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The State of skiing teaching methods. (ESA spinnoff) - Page 3

post #61 of 86
link to video?
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdad View Post
link to video?
HERE.
post #63 of 86
It seems that the discordant tone in this thread is from people who have not been to an ESA event, never intend to go, and seem to dislike it that other people enjoy it. I have been processing the student feedback from this year's events so far. (We ask students to fill out an evaluation a couple of weeks after each academy event; we then compile the feedback and send the report to the organizers and head coaches, who disperse it as they wish.) According to actual students, the coaching at ESA is terrific. ESA is a ski clinic and the clinic leaders we seek out are those A) good skiers who are known amongst their peers as master teachers and B) good people that you'd enjoy spending four days hanging out with. Faisasy produced an upbeat video that represents the blast coaches and students alike had at Snowmass and various of its three counterpart areas at Aspen, CO. If you don't like the video, the fun that was had, or the fact that ESA exists, more's the pity, because we will all continue to enjoy Faisal's fun video, remember fondly the fun we had, and next year we'll be back at Snowmass doing it again without ya!
post #64 of 86
I'll likely be at ESA next season and I have skied with many good skiers on this forum(I'm not one of the good skiers) and I think Nolo's emphasis on the fun factor can't be overstated.

If it works it works and the "originality" of the idea isn't relevant. Securing a patent then it pays to be original. Teaching people to do anything then it pays to use ALL available resources.



Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
It seems that the discordant tone in this thread is from people who have not been to an ESA event, never intend to go, and seem to dislike it that other people enjoy it. I have been processing the student feedback from this year's events so far. (We ask students to fill out an evaluation a couple of weeks after each academy event; we then compile the feedback and send the report to the organizers and head coaches, who disperse it as they wish.) According to actual students, the coaching at ESA is terrific. ESA is a ski clinic and the clinic leaders we seek out are those A) good skiers who are known amongst their peers as master teachers and B) good people that you'd enjoy spending four days hanging out with. Faisasy produced an upbeat video that represents the blast coaches and students alike had at Snowmass and various of its three counterpart areas at Aspen, CO. If you don't like the video, the fun that was had, or the fact that ESA exists, more's the pity, because we will all continue to enjoy Faisal's fun video, remember fondly the fun we had, and next year we'll be back at Snowmass doing it again without ya!
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
It seems that the discordant tone in this thread is from people who have not been to an ESA event, never intend to go, and seem to dislike it that other people enjoy it. I have been processing the student feedback from this year's events so far. (We ask students to fill out an evaluation a couple of weeks after each academy event; we then compile the feedback and send the report to the organizers and head coaches, who disperse it as they wish.) According to actual students, the coaching at ESA is terrific. ESA is a ski clinic and the clinic leaders we seek out are those A) good skiers who are known amongst their peers as master teachers and B) good people that you'd enjoy spending four days hanging out with. Faisasy produced an upbeat video that represents the blast coaches and students alike had at Snowmass and various of its three counterpart areas at Aspen, CO. If you don't like the video, the fun that was had, or the fact that ESA exists, more's the pity, because we will all continue to enjoy Faisal's fun video, remember fondly the fun we had, and next year we'll be back at Snowmass doing it again without ya!
I second that.

I feel ESA is really useful for people like me (intermediates) who are not
a) really set in their ways or
b) who are advanced.

Basically if you you are in either category a) or b), the changes you need to make are probably very very subtle and very very hard to do consistently.

I met a guy at the event this year who was a bit in a) and b) and didn't get much out of previous ESA events.

Me .. I am glad I attended after stalling for 2 years

My 2 cents.
post #66 of 86
I'm all about fun.

That's what skiing should be.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad555 View Post
I second that.

I feel ESA is really useful for people like me (intermediates) who are not
a) really set in their ways or
b) who are advanced.

Basically if you you are in either category a) or b), the changes you need to make are probably very very subtle and very very hard to do consistently.

I met a guy at the event this year who was a bit in a) and b) and didn't get much out of previous ESA events.

Me .. I am glad I attended after stalling for 2 years

My 2 cents.
Did the camp bring your skill to another level? I hope it’s not just about fun.

Thx
post #68 of 86
Part of the fun is learning new things and changing old habits.

It's worth noting that people whose skiing has markedly improved as a result of attending ESA are both its best advertisement and its most loyal customers. A very small percentage of ESA attendees are there without a) having attended a previous ESA event, b) being related or married to a previous ESA student, or c) having been referred by one of the previous students or one of the ESA coaches.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad555 View Post
I feel ESA is really useful for people like me (intermediates) who are not
a) really set in their ways or
b) who are advanced.

