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Us and Them

post #1 of 153
Thread Starter 
Great Pink Floyd tune but not the reason for this thread.

As a long time member of Epic Ski and a concerned reader as well as an avid skier for over 50 years, it is clear to me there has been a decline in the quality of the Tech and Instruction over the past few years. This decline is mainly caused by the continueing arguments between two learning systems, PMTS and PSIA.

As a person with no dog in this fight other than the preservation of the quality we give the readers and posters of this website, I have no preference for either. I am self taught, stole some lessons from friends who are instructors and am to the point in my skiing life where I no longer feel I need to learn anything else about the sport I love.

As I see it, Harald is an awesome and talented skier and his teaching methods are no doubt a great learnig tool for those who seek out their skiing improvment. PSIA although somewhat different, has a proven record as well and has been using proven teaching methods for many years. High level inspectors and instructors in PSIA are also awesome skiers in their own right. Who are the better skiers or who's teaching methods shouldn't be an issue. If the goal of each is to develope better skiers, it shouldn't matter to either camp.

It's time to be Professional here. It's time to put the petty differences behind. It's time for the Professionals and followers of both camps to put aside any and all personal issues and get back to the bussiness at hand. That is helping those individuals who come here to seek out answers to their questions so they can become better skiers and better understand what it will take to attain the level of skiing they can be comfortable with. Instead of looking professional, by engaging in the banter of argument, you are only exposing yourselves to a perception by others that I'm sure you can't feel proud of.

Since Epic Ski is a learning site, open discussions about PMTS methods and PSIA methods are crucial parts of the reading and learning process here. We need competent input from both and input from the top level people from both. By allowing this, PMTS and Realskiers benefits just as well as the PSIA instructors who frequent this site. No one benefits from the arguments or the hit and run tactics by individuals who favor one method over the other.

So, I would like to ask everyone involved, those from Realskiers and PMTS followers and those PSIA instructors and followers to put this all behind. Get back to the business at hand and be the professionals you are to help those who need you and your knowledge. What do you say? The snow's great, lets go skiing.
post #2 of 153
Looks good on paper, but for some reason I don't see it happening.. It'd be nice, though...
post #3 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
It's time to be Professional here. It's time to put the petty differences behind. It's time for the Professionals and followers of both camps to put aside any and all personal issues and get back to the bussiness at hand.
Come on, we all know it's really time for a "loser leaves town steel cage death match". Then the loser can come back in a month or two and start running smack again.
post #4 of 153
The Hatfields and the McCoys feuded for 150 years over a pig; however, they did finally agree that their feuding was stupid and that nobody alive remembered why they hated each other, so perhaps there is hope for American ski instruction as well.
post #5 of 153
In 150 years...
post #6 of 153
Lars, I applaud your remarks and insight. I'll second your comments. Would love to see a cooperative engagement of teaching and learning ideals.
post #7 of 153
Lars, I appreciate the sentiment behind your post, but honestly, why do you do this? Your very posting of this thread serves no more than to perpetuate this silly and non-productive situation. There is no "us" and "them," assuming that EpicSki remains what it has always tried to be--an open forum for "all of us." If anyone is welcome to be part of EpicSki, then the very idea of "them" is an oxymoron.

And the whole PSIA vs. PMTS thing is a fabrication originated by Harald Harb to promote his programs (on that level, it's good marketing on his part). There is no debate. As long as you and anyone else continue to recognize it as a debate, or even as a discussion, you perpetuate a distortion of reality that serves no purpose whatsoever other than to degrade the quality of EpicSki--the very thing you decry in your initial post.

Comparing PMTS and PSIA is, as Pierre has suggested, like comparing "apples and softballs" (or something to that effect). It's an individual (Harb) vs. an organization (PSIA). It's a teaching progression (PMTS) vs. a teaching system (American Teaching System). It's a technique-based model (PMTS) vs. a skills-based model (Skills Concept), a mechanistic (based on particular movement patterns and preferences) model (PMTS) vs. a humanistic (individual needs-based) model (PSIA).

