After reading the posting by PhysicsMan in the Training section on banking, angulation, and inclination.. I became a little confused. I understand the differences between them, but I can not seem to visualize a turn done purely by angulation. Does anyone have a link to a video that demonstrates a turn by pure angulation. I also read that these are how to do RR tracks on a gentle slope... Video of this would be awesome as well... It's hard to find pictures of skiing fundamentals it seems... Everyone only video tapes amazing skiing.
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Angulation vs. Banking
post #2 of 148
3/21/07 at 1:11pm
- tdk6
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Except me 
You are missing something important and that is tipping. Tipping is tipping your skis onto an edge. If you do this standing straight up you need to lean your upper body into the other direction or you will fall. This is what some call counterbalancing. It creates angulation between your leggs and upper body. If someone tells you to lay rr-tracks by angulation what they actually are saying is that you need to tip your skis on and edge and lean your upper body the other way. Once you start turning a centrifugal force will be pulling on you towards the outside of the turn (resisting inertia) and to stay in balance you need to lean your whole body in the opposite direction, into the turn. This is what we call inclination. You should still be angulated at your waist. A very natural way of causing tipping and angulation is to bring your hipps into the turn. A good drill for this is to take a DH position and move your butt sideways. This will tip your skis and cause angulation. It will also cause upper body counter which is annother important thing. I can make you a video of it if you like. I must dig in my archives.

You are missing something important and that is tipping. Tipping is tipping your skis onto an edge. If you do this standing straight up you need to lean your upper body into the other direction or you will fall. This is what some call counterbalancing. It creates angulation between your leggs and upper body. If someone tells you to lay rr-tracks by angulation what they actually are saying is that you need to tip your skis on and edge and lean your upper body the other way. Once you start turning a centrifugal force will be pulling on you towards the outside of the turn (resisting inertia) and to stay in balance you need to lean your whole body in the opposite direction, into the turn. This is what we call inclination. You should still be angulated at your waist. A very natural way of causing tipping and angulation is to bring your hipps into the turn. A good drill for this is to take a DH position and move your butt sideways. This will tip your skis and cause angulation. It will also cause upper body counter which is annother important thing. I can make you a video of it if you like. I must dig in my archives.
post #3 of 148
3/21/07 at 1:46pm
Is this right or typo? I always thought we should strive for hip angulation and that waist angulation = bad?
post #4 of 148
3/21/07 at 1:53pm
- TomB
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To me banking and inclination are the same thing. You bank when you tip skis without any counter balance (angulation). Here the word counter balance makes more sense than angulation, because the movement of the upper body in the opposite direction from the tipping is what creates that "angulation".
In any case, at the ESA there was talk about maintaining a stacked position and hence having minimal angulation. I tried that and don't like it much. I need some angulation and in fact angulation (as opposed to simple inclination) allows me to get bigger edge angles at lower speeds.
In any case, at the ESA there was talk about maintaining a stacked position and hence having minimal angulation. I tried that and don't like it much. I need some angulation and in fact angulation (as opposed to simple inclination) allows me to get bigger edge angles at lower speeds.
post #5 of 148
3/21/07 at 1:54pm
- TomB
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Babak,
You angulate at the waist and do some counter with the hips.
You angulate at the waist and do some counter with the hips.
post #6 of 148
3/21/07 at 2:03pm
- Ron White
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hydrogen wv,
Very simply definded in relation to skiing.
inclination-moving to the inside of the turn to counteract forces that pull you out.
banking-leaning to the inside of the turn and keeping the body streight (not balanced over the outside ski).
angulation- while inclining, bending joints and streching/compression of the rib cage, to stay balanced over the outside ski, while tipping the skis on their edges.
A picture of any good racer will show inclination/angulation. A picture of a skier whoes hips, sholders, and hands pitch into the hill demonstrates banking.
Hope this clarifies these terms for you.
RW
Quote:
| After reading the posting by PhysicsMan in the Training section on banking, angulation, and inclination. |
inclination-moving to the inside of the turn to counteract forces that pull you out.
banking-leaning to the inside of the turn and keeping the body streight (not balanced over the outside ski).
angulation- while inclining, bending joints and streching/compression of the rib cage, to stay balanced over the outside ski, while tipping the skis on their edges.