Basically if you you are in either category a) or b), the changes you need to make are probably very very subtle and very very hard to do consistently.
I would place myself in b, but not in a. I think the issue is if you are in both groups, not just in b. Advanced (and, dare I say) even expert skiers can get something out of skiing with these coaches. The change will not be as dramatic, in all likelihood, but the enjoyment can be very high, still.

There are undoubtedly a number of folks who will not get something out of the ESA. We have noted in the past that those who prefer more one-on-one will not get as much out of the group dynamics of an ESA. There are also undoubtedly areas of possible improvement for the ESA.

Again, however, I enjoyed the skiing of all the folks in that video, just as I did last year's. I enjoyed the time we had, and remember it fondly (even intertwined, as it was, with some very challenging times for me personally).

I'll also say this: anyone who is using this video for MA doesn't understand (literally) the first thing about MA: intent. Without that information, MA is meaningless (literally). So stop using it for that.

I was one of the skiers in the video. No one has asked what I was trying to do with those turns or whether it was just fun skiing. As a result, every analysis (even HH's) of what I was doing has missed the real point. But, it makes for good (virtual) ink, I guess.

BTW, it's a misunderstanding to think of this as showing the "best" the ESA has to offer, advertising the ESA, or anything else like that. It is a compilation video put together for fun to remind those who attended of the fun we had. That's all. Any other use is fine, but not the intent (there's that word again... ).
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBC View Post
Did the camp bring your skill to another level? I hope it’s not just about fun.

Thx
Yes, it most definitely did. And next year I plan to be in at least two.

Frankly, I don't think I would have traveled all the way to Aspen _and_ paid $875 for the clinic just to have fun. I can do that here in Tahoe itself.

That the camp was fun too (and we had a great group+instructor), was just an added bonus. But I would return just for the top notch instruction. It also helped that Arc explained in technical terms the "why" behind the "what".

Again, ssh is right. He had told me (in response to one of my queries before the event), that unless you are open to new ideas, there is no point in going. I was heavily influenced by Lito's videos (PMTS, whatever...) and the first two days were tough for me trying to "remember" new movements. Still, it paid off in the end.

And before the event, I knew no one from this board to have been influenced in any way to go. It was entirely my own decision.
post #71 of 86
I have attended 2 ESA camps (Big Sky and Snowbird). I can't say that my skiing changed radically during the actual 4 day event but I can say that my skiing now is radically changed from the Big Sky event several years ago. I attribute part of the radical change to the coaching I received from Nolo and Bob Barnes. Does it happen instantaneously? Sometimes it does. There are things I thought I understood at the time and things I thought I was doing at the time and I now realize I did not understand them fully and I was definitely not doing them. So, the payoff from excellent coaching may come a long time after the fact. Plus, I met some great people and had lots of fun. People need to have realistic expectatations and do the work afterward to get the full benefit of what ESA has to offer.
post #72 of 86
RBC: Did the camp bring your skill to another level? I hope it’s not just about fun.

If you are an advanced/expert skier a lesson or a clinic cannot easily bring your skiing to "another level". At best you will learn new things, experiment with new techniques and feel the difference some tweaks make in your skiing. It will take the rest of the season (if not several seasons) to truly bring your skiing to another level.
post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
It seems that the discordant tone in this thread is from people who have not been to an ESA event, never intend to go, and seem to dislike it that other people enjoy it. I have been processing the student feedback from this year's events so far. (We ask students to fill out an evaluation a couple of weeks after each academy event; we then compile the feedback and send the report to the organizers and head coaches, who disperse it as they wish.) According to actual students, the coaching at ESA is terrific. ESA is a ski clinic and the clinic leaders we seek out are those A) good skiers who are known amongst their peers as master teachers and B) good people that you'd enjoy spending four days hanging out with. Faisasy produced an upbeat video that represents the blast coaches and students alike had at Snowmass and various of its three counterpart areas at Aspen, CO. If you don't like the video, the fun that was had, or the fact that ESA exists, more's the pity, because we will all continue to enjoy Faisal's fun video, remember fondly the fun we had, and next year we'll be back at Snowmass doing it again without ya!
Thumbs up, nolo! Here's the point for me about ESA: I learned. I had fun. I have met alot fun, nice, interesting people (and my friends and family know me to be a real curmudgeon who hates meeting new people). I've been to 3 ESA's and I will be back for more (see the reasons posted above). Are there other clinics out there that provide similar value and experience? Sure, but this is the one that I choose to go to. One interesting thing is that I brought a friend to ESA Stowe -- he will be back as well, but he almost never looks at this website. He finds the petty arguments and ****waving to be tedious (although I find much of it moderately entertaining).