It is not a an argument about preferred techniques or progressions. There is a "PMTS technique"; there is not a "PSIA technique." There is a "PMTS progression"; there is not a PSIA progression. PMTS instructors are taught to administer a particular set of drills with a specific technical outcome. PSIA instructors learn to identify student motivations and needs and to create and tailor a unique, specific progression toward that end. PMTS students learn PMTS. PSIA instructors' students learn carving if they want to carve, zipperline bumps if they want zipperline bumps, rail slides, half pipe tricks, and skiing switch if they want freestyle, race techniques if they want to win races, and so on. (Yes, there are common threads, skills, and principles in all of these diverse skiing arenas, despite diverse applications, blends, and characteristics.) PMTS trains instructors to deliver a progression. PSIA trains you to develop one.

It could be a legitimate debate between Harb's PMTS and another particular ski school, led by another instructor/training manager (Keystone, for example, led by me). PMTS competes with the EpicSki Academy. It competes with NASTC, the Mahre Training Center, Ski Schools of Aspen, Keystone's Betty Fest, Snowbird's Steeps Camps, Deslaurier's X-Team camps, and any number of other branded programs around the world.

PMTS does not compete with PSIA, which is not a branded learning progression in any way and markets no programs to the public. PSIA helps provide an educational foundation for instructors to develop their own personal brands if they choose, or to work within any branded program (including PMTS, as evident from the fact that many PMTS instructors also hold PSIA certifications). PMTS, like most brands, promotes differentiation ("we're different, unique, better, etc."). PSIA, like most educational organizations, encourages learning, discussion, debate, and diversity (including the PMTS progression, when appropriate for the specific needs of a student). PMTS is exclusive, and promotes that fact loudly. PSIA is inclusive. PMTS is restrictive (only teach and only learn particular approved movements). PSIA is flexible (teach and learn any movements, including so-called "PMTS movements," as appropriate and as needed).

To suggest that PSIA and PMTS are in any way "competing instructor organizations," or "competing teaching systems," is absolutely silly. They can co-exist just fine without competing, just as easily as PSIA can co-exist with the Keystone Ski & Ride School. It would be ridiculous for me to say that Keystone "competes" with PSIA. Keystone certainly offers a unique, branded experience to skiers, just as PMTS does for its participants, and other schools and programs do for theirs, while PSIA provides valuable education and background to our instructors to help us all understand more, teach better, and ski better. Our instructors have varying backgrounds, including international race and coaching experience, various national instructor organization affiliations, and even a PMTS-trained instructor or two. All of this supports and adds to the Keystone brand. There is no competition!

Anyway, I am as tired of this pseudo-debate as you--probably moreso. So I have to ask again--why do you prolong it by starting yet another thread on this non-topic, Lars? Discuss skiing. Discuss teaching. Discuss your experiences with any ski school, instructor, or branded learning program. Leave the "us vs. them" "debate" for smaller minds.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #8 of 153

Oh, Geez, Lars...

You have really gone and done it this time!

And this time I'm gonna jump right in and call BS! Right Now! :

The reasons behind the decline of decent technical content on EpicSki has absolutely nothing to to with your "feud" between PMTS and PSIA proponents!

It has everything to do with the caliber of the half-a$$ed pros posting their respective gospels here, and the naive public willing to listen to them! There are so many of these skiing evangelists, its like trying to find something good to watch on TV on a Sunday morning. And the din of all their combined voices has drowned out the real content. So much of the JUNK I have read on EpicSki over the past several years has been unbelievably laughable! And like I said- there are people on here just dry as sponges, waiting to suck it up! I really don't blame them, because they do not know any better!

