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Harb skiing in the bumps, 90's style...(PMTS related)

post #1 of 97
3/12/07 at 2:03pm
Thread Starter 
This was posted over on the realskiers forum, in response to a thread where VikingMD asked for MA. The ironic thing is, Viking is skiing harder bumps than Harb, with pretty much the same technique, on a pair of mantras.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW2cT9DArUo

For the record (and I looked pretty hard), I don't see anything even remotely resembling "moguls" in any of those clips....barely boot top high, at most. Nothing that would make me break out of a GS technique....I'd just come maching through anything shown here at about 35-45 mph, making 3-4 turns per mound, blasting through most of them. I am not impressed by Harb.

Related threads:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=53566

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/...pic.php?t=1535
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post #2 of 97
3/12/07 at 2:06pm
... Is this thread simply commentary on a thread on realsiers.com??
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post #3 of 97
3/12/07 at 2:11pm
brand new direction BUMP.

for ostensibly being about bringing down the harbster and discrediting his methods, i have to believe he's darn appreciative of the spotlight you keep on him and PMTS. ever worn a sandwich billboard ad?
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post #4 of 97
3/12/07 at 2:17pm
Don't flatter yourself. Go build a myspace.
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post #5 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:17pm
Highway Star, don't kid yourself. Most of that footage was taken on the double black terrain off chair 1 at Loveland. Similar to the toughest stuff you'll find at Stowe. The smaller bumps that you see from time to time is where the trail flattens out to empty into a runoff. Glad that you posted that footage, though. Made me realize how badly I sucked last weekend! I'll never live long enough to be able to ski like that, but at least it gives me something to shoot for. And I doubt if HH will take you up on your offer, but I'm willing to bet SCSA might. If he does, just remember to bring your "A" game. And perhaps a change of underwear.
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post #6 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
For the record (and I looked pretty hard), I don't see anything even remotely resembling "moguls" in any of those clips....barely boot top high, at most.
I am not jumping on your bandwagon here, but I would have to agree with you on the above portion of your comments. The bumps in those videos aren't tight and deep enough to really call it "mogul" or "bump" skiing, but perhaps skiing a trail with occasional moguls on it... there were no troughs that I could see on either video, or any deep tight lines.

However, I would have to disagree with you about your "90s" style comment... I don't recall seeing Jean Luc Brassard, Chuck Martin, Sergei Shupletsov, Nelson Carmichael, John Smart, Donna Weinbrect, Liz McIntyre, Anne Battelle, etc, etc, skiing like that in the 90s (using hip angulation instead of knee roll and absorbtion/extension). I also don't remember Jonny Mosely skiing like that in '98 when he won the gold.

cj
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post #7 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj68 View Post
I am not jumping on your bandwagon here, but I would have to agree with you on the above portion of your comments. The bumps in those videos aren't tight and deep enough to really call it "mogul" or "bump" skiing, but perhaps skiing a trail with occasional moguls on it... there were no troughs that I could see on either video, or any deep tight lines.

However, I would have to disagree with you about your "90s" style comment... I don't recall seeing Jean Luc Brassard, Chuck Martin, Sergei Shupletsov, Nelson Carmichael, John Smart, Donna Weinbrect, Liz McIntyre, Anne Battelle, etc, etc, skiing like that in the 90s (using hip angulation instead of knee roll and absorbtion/extension). I also don't remember Jonny Mosely skiing like that in '98 when he won the gold.

cj
Exactly......it's not moguls OR mogul skiing......!!!!!!!
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post #8 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:35pm
Highway Star, stupidly provoking post . I have seen Franz Klammer go 100mph straight down terrain like that in the 70s without any turning at all so Im not really impressed by your self calimed heroism.