Quote:
| Video of this would be awesome as well... |
Hope this clarifies these terms for you.
RW
- hydrogen_wv
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A picture of any good racer will show those things, but the video that would help me the most would be one of just angulation....
Also, I can scarve turns by purely banking.... I can even get high edge angles, to the point where my hand can touch the ground through the turn... I see how angulation helps (a lot), so I don't see why it would be negative..
If anyone has a video of just some purely angulated rr tracks on a very gentle slope, that'd be awesome... I don't expect anyone to go out and film it especially for me though...
So, here's another question... If I start tipping the skis with slight angulation when trying to do rr tracks, and I feel like I'm losing balance, does that mean I'm not angulated enough?
Also, I can scarve turns by purely banking.... I can even get high edge angles, to the point where my hand can touch the ground through the turn... I see how angulation helps (a lot), so I don't see why it would be negative..
If anyone has a video of just some purely angulated rr tracks on a very gentle slope, that'd be awesome... I don't expect anyone to go out and film it especially for me though...
So, here's another question... If I start tipping the skis with slight angulation when trying to do rr tracks, and I feel like I'm losing balance, does that mean I'm not angulated enough?
post #8 of 148
3/21/07 at 2:49pm
- Kneale Brownson
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If you're losing balance in the sense of falling into the turn, then you need more angulation. If you're losing balance to the outside of the turn, you may be angulating too much.
post #9 of 148
3/21/07 at 2:50pm
- Ron White
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hydrogen wv,
Angulation is a good thing, but if you can touch your hand on the snow while inclining, you are banking (not good). If you are loosing balance, then you are leaning inside the turn and not balancing over your outside ski (banking).
Try this while doing RR track turns, take your ski pole, hold it like a pointer (so it would point in front of you instead of behind) and scribe a line in the snow below you half way around the turn to the end of the turn. To do this, you will be angulating.
RW
Quote:
| so I don't see why it would be negative.. |
Try this while doing RR track turns, take your ski pole, hold it like a pointer (so it would point in front of you instead of behind) and scribe a line in the snow below you half way around the turn to the end of the turn. To do this, you will be angulating.
RW
- hydrogen_wv
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Okie.. thanks for all the info everyone... much clearer now.
Ron... thing is, I feel balanced when I bank hard in a turn and touch my hand on the snow.. But with some angulation, I could get much higher edge angles.

Ron... thing is, I feel balanced when I bank hard in a turn and touch my hand on the snow.. But with some angulation, I could get much higher edge angles.

post #11 of 148
3/21/07 at 5:54pm
From a PMTS perspective you counter balance from the pelvis up. When dropping into a turn I try to get the inside of my pelvis so its level or even higher then the outside.
post #12 of 148
3/21/07 at 5:57pm
Quote:
|
Ron... thing is, I feel balanced when I bank hard in a turn and touch my hand on the snow.. But with some angulation, I could get much higher edge angles.
|
When a skier counter balances against the inclination they move a greater amount of pressure to the outside ski which results in tighter turns and better edge grip.
post #13 of 148
3/21/07 at 6:05pm
- Ghost
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The slower you ski and the less sharp the turn, the more angulation you need to stay balanced along the outside ski. If the grip isn't there to make sharp turns at speed, you need to angulate more as you either slow down or turn less sharply.
- hydrogen_wv
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Makes sense.... So, If i'm doing a short radius turn and right before the edge transition, if I am banked (somehow) without counter-balancing could that be a reason for losing the edge...
Last time I was out this happened... I was doing short radius turns, and my skis were pointing almost across the fall line, and I lost the edge and fell... banking without angulating, or another reason?