Let's face it- there are few pros, less than about a dozen I'd say, that are really on track with the content promoting contemporary ski technique. And most have dropped by the wayside. We have also had people who ARE EXPERTS in their fields, such as Physicsman, dp, and others who have, for all intentional purposes, quit posting because competing with the noise took more effort than they wanted to extend. I myself, quit posting for a long time for several reasons, and this was one of the primary ones!

Often a thread will get started with an honest question asking about a particular facet of technique. Most of the respondents have absolutely no significant training in contemporary technique and the others are just posting to see their post count go up. They are just regurgitating what they heard from some instr that they took a lesson with 2 or more years ago...

When a thread gets started asking for MA, everybody and their kid brother jumps in on it. Again, 97% of the subscribers to the thread will have had no training in analyzing skiing effectively. This is where several PMTS'ers jump in, because they feel they have a handle on some magic moves which are going to not only solve the person's problems, but world hunger as well! Then the thread gets hijacked into another "feud thread", effectively destroying any benefit to the original poster.

I understand there is talk once again about having a forum or two where only pro's will be allowed to post. Everyone will have access to read the information presented there, but from a pro's point of view, it will keep down all the 'noise', and allow serious questions to be answered by qualified individuals. Maybe then this site will return to the technical strength it once enjoyed. I sure hope that happens!

Maybe it's just the size of this board which has contributed to this issue, and the zealousness it's members have for skiing. I'm not putting anybody down for loving this sport. I hope to be active in it as long as my body allows me to be!

But the ego's, the bickering, and the feuding has to stop. The crap information getting spouted out has to be curtailed. I'm not trying to stop anybody's quest for understanding, but does enlightenment occur when you have to already know the answers just to wade through the morass to find the good information?

Like I have said before- my opinion is not likely going to make me any new friends. Go ahead, call me arrogant or whatever else you like. But the truth is something you can not lie to yourself about!

So, if the boot fits, wear it!
post #9 of 153
Amen, brother Ric (VSP).
post #10 of 153
A few highly qualified individuals have already covered the topic quite adequately, so I'll just provide a few examples of why it's an almost total waste of my time to talk tech here.

Recently a recreational skier from an inner-city area with a whopping 4 years skiing experience "corrected/disputed" something I said here. Well.... guess it was his right to do so.

Just yesterday, another recreational skier disputed something I pointed out on a video that was as clear as a bell.

Then there is the quote below. Two contingents--those who simply want to argue and those who no longer feel the need to learn or move with the times--makes it pointless for me to add my .02 to the Instruction Forum.

My credentials are posted in the MA Qualifications thread, so any of you who want to look at that and tell me I'm wrong here....go ahead....I've gotten used to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post

As a long time member of Epic Ski and a concerned reader as well as an avid skier for over 50 years, it is clear to me there has been a decline in the quality of the Tech and Instruction over the past few years. This decline is mainly caused by the continueing arguments between two learning systems, PMTS and PSIA.

I am self taught, stole some lessons from friends who are instructors and am to the point in my skiing life where I no longer feel I need to learn anything else about the sport I love.
post #11 of 153
I agree with Bob, VailSnopro and UL. Quit stirring the pot. I have read some of the meanest, disrespectful comments about various people's skiing on realskiers. If it is truly all about PMTS to them on their website, they would not have to resort to nasty, sniping comments about others.
Leave them be in their own little world.
post #12 of 153
In reply to vail's post.. maybe a section where anyone can post an initial thread, but only pros and the OP can reply...

Pros meaning people that know what they are talking about and can prove it. With the requisite that you will only post on topics you are knowledgeable about, i.e. someone may be a pro at bumps, steeps, etc.. but may not be a hotshot in the park... They should agree to only reply to technique on what they are a pro at.
post #13 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
You have really gone and done it this time!

And this time I'm gonna jump right in and call BS! Right Now! :

The reasons behind the decline of decent technical content on EpicSki has absolutely nothing to to with your "feud" between PMTS and PSIA proponents!