But HEY. We have gotten WAY of topic! Again Faisal: Great video and thanks for putting in the work on it! (my only complaint is that you didn't include me so that i could get some free ma by scsa...)
post #74 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier31 View Post
I have attended 2 ESA camps (Big Sky and Snowbird). I can't say that my skiing changed radically during the actual 4 day event but I can say that my skiing now is radically changed from the Big Sky event several years ago. I attribute part of the radical change to the coaching I received from Nolo and Bob Barnes. Does it happen instantaneously? Sometimes it does. There are things I thought I understood at the time and things I thought I was doing at the time and I now realize I did not understand them fully and I was definitely not doing them. So, the payoff from excellent coaching may come a long time after the fact. Plus, I met some great people and had lots of fun. People need to have realistic expectatations and do the work afterward to get the full benefit of what ESA has to offer.
Right on!

My wife Terry attended the ESA in Snowbird last year and skied with nolo for the week. She decided not to return this year because she still has so much that she's expanding in her skiing that she didn't want to add to it quite yet. She'll be back at some point, I think.

She went because she knew it would be a blessing to me. It was. But, she left happy that she had gone and delighted with what was changing (continuous present tense) in her skiing. Thanks, nolo. You're amazing.
post #75 of 86
Thread Starter 
This thread has turned into an apology for ESA. There's no need to defend ESA -- it is a great camp and improves skiers of all abilities. We're not going to convince someone who's already made up his/her mind about ESA, especially not PMTS'ers/RealSkiers. PMTS'ers/RealSkiers are obviously skiers on a different level. Even after only a few years of skiing, PMTS'ers/RealSkiers can spot numerous flaws in the skiing of the likes of Barnes, Bergie, Harvey, Weems, etc -- that's how good they are! : They're not going to learn anything at an ESA when they know they can ski better than the coaches. :

And frankly, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with not having to ski with PMTS'ers/RealSkiers. I've skied with some of PMTS's most vocal advocates. Three quarters of them were interested in two things and two things only -- telling you how everybody else sucks, and how good their own skiing is. Sorry, not my cup of tea. I ski for fun, not for ego massage (mine or anyone else's). PMTS'ers/RealSkiers can attend PMTS camps to "dominate the mountain" and concentrate on skiing rather than smiling. For the rest of us, there's ESA.
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by faisasy View Post
We're not going to convince someone who's already made up his/her mind about ESA, especially not PMTS'ers/RealSkiers. PMTS'ers/RealSkiers are obviously skiers on a different level. Even after only a few years of skiing, PMTS'ers/RealSkiers can spot numerous flaws in the skiing of the likes of Barnes, Bergie, Harvey, Weems, etc -- that's how good they are! : They're not going to learn anything at an ESA when they know they can ski better than the coaches. :

And frankly, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with not having to ski with PMTS'ers/RealSkiers. I've skied with some of PMTS's most vocal advocates. Three quarters of them were interested in two things and two things only -- telling you how everybody else sucks, and how good their own skiing is. Sorry, not my cup of tea. I ski for fun, not for ego massage (mine or anyone else's). PMTS'ers/RealSkiers can attend PMTS camps to "dominate the mountain" and concentrate on skiing rather than smiling. For the rest of us, there's ESA.
Personally, I think the ESA academy is a great idea. Early on in another thread when it was announced that Berg was one of the coaches, I was the first to sat jump at the opportunity. If my schedule had allowed it I would have gone.

You also need to realize that the reality is that there are many who do ski better than some of the ESA coaches. Some of these people are actually part of the market that ESA should be targeting. For me, I learn primarily through visualization and mimicking. I'm sorry but someone like Nolo or Weems are not going to do it for me. They could I'm sure give me good advice and verbal coaching but I still need to see it and follow it and I need to aspire to it. Berg on the other hand would be awesome.

You're assesment on PMTS is just wrong. You can't judge a system by a couple of advocates. Honestly, there is no more ego driven or political group than PSIA. It's has numeous cliques on many different levels. Review D-teams over the years and see if you see a pattern.

As for dominating the mountain...I have found that in my skiing and in that of friends and acquaintances that the better you get the bigger the smile. Doesn't mean that a beginner can't have fun but they can't ski bottomless pow or carve corduroy. I don't need to attend a ski group to put a smile on my face. That happens when I ski. I go to get better.

A lot has been said in a variety of threads about PMTS and it's proponents and the sniping they do. But the same can be said of the Epic crowd and the PSIA crowd. I mean Bob Peters could not resist doing it in this thread and here you are and you can't resist. There is obviously a lot of jealousy toward people who have been able to be successful in a business that unfortunately does not have many opportunities left to earn a living.