By the way, nice bumps and excellent skiing .
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post #9 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:38pm
Gotta disagree here. His skiing is strong. Video always makes bump runs look easy. The man is an utter lunatic, but he can bring it.
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post #10 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Highway Star, stupidly provoking post . I have seen Franz Klammer go 100mph straight down terrain like that in the 70s without any turning at all so Im not really impressed by your self calimed heroism.
Exactly.....those aren't bumps, and he's not bump skiing....he's just making old school scarved turns in some variable snow.....:

Oh, they are nice turns, and it's great skiing, no question.
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post #11 of 97
3/12/07 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj68 View Post
I am not jumping on your bandwagon here, but I would have to agree with you on the above portion of your comments. The bumps in those videos aren't tight and deep enough to really call it "mogul" or "bump" skiing, but perhaps skiing a trail with occasional moguls on it... there were no troughs that I could see on either video, or any deep tight lines.
This is kind of stange.... but on the other hand none of you have probably ever tried to make a skiing video. Or any other video for that matter because if you did you would know that finding the right terrain and conditions where camerasetup and light and snow conditions all match is not that easy. HH was probably mad as hell not to have any better terrain to shoot his video at. Insted of bashing him for that you should thank him for managing to make an excellent skiing video.

BTW, I have seen mogul skiing like that for as long as I can remember. Are you guys saying that this kind of skiing somehow was invented during or even after the 90's or what? And why do you compare functional all mountain mogul skiing to FIS zipper line BS?
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post #12 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
For the record (and I looked pretty hard), I don't see anything even remotely resembling "moguls" in any of those clips....barely boot top high, at most.
A-bowl is rated double black and cats meow is rated black http://www.skiloveland.com/map/lift/lift1.htm
Both have very good size moguls. If I compare the videos of you and HH skiing I would say hands down that HH is much more control skier than you. I don't know how old you are but, there is no way you will be able to ski like you are right now when get to the age of HH without hurting yourself. Seriously, comparing the two videos hands down HH is the winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW2cT9DArUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsV2EFvDkM
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post #13 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
This is kind of stange.... but on the other hand none of you have probably ever tried to make a skiing video. Or any other video for that matter because if you did you would know that finding the right terrain and conditions where camerasetup and light and snow conditions all match is not that easy. HH was probably mad as hell not to have any better terrain to shoot his video at. Insted of bashing him for that you should thank him for managing to make an excellent skiing video.

BTW, I have seen mogul skiing like that for as long as I can remember. Are you guys saying that this kind of skiing somehow was invented during or even after the 90's or what? And why do you compare functional all mountain mogul skiing to FIS zipper line BS?
That funny rite thar... I don't care who u r !

Yeah, I have never shot video of myself before, nor have the WC level coaches at the numerous mogul camps I have attended.

As far as the FIS zipper line bs (god, I hate the term zipper line, because bump skiers never use that term... why? because it is implied that you are skiing the most direct path down the fall line or the LINE) then I guess we must say that all FIS sanctioned disciplines are bs, such as GS, downhill, SL, etc and are of no value to the amateur skier.

Funny that you come from the same country as some of the greatest mogul skiers of all time and yet you still don't have a clue. The skills learned in mogul skiing will help a person in many aspects of their skiing. Have you seen any video of Jeremy Bloom, Mike Douglas, David Babic, etc, etc skiing alll mountain? Let me give you a hint... it's out there... in some Warren Miller films none the less.

FYI, I shoot A LOT of video of myself skiing... not for internet showoff purposes, but for learning/self coaching.

I also never bashed his skiing, I simply stated that this was not mogul skiing. BTW, the subject line did read "in the bumps" not "all mountain", so I don't know where your argument is on that one.

cj
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post #14 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
This is kind of stange.... but on the other hand none of you have probably ever tried to make a skiing video. Or any other video for that matter because if you did you would know that finding the right terrain and conditions where camerasetup and light and snow conditions all match is not that easy. HH was probably mad as hell not to have any better terrain to shoot his video at. Insted of bashing him for that you should thank him for managing to make an excellent skiing video.

BTW, I have seen mogul skiing like that for as long as I can remember. Are you guys saying that this kind of skiing somehow was invented during or even after the 90's or what? And why do you compare functional all mountain mogul skiing to FIS zipper line BS?
I CALL BS ON THIS POST.

You can nut-swing all you want on the Harb, but that doesn't make your post true.

I've worked with video and skiing since I was a kid in the early 90's. My brother has put together several semi-pro quality snowboarding videos. I can read snow quality and and pitch from video better than the vast majority of people.