It has everything to do with the caliber of the half-a$$ed pros posting their respective gospels here, and the naive public willing to listen to them! There are so many of these skiing evangelists, its like trying to find something good to watch on TV on a Sunday morning. And the din of all their combined voices has drowned out the real content. So much of the JUNK I have read on EpicSki over the past several years has been unbelievably laughable! And like I said- there are people on here just dry as sponges, waiting to suck it up! I really don't blame them, because they do not know any better!

Let's face it- there are few pros, less than about a dozen I'd say, that are really on track with the content promoting contemporary ski technique. And most have dropped by the wayside. We have also had people who ARE EXPERTS in their fields, such as Physicsman, dp, and others who have, for all intentional purposes, quit posting because competing with the noise took more effort than they wanted to extend. I myself, quit posting for a long time for several reasons, and this was one of the primary ones!
Tragically Ric (and Bob) this is not exclusive to the skiing world. In many of the golf forums where I participate I have seen many nationally recognized teaching professionals, who willingly gave freely of their expertise, drop out because of the internet amateur hacks. There comes a point in time when it isn't worth fighting the battle with those who don't know they don't know and who loses-those that truly seek a better understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Most of the respondents have absolutely no significant training in contemporary technique and the others are just posting to see their post count go up. They are just regurgitating what they heard from some instr that they took a lesson with 2 or more years ago...
Just like so much of the anecdotal information I hear given on a driving range or on the course. SIGH-they haven't got a clue. And on the mountain too. DOUBLE SIGH

Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Again, 97% of the subscribers to the thread will have had no training in analyzing skiing effectively. This is where several PMTS'ers jump in, because they feel they have a handle on some magic moves which are going to not only solve the person's problems, but world hunger as well!
Paraphrasing what Bobby Knight said years ago (whether you like him or not is immaterial); Confidence is bullshit, either you own the skills, possess the fundamental understanding and knowledge or your posing.
post #14 of 153
Also, people need to realize that skiing is not black and white.. it's gray... Just because something seems one way to you, it may seem totally different to someone else.

I love the information I get here, and I am always careful as to who's info I listen to... just being here this short time I start to realize who does and doesn't know what they are talking about.

But, yeah.. my biggest complaint is people believing that there opinion is the right one..... And as far as this whole 'fued'... I like the attitude at TGR... Skiing is about fun... If you are happy with your technique and you are skiing safely, and you have a smile on your face... Your technique is fine.
post #15 of 153
Sweet.........."Skiing Evangelist".........I like that.

Anyway, great posts by all. I like Bob Barnes comments about the supposed approach of PSIA in delivering a tailored progression, but the real attitude of many instructors on the hill is not always that. More often, it's that if you don't ski like an instructor, you're not a good skier.

Why the PMTS callout? Well, again, it's attitude. PMTS takes the bad attitude that some PSIA instructors display, and brings it to a whole new level. Not only do they want you to stick to a specific certain rigid technique/style (which looks like race techique wussyfied), they automaticly dismiss anyone who doesn't conform, and allow no debate.....again, similar to PSIA's problems, but much, much worse.

Why is this bad? Why is this a horrible thing overall for the sport of skiing??? Very simple:

- It takes the fun out of skiing.
- It stifles the progression of the sport.

Two very basic, fundimental concepts that are a major problem for the sport. I feel that both epicski, and TGR forums over the past few years have both been guilty of exhibiting trends in their culture that cause the above problems. I have attempted, through my actions, to act as a foil to counteract these cultural trends. I often use very unusual methods that may be difficult to understand the purpose (which is intentional), but they are always geared towards my ultimate goal - to put more fun into the sport of skiing.

I have looked at the PMTS system (read the online material available on realskiers, not the forum), and see merit in what they are teaching. They are teaching good skiing. But is it the best skiing? No, there is no best skiing, aside from what you decide is the most fun for you. Is it the only "good skiing"? Hell no.