Last time I was out this happened... I was doing short radius turns, and my skis were pointing almost across the fall line, and I lost the edge and fell... banking without angulating, or another reason?
post #15 of 148
3/21/07 at 6:12pm
Sure, that would be a possible cause.
post #16 of 148
3/21/07 at 6:21pm
- Kneale Brownson
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Additionally, if you are banking that much, you have to move your entire body a long way to change to the other set of edges for turning in the other direction. Not something you can do very quickly. Really inefficient in short radius turns.
post #17 of 148
3/21/07 at 6:30pm
Angulation:
o
|
. \
banking
o
.\
...\
o
|
. \
banking
o
.\
...\
- hydrogen_wv
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Kneale - Yeah... I realize it is inefficient, that's why I've been working on angulating... when I was banking that much, it was more just messing around... I was also doing backwards wedge turns while sitting on my skis as well as leaning so far back the front half of my skis were off the ground and still turning... (Can we call this the Highway Star Special?)
I only spend about half my time skiing with efficiency... The other half I just goof off.... All depends on my mood, really..
Now to go out and practice this weekend....
I only spend about half my time skiing with efficiency... The other half I just goof off.... All depends on my mood, really..
Now to go out and practice this weekend....
post #19 of 148
3/21/07 at 7:13pm
This article is a good fit for our current discussion.
Counter Balance
Counter Balance
post #20 of 148
3/21/07 at 8:05pm
- HeluvaSkier
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZMH7eqVDI
Above is the link that you posted for MA a few days ago. I don't want to turn this into an MA thread, but from watching this I can understand how the difference between angulation and banking might be slightly perplexing you. Now, I am sure that the video does not represent your best skiing since it was without poles, but it did show a lack of separation between the upper and lower body, a moderate lack of balance with the outside ski, and severe rushing of the turn as a result the above two things. The fact that you were lacking poles also shows that you have a habbit of dropping your hands behind you, which can be a detriment to your upper body position if you do not have the movements already engrained into your head.
When I was taught "angulation" I was not taught to assume a specific position in the turn. Rather I was taught to separate the movement and position of my upper body from the movements of my lower body - resulting in what one would describe as angulation. Now it seems that the thinking in some circles is to describe traditional angulation as "counter balance." This is essentially the same thing as teaching separation. What will help you the most in your quest to understand the difference between angulation and banking is why angulation works and why banking doesn't... or where angulation works and where banking works. This will lead you in the direction of understanding the forces that are generated in a turn and how you should dynamically position your body to menage them the best. To dumb it down into simple terms, when the forces in a turn are high, you can get away with banking without falling onto your inside ski. Conversely, when the forces are low, or very short live (SL and GS turns) you cannot get away with using banking as your primary method of carving. While you may "get away with it" on some more forgiving surfaces, this is a general rule that when applied to your free skiing will likely put you well ahead of the majority of the skiers on the mountain as most skiers that you see do not understand how to separate the movements of their upper body and lower body.
Below is a link to some of my own skiing from a few weeks ago. Toward the middle of the clip you can see me encounter some traffic in the form of a snowboarder in front of me, so I make a non-countered, highspeed arc to the other side of the trail. The high speed and highe forces of that turn allowed me to survive banking it. In the other turns you will see more separation between my upper and lower body... although it can be hard to see because of the box style coat that I wear. The skiing is far from perfect, but it does offer a nice contrast between the two kinds of turns, even though the "angulated" turns could be better balanced.
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpxRF0lZvYs
Later
GREG
Above is the link that you posted for MA a few days ago. I don't want to turn this into an MA thread, but from watching this I can understand how the difference between angulation and banking might be slightly perplexing you. Now, I am sure that the video does not represent your best skiing since it was without poles, but it did show a lack of separation between the upper and lower body, a moderate lack of balance with the outside ski, and severe rushing of the turn as a result the above two things. The fact that you were lacking poles also shows that you have a habbit of dropping your hands behind you, which can be a detriment to your upper body position if you do not have the movements already engrained into your head.
When I was taught "angulation" I was not taught to assume a specific position in the turn. Rather I was taught to separate the movement and position of my upper body from the movements of my lower body - resulting in what one would describe as angulation. Now it seems that the thinking in some circles is to describe traditional angulation as "counter balance." This is essentially the same thing as teaching separation. What will help you the most in your quest to understand the difference between angulation and banking is why angulation works and why banking doesn't... or where angulation works and where banking works. This will lead you in the direction of understanding the forces that are generated in a turn and how you should dynamically position your body to menage them the best. To dumb it down into simple terms, when the forces in a turn are high, you can get away with banking without falling onto your inside ski. Conversely, when the forces are low, or very short live (SL and GS turns) you cannot get away with using banking as your primary method of carving. While you may "get away with it" on some more forgiving surfaces, this is a general rule that when applied to your free skiing will likely put you well ahead of the majority of the skiers on the mountain as most skiers that you see do not understand how to separate the movements of their upper body and lower body.
