" with beginner students?
(Serious request.)
Despite the confusion and display of differing understandings of the meaning of the term "APEX" (as it relates to a ski turn) that has been displayed in this thread, the concept is really quite simple.

The APEX is the single middle point of a turn. It's the point at which half of the total direction change of a turn has been completed. If a straight line was drawn from the point a turn starts, to the point that turn ends, the APEX would be the point along the turn furthest from the drawn line. Typically, in the type of turns most people make most of the time, the APEX is reached when the skis are pointing down the "FALLINE" (another term some probably believe too confusing for beginners).

There are a couple good reasons for new and lower skilled skiers who are trying to advance their skill base to learn the concept of APEX. Take a look around any public ski slope. 97 percent of skiers rush the top of their turns in an effort to get to and through the falline as quickly as possible. Their turn initiations are composed of a big rotary tail toss, in which the APEX (falline) is reached almost immediately, followed by a more drawn out speed checking bottom of the turn.

The first step for most of these skill deficient skiers, if they ever hope to move past this pesky technical plateau, is to gain an understanding of turn shape. By gaining an awareness of the top and bottom portions of a turn, separated by a point called an APEX, they can begin to focus on being more patient during the top portion of the turn, making the direction change that takes place there more progressive, and more symmetrical to that taking place in the bottom portion of the turn.

Lower skilled skiers I work with quickly come to understand this concept of turn shape via this methodology,,, they quickly clean up their turn shape,,, and they then readily recognize the tail tossing being executed by the majority of other skiers on the slope. They're even astounded and disgusted when they see it being done by instructors.

The other use of the concept is in executing basic drills. Many of the drills I use call for a variance of task to take place during the process of executing a single turn. The APEX serves as a useful point at which to make the change. These drills are low skill level orientated, and the new skier/learner needs to understand the concept of APEX to execute them properly. That understanding will continue to serve them later as the degree of difficulty in the drills introduced is amped up.
post #123 of 140
Rick,

I agree with your definition of apex and can see where it is usefull to explain the middle part of the turn as a diagnostic tool. First time beginners usually don't have a problem with turn shape, but is is the little higher level skier that hasn't kept up with instruction that starts to bi-pass the fall line as they explore steeper terrain.

I think we need to create a criteria for what we define beginner skiers for the "beginner zone" forum. Is it first and second time skiers? Is it first year skiers? Is it a beginner who skis once every year? Is it someone who starts as a beginner and has caught the "ski fever", and is aspiring to become a much better skier? Is it all of above? Is it level 1 through 5?

Anyones thoughts on this?

RW
post #124 of 140
This is a good thread, perhaps not so much for 'on snow' discussion where these ideas are often more easily demo'd or drawn in the snow, but for this forum (and ski books etc), all of which have only clearly defined and agreed 'concepts' by which to successfully communicate.

As others have pointed out, it is clear here that some of the uses of these terms here appear contradictory (and yet I expect these guys can actually explain themselves on the hill very adequately). So yes, a Bears' Glossary would be a useful reference to assist these discussions.

FALL LINE. anyone with a grasp of 'gravity' and 'slope' can grasp this, but in our context it is a DIRECTION and not a POINT. In a completed S turn it is experienced twice when the skis are pointing down the fall line at the left and right extremities of the turn. So it occurs where some claim the 'APEX' is. Actually, I feel this is quite confusing as surely the TOP or APEX of the turn is the beginning, the middle and the end of the S shape where each seperate turn ends and another begins? If not 'apex' that crossover point needs a name.

Confusingly, because it is not unusual to assume skiing is downhill, it is easy to let the FALL LINE become that centerline down the middle of the S, which is actually crossed with skis often approaching 90 deg to the fall line (quite the opposite to skis being 'in the fall line').

Maybe this confusion is a reflection of modern technique where max extension and therefore arguably the TOP or APEX is at the extremities of the turns, whereas earlier unweighting techniques would have had max extension at the crossover, midpoint of the turns, where left turns to right, etc.

Certainly this crossover midpoint deserves a name as it is arguably the only definable point in the entire sequence (don't comma rather than round turns make the extremity or modern 'apex' a movable feast?

Just my 4 pence worth ($1.97=£1).
post #125 of 140
No. Apex is the middle of turn, not the top of the turn. I think the term apex as applied to turns comes from motorsports. Certainly a term that is more likely to be understood by new skiers than fall line, which is not used outside of skiing.

We'll call the top of the turn the "transition" I assume.

When we are done with "apex" maybe define or discuss inclusion of terms "transition" and "initiation".
post #126 of 140
Wow - five pages with 125 posts and we're still in the 'A's. This will be a long thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daslider
Confusingly, because it is not unusual to assume skiing is downhill, it is easy to let the FALL LINE become that centerline down the middle of the S, which is actually crossed with skis often approaching 90 deg to the fall line (quite the opposite to skis being 'in the fall line').
This is interesting... come to think of it, I'm now liking a new set of terms:

From now on I'm going to use Aphelion to describe the point where the skier is farthest from this new Fall-line and Perihelion to describe when they cross the Fall-line. By using terms totally new to the Skiing Context, I get to define them in perpetuity, right?