Basicly, what Harb has done with PMTS is take good race carving technique, boil down the mechanics, and create a series of motions, drills and lessons that teach someone to race carve in a specific way (sort of rigid and fruity looking, etc). There are certain aspects to the system that will have broad application to other realms of skiing, but conversely, the system falls far short of addressing everything that could be considered good skiing......and dismisses what it fails to address.

The major thing I took away from the PMTS material was: "Thank you, captain obvious". It's what many good skiers figure out by themselves if they are self aware about what their body is doing while they are skiing. Not having been coached since 1996, I was amazed to find that PMTS captured and named much of what I had found myself, intutively, by just skiing and paying attention to what I was doing. I had some race coaching to help get me pointed in the right direction in the first place, but have mainly figured things out myself, with random feedback from others. I had randomly learned by trial and error what PMTS teaches....however, I have also randomly learned many other things that PMTS does not teach.

I was expecting something revolutionary from PMTS, given their talk, but it's nothing more than common sense, and a subset of skills that someone who can actually ski will have already developed. So, if you can actually ski in first place, chances are that you will be able to ski PMTS automatically, or with minimal effort. However, if you cannot actually ski in the first place, PMTS, as it exists, will not teach you to actually ski.......but it may turn you into a carving robot.

Soooo.....how do you learn to "actually ski"???

Now, I don't know everything, but here is my advice:

- Love the sport.
- Entertain yourself it every time you ski. Bored? Do something different.
- Think about your skiing, when you ski: why, when, how, where, etc.
- Observe the world around you: snow, terrain, the weather, the conditions, etc
- Listen to the other skiers around you, and what they are saying.
- Challenge yourself in one way or another, every time you ski, and challege other people to improve, ski more difficult terrain, etc.
- Thill yourself with the speed, danger, and excitement of the sport.
- Teach others some of what you have learned, with the goal of improving their ski experience.
- Meet other skiers who are better than you, and ski with them.
- Learn constantly about all aspects of the sport.
- Athletic people ski best, so try to stay in shape...technique will only get you so far, you can't actually ski without being in half decent shape.
- Gear up with the best gear you can find...not the most expensive or newest. Learn what works for you, and always look for something better.
- Ski often, since that's really the only way to learn...is by doing. 50+ days a year for several seasons to become an expert, 20+ days to maintain expert status.
- Have fun, because that should be the ultimate goal. You only have one life to live, and if you're not having fun skiing.....well, stop wasting your time and find another sort.

If you do the above things, I can assure you that after several years, you will be able to "actually ski", you will love the sport, and have fun at it.

- Technique? IMHO, largely irrelevant to the above points, but will develop as a result of them. You will develop your own.....it's not that hard to figure out how to pilot a pair of skis down the hill in a very skillful manner if you do the things in the above list.....even better, you may develop a unique technique that may contribute to the progression of the sport. As a beginner, seek a few lessons from a professional or qualified friend, to get you up and moving.

If you want to ski like someone else, get a coach or take some lessons!!!! They will teach you to ski like a racer, mogul skier, instructor, PMTS'r, or whatever they are into........obviously!!!!!!!
post #16 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
You have really gone and done it this time!

And this time I'm gonna jump right in and call BS! Right Now! :


...It has everything to do with the caliber of the half-a$$ed pros posting their respective gospels here, and the naive public willing to listen to them! ...

Let's face it- there are few pros, less than about a dozen I'd say, that are really on track with the content promoting contemporary ski technique. And most have dropped by the wayside.
...eh, some of us may have failed to recognize the skiing of demo team and ESA coaches as very good skiing in the past, VSP, and I can see how they might find this annoying and not be motivated to post; since I called some of that skiing very good skiiing my conscience is clear on that one, though some of the "pros" in this thread may want to recollect a bit. I did see Joe Mammoth in my opinion basically get shouted off the board by very qualified "pros" because he didn't know "the new way" to ski bumps; a while back "Ski Coach" basically quit because of similar static coming from very qualified ski instructors. So who's a "pro" and who's not? Unions always try to monopolize debate...
post #17 of 153
I tend to agree with Bob, Ric, Mike, and the others who have expressed similar opinions on this. Early this season we endeavored to augment folks' posts by adding their credentials to their titles. I went to some work to customize them individually. We got slammed for doing it by a number of folks who saw it as elitist. Perhaps I backed down too quickly. I, for one, liked it.