There are some very legitimate differences between the systems and they should be discussed. Criticism of individuals and personalities is unfortunate but to a certain extent necessary. After all we need to look at the skiing of the top skiers.

I'd love to see Epic really become successful and offer a real alternative to what most people have access to at ski schools. It could with the right marketing and strategy become a true national ski school of a caliber that hasn't ever been seen here in the US. Step one should be walking away from PSIA.
post #77 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
You also need to realize that the reality is that there are many who do ski better than some of the ESA coaches.
I never said that all the ESA coaches are the best skiers around.

Quote:
You're assesment on PMTS is just wrong.
When 3 out of 4 PMTS'ers say that all non-PMTS skiers suck, and only PMTS skiing is good, the assessment is pretty easy to make.

Quote:
You can't judge a system by a couple of advocates.
I'm not judging the system -- PMTS may well be the greatest skiing system ever. I'm just saying I have not really enjoyed skiing with the PMTS skiers that I've met.

Quote:
Honestly, there is no more ego driven or political group than PSIA. It's has numeous cliques on many different levels.
And your point? What do I care about PSIA?

Quote:
As for dominating the mountain...I have found that in my skiing and in that of friends and acquaintances that the better you get the bigger the smile. Doesn't mean that a beginner can't have fun but they can't ski bottomless pow or carve corduroy. I don't need to attend a ski group to put a smile on my face. That happens when I ski. I go to get better.
I ski to have fun and I have fun when I ski. If I am skiing better than I did yesterday, I have more fun. But I don't judge myself against other skiers on the mountain to feel better about myself -- I cannot say the same about some of the PMTS'ers I've skied with (not to say that all PMTS'ers are necessarily alike).

Quote:
A lot has been said in a variety of threads about PMTS and it's proponents and the sniping they do. But the same can be said of the Epic crowd and the PSIA crowd. I mean Bob Peters could not resist doing it in this thread and here you are and you can't resist.
So let's see...this thread was about sharing the highlights of a ski camp. Not one word was said about PSIA or PMTS. The sniping didn't start until RealSkiers jumped in with how terrible all the ESA coaches are.

I have affiliation with neither PSIA or PMTS, nor do I care which one is better or worse. As I said, I ski to have fun, and I have more fun when I ski better than I did before. If I can get that from skiing with the terrible coaches at ESA, what's your beef? I'm sure you are a vastly superior skier. So leave ESA to us gapers -- we're okay with being number 2, or 500, on the mountain. Thank you.
post #78 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
A lot has been said in a variety of threads about PMTS and it's proponents and the sniping they do. But the same can be said of the Epic crowd and the PSIA crowd. I mean Bob Peters could not resist doing it in this thread and here you are and you can't resist.
Isn't there a saying...something to do with glass houses and all? You should look it up. :
post #79 of 86
Just what do you think about ESA is a good idea??...

You sound bitter about PSIA?... did you fail and exam or something that caused you to turn on PSIA? What happened?

Maybe we should video tape the ESA coaches in Aspen next year performing specific tasks that mimic PMTS idealology on the groomers and bumps to demonstrate that it is not all that difficult. and then show some free skiing that demonstrates versatility and skillful blending of all the skills.

I skied with Bergy a fair bit at ESA in Aspen this past January and no doubt he is a great skier, for an ole fart, but I can guarantee you he did not carve through the bumps. He is buttery smooth for sure but those turns where not carved and that is what made them so buttery smooth. His skillful blending of edging and rotary is what makes his skiing so nice. I have also watched the videos and skied with John Clendenin personally and the cat ain't carving in the bumps!

It would be nice for us all to know what your background is and what credentials you posess to back up your statements and critiques but you seem reluctant to tell us anything about yourself or show any of your skiing. If you do in fact ski better than the ESA coaches, perhaps we would listen more intently to your comments but so far I haven't got a clue if you know squat?...


b
post #80 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Just what do you think about ESA is a good idea??...

You sound bitter about PSIA?... did you fail and exam or something that caused you to turn on PSIA? What happened?

Maybe we should video tape the ESA coaches in Aspen next year performing specific tasks that mimic PMTS idealology on the groomers and bumps to demonstrate that it is not all that difficult. and then show some free skiing that demonstrates versatility and skillful blending of all the skills.