I can hear me with a beginner now: "Dude, yer rad dorsiflexed at aphelion 'an jus soppin plantarflexed at perihelion, so it's depleting yer available newtons!"

.ma

PS: (no offense daslider - everyone I know refers to 'skiing in the fall line' exactly as you described it!)
post #127 of 140
When I said "in the fall line", I meant skis pointed downhill, not crossing the fall line. Maybe leave apex AND fall line out of this glossary. Just say "when your skis are pointed downhill" and "halfway through the turn."

Terminology does seem to get in the way of understanding, although I'm beginning to understand "apex". We always say there are as many fall lines as there are places on the mountain. Every spot has it's own fall line. This distinction needlessly complicates the concept for most, but there is always someone who thinks skiing fall line means going across the hill?! No, I realize my words weren't clear. "In the fall line" should be "Skis pointed downhill" or "Skis pointed down the fall line."

Maybe we don't need fall line. Seriously. It's bogus. It means downhill. Downhill is understandable. No one will think downhill means crossing the downhill direction. K.I.S.S.
post #128 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
From now on I'm going to use Aphelion to describe the point where the skier is farthest from this new Fall-line and Perihelion to describe when they cross the Fall-line.
Dude! What if it's cloudy? How can you tell when your closer to the sun then?

Apex is a very much used term in motorsports. Take any motorcycle or car race driving course and you will find it used very frequently. Maybe we can steal a simple definition from a car racing forum?
post #129 of 140
How about 'Overall Fall Line' or 'General Fall Line' meaning downhill. ;p

I think Fall Line as 'Where a ball would roll' is a fine explanation. Works for adults and children alike. I get adults asking 'Why am I still sliding when I'm across the hill?' It's generally due to the fall line not being directly down the hill. I let them know that since it's sloping this way and this way, you need to point your skis this way and tell them why. Kids and adults alike will usually quickly learn that directly 'Across' the hill never works... it always needs a little tweaking.

For a beginner glossary, you need to keep it as simple as possible... Apex is useless... I've NEVER used that word in my life.. let alone during a beginner ski lesson. Definitely not needed here...

Personally, I think the most basic definition possible is good for a beginner, then as they advance they will expand on that definition from their own experiences and from reading through here. If you tell them 'Fall Line' is 'Where a ball would roll if you dropped it', and they want more, they can easily search here and I'm sure they'd be able to find a 25 page thread detailing what a fall line is...

I agree that pictures or video would be very helpful on some of these.....
post #130 of 140
Also, I think we should have a sticky thread with video of basic techniques....

Beginning wedge
Wedge turns
Side stepping
Getting on and off the lift
Getting in the Athletic Stance
etc...
post #131 of 140
post #132 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post






Inside-Ski and Outside-Ski are meaningless to people at Level 1 & 2 - and generally so at level 3. Even the term 'Turn' has no meaning for them yet (unless I have described it - they tend to think 'to corner' rather than 'to turn'.

So - if this is to be a beginners glossary: What is the highest Level of skier in this target audience? Knowing this we can limit our Terms (and discussion) to only those terms we feel are meaningful and useful to skiers at that level and below. (Thus eliminating 'Dynamic Parallel' and such)

.ma
Meaningless - pretty much all ski terms are "meaningless" to beginners. That's why they need to be taught and why this glossary is being developed. It may be true that inside/outside is more for 3/4 but it would help a beginner to know a term that might later be used during instruction. And if skiers learned this term early, it might aid in teaching them.

These beginners are capable of learning. Just because they can't ski doesn't mean that they are stupid. If the concept of inside/outsid ski is inapropriate then set it aside. Don't exclude it from the list.
post #133 of 140
Inside ski = the left ski in a left turn and the right ski in a right turn.
Outside ski = the right ski in a left turn and the left ski in a right turn.
IMHO, inside and outside makes more sense that uphill and downhill when referring to a turn.

Of course, it depends on your experience and the way you teach, but if it can be simply explained in one sentence irrespective of previous experience, it should be included.
post #134 of 140
We definitely should define the skier level. Good luck agreeing on those.
post #135 of 140
Didn't Bob Barnes write a little pamphlet about all this once?

Fall line - The path of least resistance to the pull of gravity.
Apex - The middle of any direction change.
post #136 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
looks like the beginning to a new wikkipedia.

hopefully, the answers will be more accurate than those in wikkipedia.
Haha... Skipedia? or Skidipedia?

haha, not a bad idea.
post #137 of 140
Inside ski : The one closest to the direction of the turn.

Outside ski : The one farthest from the direction of the turn.
post #138 of 140
controlled brushing
post #139 of 140
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
controlled brushing
controlled brushing =skarve
post #140 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
controlled brushing
That's from curling, isn't it?

HURRY HARD!
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