Similarly, how do we determine whether someone is credentialed appropriately to post in a limited forum? Will I need to call PSIA national, CSIA, NZSIA, PMTS, etc. to make sure that folks have the credentials that they claim? Who will be willing to provide their personal information to me so that I can?

We have thought about turning on reputation support here for a while, but have gotten a lot of negative response to that, as well.

Unfortunately, the answers aren't simple. But, speaking as myself but also in my role as a member of the EpicSki management team and administrator, I would like to see a structure that allows for the quality of the information here to return to the higher signal-to-noise ratio we once enjoyed.
post #18 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Early this season we endeavored to augment folks' posts by adding their credentials to their titles. I went to some work to customize them individually. We got slammed for doing it by a number of folks who saw it as elitist. Perhaps I backed down too quickly. I, for one, liked it.
I think its a good idea and I don't have any creds to display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
We have thought about turning on reputation support here for a while, but have gotten a lot of negative response to that, as well.
I like this idea because the community decides where the best info is coming from.
post #19 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
The reasons behind the decline of decent technical content on EpicSki ...<snip>...has everything to do with the caliber of the half-a$$ed pros posting their respective gospels here, and the naive public willing to listen to them! There are so many of these skiing evangelists, its like trying to find something good to watch on TV on a Sunday morning. And the din of all their combined voices has drowned out the real content. So much of the JUNK I have read on EpicSki over the past several years has been unbelievably laughable!

<snip>

So, if the boot fits, wear it!
Some of us who have attempted to be straightforward, diplomatic, clear, precise, accurate, etc., may not have been as skilled in our posts as we had thought. Others, of course, may not care, and may enjoy creating an uproar.

I am willing to stand up and ask, for the record, just how crappy my own posts have been, and whether I should shut up and crawl back into my hole. Unlike some, I do care whether or not my so-called "contributions" are actually worthwhile. If they are not, and I have, instead, contributed to the decline in technical quality in this forum, it is time for me to make sure that my relatively low post count in this forum does not increase. I do not want to be one of the "half-a$$ed pros" posting junk on EpicSki!

FWIW, my credentials appear in the MA Qualifications thread. Of course, I could be lying.

I read EpicSki because, unlike those who are sure they know it all, I still have a great deal to learn about skiing. If my posts are judged ignorant and/or offensive, so be it. I'll still lurk and attempt to learn.

If others are willing to stand up to the same evaluation and respond appropriately, perhaps we could do something about the decline in technical quality. But perhaps not. In an open forum, there will always be those who think they know more than they really do, and others who just like to make noise.
post #20 of 153
jhc, for whatever it's worth, I really appreciate your contributions here.

Of course, I wonder if I'm one of the ones who has lowered the quality here.
post #21 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Of course, I wonder if I'm one of the ones who has lowered the quality here.
I think (IMHO) that's a valid question for each of us to ask.

We each need to take responsibility for what we post here. ("Responsibility." What a concept in the anonymous world of the Internet.)

Does my post have a positive value? Does it elevate the discussion, or is it merely confrontational? Does it at least display some humor, or something positive or interesting, if it's not a technical contribution? Do I really know what I think I know? Would it be better to ask for more information before calling someone an idiot? Etc. (Actually, in my case, I'm already painfully aware that I'm an idiot! See signature below.)
post #22 of 153
Quote:
Some of us who have attempted to be straightforward, diplomatic, clear, precise, accurate, etc., may not have been as skilled in our posts as we had thought. Others, of course, may not care, and may enjoy creating an uproar.