Below is a link to some of my own skiing from a few weeks ago. Toward the middle of the clip you can see me encounter some traffic in the form of a snowboarder in front of me, so I make a non-countered, highspeed arc to the other side of the trail. The high speed and highe forces of that turn allowed me to survive banking it. In the other turns you will see more separation between my upper and lower body... although it can be hard to see because of the box style coat that I wear. The skiing is far from perfect, but it does offer a nice contrast between the two kinds of turns, even though the "angulated" turns could be better balanced.
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpxRF0lZvYs
Later
GREG
post #21 of 148
3/21/07 at 8:32pm
In these quick little turns I use counter balance so I stay in balance when I'm on the edges. It looks like the upper body isn't really doing much but I'm actively crunching alot at the obliques with each turn.
Quick Turns
Quick Turns
post #22 of 148
3/21/07 at 8:48pm
- borntoski683
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Quote:
|
In any case, at the ESA there was talk about maintaining a stacked position and hence having minimal angulation.
|
post #23 of 148
3/22/07 at 12:45am
- Bob Barnes
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Wow--here's another age-old discussion that keeps coming around again and again!
It's important to understand that all these words--inclination, angulation, and banking--describe movements that simply happen in skiing. Some would make this into an argument about fundamental philosophy or suggest that they represent distinctly different techniques, or that one is inherently preferable while another is to be avoided.
But such is not the case, and this argument is really almost as silly as debating whether your right foot or your left foot should be ahead when walking. Any answer to that question, other than "it depends," is nonsense, isn't it? What's right in one case may be very wrong in another.
For those interested in understanding these concepts, let's take a closer look. For starters, here are some time-honored definitions of the terms:
I think of angulation, on the other hand, as primarily an edge control movement. I can adjust my degree of angulation at will, at any time, without losing my balance. For example, if you are simply standing upright and still, and you decide (for some reason) that you need to tip your feet and skis on edge, you will need to angulate. You can use any combination of feet/ankles, knees, hips, and spine, but the key is that as one part moves one way, another moves the other way to maintain balance.
Some knowledgeable skiers prefer to think of inclining the feet and lower legs as the edge control movement, and angulation as the movements of the upper body in the other direction to balance or counterbalance--an equally accurate way to look at the concepts. No conflict, as long as we understand the different effects of creating angles and moving the center of mass and remain consistent in our use of the terms. Beyond that, it's semantics and personal preference.
So what? What really matters, of course, is to know "so what the heck should I do?" Simple question, but the answer, naturally, is . . . "it depends!"
Need more edge angle? Angulate. Need less? "De-angulate" (bank). Out of balance? Hmm. . . could be could be either one. The key is to develop the skills and natural instincts to move as needed, to control both edge angle and balance continuously throughout turns.
Not long ago, when skis were long and straight, things may have been simpler. More edge angle was (almost always) more better, so banking usually was a fault. Today's skis respond much more sensitively to edge angle, and more edge angle is definitely not always better, even when simply trying to get the skis to hold. Today's skis change their behavior dramatically with even subtle changes of edge angle.
[Technical diversion for those interested; skip to the next paragraph if you're not!] A modern slalom ski with a 12-meter radius sidecut, tipped 30 degrees to the snow, will "want" to carve a turn slightly more than 10 meters in radius. Tip it to 45 degrees, and it will carve a turn of about 8.5 meters. At 60 degrees, it will "try" to carve a turn half its sidecut radius--6 meters. At 75 degrees to the snow surface--easily possible for strong skiers--that same ski will bend to an arc just over 3 meters! (Yes, for those curious or just argumentative, these numbers are somewhat simplified, and they assume very hard snow and sufficient and accurately distributed pressure to bend the ski into full "reverse camber" in each case. They are based on Tom "PhysicsMan's" simplified formula that carving radius = sidecut radius x cosine of edge angle on the snow. In real skiing, there are more variables that affect ski performance--snow conditions, sidecut shape, flex pattern, torsional and lateral stiffness, and so on.)