I skied with Bergy a fair bit at ESA in Aspen this past January and no doubt he is a great skier, for an ole fart, but I can guarantee you he did not carve through the bumps. He is buttery smooth for sure but those turns where not carved and that is what made them so buttery smooth. His skillful blending of edging and rotary is what makes his skiing so nice. I have also watched the videos and skied with John Clendenin personally and the cat ain't carving in the bumps!

It would be nice for us all to know what your background is and what credentials you posess to back up your statements and critiques but you seem reluctant to tell us anything about yourself or show any of your skiing. If you do in fact ski better than the ESA coaches, perhaps we would listen more intently to your comments but so far I haven't got a clue if you know squat?...
b
Bud:

You seem intent on making this personal. It's not. I'm not bitter about PSIA at all. I don't make my living skiing, thank god. If I did I would be bitter. What surprises me is how members who do make their living continue to give credibility to a group that does nothing for them. I ski purely for fun. In my view PSIA is a farce. It has succumbed under the weight of all hte BS emanating from it's mission. Like many small organizations it has lost it's way and become the domain of the petty politician. When I read BB's comparison of PSIA and PMTS in the US V Them thread I have to laugh because his description of PSIA sums up whats wrong with it to me. Innovation does not come from committees. Think also about all the great skiers that leave PSIA and ski teaching because there is no future in the sport. What a shame and what a loss.

You also continually try to make me out to be a PMTS clone. I am not. I simply recognize that HH was advocating a system of movements that was effective and presented in a different way. During this time I was going to PSIA updates and watching examiners try and get everyone to ski with their skis far apart. For years the emphasis was on steering steering steering. That's when I started paying not to go to updates! I'm glad they are finally catching up and going to a "functional stance" to "blend their skills".

My background/qualification really isn't important. The standards that you ascribe to whether lvl 2 or full cert or dev team or examiner are irrelevant. There is NO consistency within PSIA itself or with it's own standards. I'm a skier and I was fortunate enough to be brought up in the sport by a skiing family and taught by some of the legends in the sport and ski teaching who were family friends.

I also dont ascribe to a right and wrong way to ski. Ski however YOU want. I will look to instructors and other skiers whether in PMTS, PSIA or just a great skier that I want to emulate and learn from.

I think that ESA is good on many levels. It has a talented staff, it has a platform here that makes it national and most importantly it starts to bring back the concept that skiing takes practice and instruction and that the one of the most effective methods is in a multi-day group setting. Resorts have abandoned ski weeks and weekend clinics and PSIA just sat and helped.
post #81 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by faisasy View Post
I've skied with some of PMTS's most vocal advocates.
Let me just add that I've had some awesome days of skiing with these PMTS'ers when we're just skiing, and not talking about technique, PMTS, or PSIA.
post #82 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
I will look to instructors and other skiers whether in PMTS, PSIA or just a great skier that I want to emulate and learn from.
I don't think there's any argument there!
post #83 of 86
I guess it is your judgemental opinions of others without anything to back it up that is irritating Volklskier1. Nothing personal, just principle. Should you offer constructive criticism or thoughtful suggestions for improvement I would be more accepting of your derrogatory statements. Just don't care for all the negativity toward people here and skiing organizations that many here are associated with. Why all the mystery about who you really are? Would telling us deflate what credibility you may think you have here?
Comments like "I don't make a living skiing, thank god" are insulting to those that do. You speak as if you have an intimate understanding of all the goings on in PSIA? From what perspective are you able to make all these conclusions?

Perhaps most ski resorts that have abandoned ski weeks have done so because of lack of interest. Maybe private camps like ESA, Harb camps, NASTC, and others, offer something the resorts fail to offer? A collection of top notch instructors and attention to alignment issues, and evening seminars with industry experts. What would resurrect the resort ski week programs in your mind? How was their demise PSIA's fault?

You criticize like an expert in the field yet offer no value with a solution. Please help us understand where you are coming from with your blanket comments?


b
post #84 of 86
...but not in this thread, please...

I'm going to prune this thread shortly and take out all the stuff that's not about the fun we had at the ESA and the video that Faisasy did such a great job putting together. The rest of this conversation belongs elsewhere.
post #85 of 86
Sorry Steve
post #86 of 86
Ah, the thread that started it all.

When I read this, then the attacks over on realskiers, I was pretty pissed. It made me post the callout thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=53499

All this preciptiated about a dozen other threads, on here and TGR forums.......with hundreds of posts and 30,000+ views. Oooops.

Perhaps Harb can learn a lesson from this. You can only go around talking smack on the internet for so long before someone who knows the game better comes along and gives you a beat down.....in this case, that's me......because I hate bad attitudes that divide us, hurting the growth and progression of the sport in the process. PMTS has alot to offer, but the attitude attached to it does not.
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