I am willing to stand up and ask, for the record, just how crappy my own posts have been, and whether I should shut up and crawl back into my hole. Unlike some, I do care whether or not my so-called "contributions" are actually worthwhile. If they are not, and I have, instead, contributed to the decline in technical quality in this forum, it is time for me to make sure that my relatively low post count in this forum does not increase. I do not want to be one of the "half-a$$ed pros" posting junk on EpicSki!

FWIW, my credentials appear in the MA Qualifications thread. Of course, I could be lying.

I read EpicSki because, unlike those who are sure they know it all, I still have a great deal to learn about skiing. If my posts are judged ignorant and/or offensive, so be it. I'll still lurk and attempt to learn.

If others are willing to stand up to the same evaluation and respond appropriately, perhaps we could do something about the decline in technical quality. But perhaps not. In an open forum, there will always be those who think they know more than they really do, and others who just like to make noise.
You raise great questions, Jhcooley. I too appreciate and enjoy your posts, as well as many others who may lack high level "credentials." I've always said that credentials don't necessarily make someone right, nor does lack of credentials alone make someone wrong.

Perhaps the key is simply an approval process of some kind for posters in some threads. Part of the approval is some real, verifiable information about yourself, to eliminate the shroud of anonymity that may cause much of the problem. It should include credentials, or the lack of credentials, just so there's no question, but I think we could lose a lot of great stuff by excluding posters without "sufficient" credentials.

Highway Star, for example--I do enjoy your posts and your attitude. Don't back down!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #23 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
You raise great questions, Jhcooley. I too appreciate and enjoy your posts, as well as many others who may lack high level "credentials." I've always said that credentials don't necessarily make someone right, nor does lack of credentials alone make someone wrong.

Perhaps the key is simply an approval process of some kind for posters in some threads. Part of the approval is some real, verifiable information about yourself, to eliminate the shroud of anonymity that may cause much of the problem. It should include credentials, or the lack of credentials, just so there's no question, but I think we could lose a lot of great stuff by excluding posters without "sufficient" credentials.

Highway Star, for example--I do enjoy your posts and your attitude. Don't back down!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
Thanks Bob.....

I see everyone else left their 10 foot poles at home today.....snicker....
post #24 of 153
No 10 foot pole needed--I'd ski with you any day.

The advice in your post above is as good as it gets:

Quote:
Now, I don't know everything, but here is my advice:

- Love the sport.
- Entertain yourself it every time you ski. Bored? Do something different.
- Think about your skiing, when you ski: why, when, how, where, etc.
- Observe the world around you: snow, terrain, the weather, the conditions, etc
- Listen to the other skiers around you, and what they are saying.
- Challenge yourself in one way or another, every time you ski, and challege other people to improve, ski more difficult terrain, etc.
- Thrill yourself with the speed, danger, and excitement of the sport.
- Teach others some of what you have learned, with the goal of improving their ski experience.
- Meet other skiers who are better than you, and ski with them.
- Learn constantly about all aspects of the sport.
- Athletic people ski best, so try to stay in shape...technique will only get you so far, you can't actually ski without being in half decent shape.
- Gear up with the best gear you can find...not the most expensive or newest. Learn what works for you, and always look for something better.
- Ski often, since that's really the only way to learn...is by doing. 50+ days a year for several seasons to become an expert, 20+ days to maintain expert status.
- Have fun, because that should be the ultimate goal. You only have one life to live, and if you're not having fun skiing.....well, stop wasting your time and find another sort.

If you do the above things, I can assure you that after several years, you will be able to "actually ski", you will love the sport, and have fun at it.
Thanks!

Best regards,
Bob
post #25 of 153
I am here to post in this very important thread...

Here's a new idea.....

I went skiing today. It was fun. I didn't keep score. Some runs I ski'd good, some runs I ski'd not so good....I ski'd with 2 buds I made on epicski, I think they had fun too. They did appear to be smiling a lot. We didn't talk technique tho 2 of us are/were ski instructors. Technique talk is boring, I prefer skiing personally.