In any case, today's skis are hypersensitive to edge angle, and great skiing involves precise communication between skier and ski, with constant, fine control of edge angle for optimal ski performance. Tip a ski too far, and it will "try" to carve a turn tighter than you want, resulting in a less clean carve at best, sometimes skidding completely out of the turn. Many advanced skiers blow out at the bottoms of their turns due to too much edge angle--not too little--especially on steeps, where the hill angle adds to the edge angle, and where forces at the bottom of the turn become especially intense.
So arbitrary tips like "angulate more," or "keep the shoulders level with the hill," or "reach down the hill with your downhill arm," or "lift your uphill hip," all intended to create more angulation, may be good ideas to practice as exercises. But they do not necessarily describe good skiing! Sometimes you want the minimum edge angle that still allows your skis to hold--meaning banking with just enough ankle tension to keep your skis on line.
Think about this: Edge angle on the snow is the sum of the degrees of inclination and angulation (and also affected by the slope angle). The higher the speed in a given turn, the greater the inclination required for balance, so the less the need for angulation. That's why downhill racers going 80 mph often bank a lot. It's good skiing--not a fault. Nevertheless, a recreational skier on the same line at a third the speed will incline less and need more angulation. Banking for the recreational skier, in this case, would be a fault.
Like I said, it is much more complicated than simply saying "don't bank." Arbitrary advice like that is simply wrong! Imitating the positions and movements of World Cup racers at insane speed rarely leads to good skiing at 20 mph!
As I often do, I urge caution about accepting dogmatic advice about how you "should" look or move on skis. Great ski technique is situational, fluid, and responsive to the ever-changing forces that arise from varying speeds, conditions, terrain, turn shapes, ski performance, and skier intent. Great ski technique starts in the feet and moves up--"my feet tell me what to do," says Keystone instructor Peter Krainz (Austrian and PSIA certified). I like that! It does not start in the head as conscious directions that we try to enforce on our bodies regardless of the situation.
Sometimes you gotta bank. Sometimes you gotta not bank. Practice both, as exercises and drills, to develop skill and feel. But let your body--not your head--choose how to do it when skiing!
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
It's important to understand that all these words--inclination, angulation, and banking--describe movements that simply happen in skiing. Some would make this into an argument about fundamental philosophy or suggest that they represent distinctly different techniques, or that one is inherently preferable while another is to be avoided.
But such is not the case, and this argument is really almost as silly as debating whether your right foot or your left foot should be ahead when walking. Any answer to that question, other than "it depends," is nonsense, isn't it? What's right in one case may be very wrong in another.
For those interested in understanding these concepts, let's take a closer look. For starters, here are some time-honored definitions of the terms:
- Angulation. Suggesting the formation of angles, "angulation" refers to more-or-less sideways bending at various joints, particularly feet/ankles, knees, hips, and spine. When we angulate in any of these joints while maintaining balance, it changes the edge angle of the skis on the snow. In general, the more angulation, the higher the edge angle (again, assuming the skier remains in balance).
The feet, hips, and spine can bend sideways by design. The ankles and knees are not meant to bend sideways (much), so what we call "knee angulation" and "ankle angulation" are more complex then they may seem. "Knee angulation" involves normal fore-aft flexing of the knee, combined with internal rotation (turning "in") of the leg in the hip socket. "Ankle angulation" refers more to movements of the complex collection of bones in the foot, below the true ankle joint (which is strictly a fore-aft hinge joint).
- Inclination. Meaning simply "lean," inclination in skiing refers to tipping your body into a turn for balance, something we do in many activities of motion--riding a bicycle, skating, even walking and running. More specifically, it refers to a movement of the center of mass toward the inside of a turn, with no implication as to the relative positions or movements of any parts of the body. In other words, you can incline while tall or short, and while angulated or not. Yes, we can talk about inclining specific parts of the body--shins, for example--but unless otherwise specified, "inclination" in general refers to the lean of the whole body (center of mass).