The tiny snow mounds shown in this video are NOT MOGULS. Most of the terrain is not particularly steep either, you can see people gaping it up in the background.....looks like they went out in the afternoon on a powder day, and skied the crud mounds that formed up from skier traffic on ungroomed intermediate trails......
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post #15 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:19pm
So is the Harb rotating his feet/steering the skis in those clips??? For certain he is!
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post #16 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:24pm
Video can be deceiving especially when it is resized and compressed and then uploaded to a site like youtube that compresses and resizes it yet again.

Here's a grab from the video which shows HH coming over a bump and then in the trough that follows.



Also, while the terrain isn't the steepest, there is plenty of pitch on those bump runs.
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post #17 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
So is the Harb rotating his feet/steering the skis in those clips??? For certain he is!
There is no doubt that the skis redirect. The technique used is in Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 2...Bullet Proof Short Turns.
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post #18 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
This was posted over on the realskiers forum, in response to a thread where VikingMD asked for MA. The ironic thing is, Viking is skiing harder bumps than Harb, with pretty much the same technique, on a pair of mantras.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW2cT9DArUo

For the record (and I looked pretty hard), I don't see anything even remotely resembling "moguls" in any of those clips....barely boot top high, at most. Nothing that would make me break out of a GS technique....I'd just come maching through anything shown here at about 35-45 mph, making 3-4 turns per mound, blasting through most of them. I am not impressed by Harb.

Related threads:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=53566

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/...pic.php?t=1535
HS...you need to remember to take all your meds, every day.
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post #19 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:28pm
I'm always amazed by people's ability to judge terrain from video clips. I've seen video of 40 degree slopes that looked flat, and of 15 degree green runs that looked terrifying. It all depends on the camera work and various features of human perception that make it hard for us to judge terrain angles.

Now, apparently, people can judge bump size from YouTube clips so washed out thet look like a black blob moving against a pure white background.

And Lonnie - Yes his legs are rotating. Is he rotating them, though?
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post #20 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:29pm
The more I watch those clips, the more in awe I am of his technique. Can someone pass me the Kool-Aid, please?


And, oh yes, plenty of rotary motion. But, man, what feet he has. He's like friggin' Nijinsky out there.
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post #21 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Video can be deceiving especially when it is resized and compressed and then uploaded to a site like youtube that compresses and resizes it yet again.

Here's a grab from the video which shows HH coming over a bump and then in the trough that follows.



Also, while the terrain isn't the steepest, there is plenty of pitch on those bump runs.
In all fairness to Harb, there are two points in the clip where he is skiing signifigant bumps, in the first 10 seconds, and then from 1:20 to 1:50. Those would be medium sided bumps, about as hard as you would find on a single-black bump trail on in the east in optimal conditions. I would have to use quasi-bump technique on them, and could not simply ski them like crud.

Double black eastern bumps, such as what you would find at Stowe, Sugarbush or Killington, are signifigantly more rutted and slightly deeper, than anything shown in this clip, FYI.
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post #22 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:46pm
One thing I find amusing is that I see a huge similarity between Harb's technique and Cannonball's technique in his super-short-radius-turn video posted a couple of months ago. If I recall correctly, the PMTS people jumped all over Cannonball's "windshield wiper" turns. Well, guess what, throw some bumps into the mix and that's what those turns look like.
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post #23 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star View Post
Double black eastern bumps
: : :

you know where they are.

video would really help your cause here.

don't be shy.
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post #24 of 97
3/12/07 at 4:56pm
My take: I see a skier for the most part owning the front seat which means control and that's never a bad thing. I also see a lot more arm/pole swinging and exaggerated lateral movement than is needed to maintain control in that terrain. However with only occasional exceptions (at least from what's including in this footage) he is staying in the front seat and I'm guessing making the kind of turns he's comfortable making. As others have said, not a bad piece of skiing, and if the guy can maintain his energy and keep up with whatever he's keeping up with, good for him. If he thinks this is a model for all to follow...with disdain for other styles (which seems to be the source of all this rancor), then he's cranky...big deal.
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post #25 of 97
3/12/07 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie View Post
One thing I find amusing is that I see a huge similarity between Harb's technique and Cannonball's technique in his super-short-radius-turn video posted a couple of months ago. If I recall correctly, the PMTS people jumped all over Cannonball's "windshield wiper" turns. Well, guess what, throw some bumps into the mix and that's what those turns look like.
Just to correct the record here, "The PMTS People" did no such thing, if by that you mean PMTS coaches and the other people here generally known to be students of PMTS coaches or to have taught themselves from Harald's books.