The good skiing was funner, but the bad skiing was better than work, which isn't fun. I like pink floyd a lot better than technique talk, I like my strats and my les paul a lot better too. They are really fun.

I'll keep score on the tennis court.

HS=

That's all I got today:
post #26 of 153
Never mind the differences between teaching methods -- it bothers me when there is a "gap" between instructors and everyone else here, because it doesn't have to be that way. Credentials, blah. When I taught at the college level, my credentials were merely resume material to get me considered for the job. What made me a good teacher (if I can forgo modesty for one sentence) was that I was friendly to students, always tried to make them comfortable, I listened to them and tried to understand their point of view (even if it was different or wrong), and I tried to make the learning experience exciting, fun, and rewarding for all of us. When you teach, the focus should be on the teaching experience. Your background and qualifications merely get you there.

It seems to me that a lot of instructors have lost sight of the reason they are instructing and instead talk about credentials or organizational/method approaches. Who cares what school you follow, or what association you belong to? It's how you apply your experience and knowledge, and engage your students (or audience here) that matters. As a skier, I don't care if you are PMTS or PSIA, or neither -- if you can help improve my skiing, help me think, or help me learn something, I will be appreciative. Frankly, instructors that don't have the time/patience to deal with the general audience here shouldn't be participating. It's the wild internet, for good and for bad. If it's frustrating or takes too much time/effort, you can probably put your efforts to better use elsewhere. I myself have been flummoxed when a topic crosses into my field of expertise and goes wildly astray (with apparently credentialed people just as guilty as the rest, BTW), so I understand the frustration, but I still think it's important to contribute and try to steer the discussion in the right direction in a professional/kind way if I can.

Lest I come across as wholly critical, there are many wonderful ski instructors, experts, and hackers here and I thoroughly appreciate your time and efforts, and enjoy reading your contributions. I think you folks will know who you are. I just can't say I have paid a lot of attention to your credentials or background! It's usually quite apparent who is qualified in the true sense, just by the way they carry themselves and communicate/interact with the audience.

--Craig
post #27 of 153
I'll throw in my 2 cents as well,

bob, well thought out and conveyed info in your first post. it's quite diplomatic, especially with the personal nature of the latest attack.

I've posted for the first time ever on the pmts thread with this latest fued escalation, "who benefits from this adversarial attitude?" "why can't we all just get along.

Anyway, I just thought I'd throw my vote in with VSP, BB and others on things that could be better here. I've been back this year since I'm teaching a bit again, the office is slow and I enjoy the thought provoking threads I've found here in the past. sometimes I contribute, sometimes not, but I enjoy the distraction...

cheers,
holiday
post #28 of 153
hrstrat57, every time I see threads where there's arguing about teaching methods, I just think of what's in your signature...sums it all up for me.
post #29 of 153
hammer, you got it right, hrstrat walks the walk, or should I say skis the skis, and talks the talk, or I should say, talks on the lift only.
post #30 of 153
With regard to the internet experts abounding (even when those who are trained can see right though the BS)...don't expect it to get any better. Yes, it is also in golf and as an MD, I have people who want to argue with me because they spent 1-2hrs on the internet. What makes it even more amazing is when I explain that I have seen 2,000 patients a year for 20yrs and that I am required to study a minimum of 50hrs per year and they stand fast! Somehow I must have missed what they picked up on the internet.

I don't know what it is that causes this phenomenon, but it isn't going away.

I've been on both sites, have benefited from both. I do think as a relatively new learner that the PMTS people have a lot to offer. I wish that in general we had a greater capacity to really listen to one another. Seems like as a society we feel drawn to being polarized, with sides having a hard time giving each other credit when right, and humility when we are wrong.

my 2 cents, I have rambled longer than intended.

pbartski
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