- Banking. Banking is the special case of inclination without angulation, when the entire body leans into the turn while remaining more-or-less straight. Often considered an error, in fact banking can be the best move at times, especially in high level, high performance skiing where leaning into the turn (inclination) alone often produces sufficient edge angle.
I think of angulation, on the other hand, as primarily an edge control movement. I can adjust my degree of angulation at will, at any time, without losing my balance. For example, if you are simply standing upright and still, and you decide (for some reason) that you need to tip your feet and skis on edge, you will need to angulate. You can use any combination of feet/ankles, knees, hips, and spine, but the key is that as one part moves one way, another moves the other way to maintain balance.
Some knowledgeable skiers prefer to think of inclining the feet and lower legs as the edge control movement, and angulation as the movements of the upper body in the other direction to balance or counterbalance--an equally accurate way to look at the concepts. No conflict, as long as we understand the different effects of creating angles and moving the center of mass and remain consistent in our use of the terms. Beyond that, it's semantics and personal preference.
So what? What really matters, of course, is to know "so what the heck should I do?" Simple question, but the answer, naturally, is . . . "it depends!"
Need more edge angle? Angulate. Need less? "De-angulate" (bank). Out of balance? Hmm. . . could be could be either one. The key is to develop the skills and natural instincts to move as needed, to control both edge angle and balance continuously throughout turns.
Not long ago, when skis were long and straight, things may have been simpler. More edge angle was (almost always) more better, so banking usually was a fault. Today's skis respond much more sensitively to edge angle, and more edge angle is definitely not always better, even when simply trying to get the skis to hold. Today's skis change their behavior dramatically with even subtle changes of edge angle.
[Technical diversion for those interested; skip to the next paragraph if you're not!] A modern slalom ski with a 12-meter radius sidecut, tipped 30 degrees to the snow, will "want" to carve a turn slightly more than 10 meters in radius. Tip it to 45 degrees, and it will carve a turn of about 8.5 meters. At 60 degrees, it will "try" to carve a turn half its sidecut radius--6 meters. At 75 degrees to the snow surface--easily possible for strong skiers--that same ski will bend to an arc just over 3 meters! (Yes, for those curious or just argumentative, these numbers are somewhat simplified, and they assume very hard snow and sufficient and accurately distributed pressure to bend the ski into full "reverse camber" in each case. They are based on Tom "PhysicsMan's" simplified formula that carving radius = sidecut radius x cosine of edge angle on the snow. In real skiing, there are more variables that affect ski performance--snow conditions, sidecut shape, flex pattern, torsional and lateral stiffness, and so on.)
In any case, today's skis are hypersensitive to edge angle, and great skiing involves precise communication between skier and ski, with constant, fine control of edge angle for optimal ski performance. Tip a ski too far, and it will "try" to carve a turn tighter than you want, resulting in a less clean carve at best, sometimes skidding completely out of the turn. Many advanced skiers blow out at the bottoms of their turns due to too much edge angle--not too little--especially on steeps, where the hill angle adds to the edge angle, and where forces at the bottom of the turn become especially intense.
So arbitrary tips like "angulate more," or "keep the shoulders level with the hill," or "reach down the hill with your downhill arm," or "lift your uphill hip," all intended to create more angulation, may be good ideas to practice as exercises. But they do not necessarily describe good skiing! Sometimes you want the minimum edge angle that still allows your skis to hold--meaning banking with just enough ankle tension to keep your skis on line.
Think about this: Edge angle on the snow is the sum of the degrees of inclination and angulation (and also affected by the slope angle). The higher the speed in a given turn, the greater the inclination required for balance, so the less the need for angulation. That's why downhill racers going 80 mph often bank a lot. It's good skiing--not a fault. Nevertheless, a recreational skier on the same line at a third the speed will incline less and need more angulation. Banking for the recreational skier, in this case, would be a fault.
Like I said, it is much more complicated than simply saying "don't bank." Arbitrary advice like that is simply wrong! Imitating the positions and movements of World Cup racers at insane speed rarely leads to good skiing at 20 mph!