A couple of people picked a fight with Bud to prove their l44t MA sk1llz because they spotted Cannonballs turns weren't carved (shocking!) None of those people have any particular affiliation with PMTS, although they did quote Harald a couple of times in trying to prove their point. Harald can't be held accountable for everyone who quotes him while trying to make themselves look clever. He does quite enough dumb stuff himself that you can pick on him for if you want to.

Cannonball's skiing is not quite like Harald's. He's a Canadian demo team member and as such has a pronounced up-movement during transition and tends to retract, rather than extend, his legs as the turn progresses. Top level PSIA and PMTS skiers do not have these movements because both of those instructional systems consider them to be inefficient. These issues only came up fairly tangentially in that thread, which was a classic example of the problem currently being discussed over in the "Us versus Them" thread.
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post #26 of 97
3/12/07 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie View Post
The more I watch those clips, the more in awe I am of his technique. Can someone pass me the Kool-Aid, please?


And, oh yes, plenty of rotary motion. But, man, what feet he has. He's like friggin' Nijinsky out there.
Given your screen name, may I suggest this flavor of Kool Aid:

http://www.mogullogic.com/university.html

or this:

http://www.momentumskicamps.com/gall...dultvideo.html

cj
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post #27 of 97
3/12/07 at 6:03pm
I'm no PMTS'er, PSIA member in fact, but I still have to say Harold Harb is one of the best skiers I've ever watched video of.

HS you can ski, but saying you're "beyond" the techniques of PSIA and PMTS implies you mastered them and then moved on.

Your style is self-taught and aggressive. You are not beyond, you are merely different.

I don't do a lot of drills, but I have studied and work with the principals of skiing that the great technicians have developed. They work, they are making me a better skier. That and a LOT of mileage. It's not the drills, it's the mechanics, and those mechanics developed on groomers apply to crud and off-piste conditions, things that I could not do before I began mastering the mechanics. Again, not drills, just knowledge.

Try playing a d flat major scale fast without learning the fingering. Do you think if you can hunt and peck on a typewriter REALLY FAST that you could ever type with the skill of someone who learned the mechanics of touch-typing? You might think you're typing fast, and you might impress people who can't type, and you might even impress good typists how well you get by - but you'll never type with the skill of someone who knows the mechanics, the fingering.
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post #28 of 97
3/12/07 at 6:10pm
cj68,

I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole skiing the fast line fast, wiggle your skis back and forth thing. Not that I could do it if I wanted to. But, if I could press a button, I'd like to be able to ski the bumps (whether they're really bumps or not in the video) like Harb.
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post #29 of 97
3/12/07 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie View Post
cj68,

I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole skiing the fast line fast, wiggle your skis back and forth thing. Not that I could do it if I wanted to. But, if I could press a button, I'd like to be able to ski the bumps (whether they're really bumps or not in the video) like Harb.
Fair enough, however I disagree on two points - about the line description and technique; the lines that are typically being skied by the pro bumpers in the videos are the slow lines to mere mortals, simply because they are deeper and tighter than most lines and require a lot more technical proficiency. You can experience this by going on a WC course right after a comp, or just go one of the mogul specific camps and have a look at their terrain. They are so technically sound that they can ski any line at any speed they want. I guess you could call it the "slow line fast".

Also, they are not just wiggling their skis back and forth... what you are seeing is a product of using knee angle, foot containment, and A&E to work with the uneven terrain.

BTW, you could do it if you wanted to, but you have to be willing to open your mind, get some good coaching, and practice. But I respect your right to choose any style of skiing that you prefer and that is what makes the world go around .

cj
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post #30 of 97
3/12/07 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
Just to correct the record here, "The PMTS People" did no such thing.
Just looked back at the thread. You're right. My bad. Somehow I got the carving zealots and the PMTS zealots confused.
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