As I often do, I urge caution about accepting dogmatic advice about how you "should" look or move on skis. Great ski technique is situational, fluid, and responsive to the ever-changing forces that arise from varying speeds, conditions, terrain, turn shapes, ski performance, and skier intent. Great ski technique starts in the feet and moves up--"my feet tell me what to do," says Keystone instructor Peter Krainz (Austrian and PSIA certified). I like that! It does not start in the head as conscious directions that we try to enforce on our bodies regardless of the situation.
Sometimes you gotta bank. Sometimes you gotta not bank. Practice both, as exercises and drills, to develop skill and feel. But let your body--not your head--choose how to do it when skiing!
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #24 of 148
3/22/07 at 7:18am
- JohnH
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Images here! Get your images here!
I knew ol' Ron Lemaster would come through.In this set of images of Bennie Raich, the middle image, with him all stretched out, is banking. As BB said, this is inclination withough angulation. No, racers don't do this on purpose. In this case, I can't see the ground well, but it looks like the terrain rolled out from under him, and he had too much speed to maintain good snow contact, so he was forced to stretch it out, and became banked.
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...-gs-2-ppt.html
Then there's Mr. Rocca and Mr. Ligety, showing us what serious angulation is (pay attention to the last frame in each):
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...005-sl-1c.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...l-1a-flat.html
post #25 of 148
3/22/07 at 7:23am
Quote:
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... As BB said, this is inclination withough angulation. No, races don't do this on purpose...
|
Whether it's good for a strong intermediate recreatioanl skier is a different question.
post #26 of 148
3/22/07 at 8:05am
When do they start working on banking as a skill?
post #27 of 148
3/22/07 at 8:18am
Depends on the coach. You have Harb as a "coach" so your answer would be never, though I suspect even he would qualify that for GS at a certain performance level so long as angulation/"counteracting" are used towards the end of the turn.
post #28 of 148
3/22/07 at 9:58am
- kazo
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BB, nice precise language and 'philosophy of good skiing' that is appealing.
Till last season, when I bought Warren Smith's three instructional DVDs (very good IMHO) , I was more of an intuitive skier (you may say DIY skier) with strong background in other sports where sense of balance was fundamental; understanding from the beginning (some 30+ years ago) that skiing is about developing natural balance, I've developed set of drills based on a question 'what if that happens?' , one of those is banking on the inside ski. It was an answer to a question what if I loose an outside edge?, so I bank with my inside hand brushing snow and lifting my outside ski leaving razor sharp ONE track at the bottom of the turn.
Those experiments brought me to a conclusion that bringing two edges to turns is the way to go. I feel it gives me more option 'if something happens', trying varying degrees of weighting them in different situations.
And here I conclude my $.02 on developing 'banking skills'
Till last season, when I bought Warren Smith's three instructional DVDs (very good IMHO) , I was more of an intuitive skier (you may say DIY skier) with strong background in other sports where sense of balance was fundamental; understanding from the beginning (some 30+ years ago) that skiing is about developing natural balance, I've developed set of drills based on a question 'what if that happens?' , one of those is banking on the inside ski. It was an answer to a question what if I loose an outside edge?, so I bank with my inside hand brushing snow and lifting my outside ski leaving razor sharp ONE track at the bottom of the turn.
Those experiments brought me to a conclusion that bringing two edges to turns is the way to go. I feel it gives me more option 'if something happens', trying varying degrees of weighting them in different situations.
And here I conclude my $.02 on developing 'banking skills'
post #29 of 148
3/22/07 at 10:21am
- BigE
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Quote:
|
I knew ol' Ron Lemaster would come through.
In this set of images of Bennie Raich, the middle image, with him all stretched out, is banking. As BB said, this is inclination withough angulation. No, racers don't do this on purpose. In this case, I can't see the ground well, but it looks like the terrain rolled out from under him, and he had too much speed to maintain good snow contact, so he was forced to stretch it out, and became banked. |
http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm
BTW, Nice shots of Raich and Ligety. Boy is Ligety ever in the back seat!
post #30 of 148
3/22/07 at 10:27am
- WILDCAT
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Video of this would be awesome as well... It's hard to find pictures of skiing fundamentals it seems... Everyone only video tapes amazing skiing.
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http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_li...ivelli=&tip=21
http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_li...ivelli=&tip=21
http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_li...ivelli=&tip=21
Michael
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