EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › EpicSki Community › Getting Together, Gatherings and Let's Go › Realskiers/PMTS/HH/SCSA....CALLING YOU OUT for a SKI-OFF!
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Realskiers/PMTS/HH/SCSA....CALLING YOU OUT for a SKI-OFF! - Page 11

post #301 of 323
Nice and usefull recap. Those things tend to get blurry after a while.

post #302 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
Gee, I wonder what the goons will think of this?
Lars, I told you to stop calling me a goon! ::
post #303 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
EpicSki is a supposedly open forum policed by a bunch of infantile goons incapable of mature argument.
If you want to discuss, fine, there will be no arguements.

I really do not think anyone here has said Harald is NOT a good skier, but we have seen an intollerance from Harald for other peoples ability to ski. From what I have seen from Haralds and other PMTS'ers is that there is only ONE way to ski, the PMTS way. I have read Harald completely diss some world class teachers, IMHO, in sales101, you build yourself up, not knock your competition down. To be that rigid in ones thinking is very narrow minded. I don't think anyone here has disdain for PMTS, but more for some of the people that are the face of the system. There are too many ways to ski "good", PMTS is not the ONLY way.
post #304 of 323
Think of PMTS as "centre-line". There is only one "centre-line".

Blend the skills that make up that centre-line using different DIRT, and you'll get the rest. That includes skidded, pivotted turns.

Life on the slopes is too short not to explore this technique. It has very valuable components. Learning it will change your skiing - for the better.
post #305 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Life on the slopes is too short not to explore this technique. It has very valuable components. Learning it will change your skiing - for the better.
I agree 100%, I want to learn first hand what PMTS is all about. More tools in the box, the better.
post #306 of 323
I am not an instructor. I have skied for a long time. I own and have read Harb's books. I have found that the PMTS essentials/system has improved my skiing. I also have found that it helps to have other skills such as rotary abilities to blend with the carving.

I find Harb's criticism of the PSIA a bit much. However, I suspect that it is the only way he has found to differentiate himself from the PSIA, which has a monopoly on ski instruction in the USA.

HS' attitude I find more annoying. At least Harb has the credentials to back his talk. I find his posts immature and his call out is absurd.

To be the best skier on the mountain on a given day depends on a number of factors. First and foremost, are skiing skills and skiing ability. Some people have the natural ability to be better skiers than others. As an analogy, I would suspect that a person could do an MA on Michael Jordan and come up with a list of faults. However, on the floor, his ability overcomes some technical flaws and he excelled.

There are better skiers than Harb(he is 50 plus years old) as there are better skiers than the D-teamers. However, their skiing is superb. HS skiing is above average.

So lets say that we had a real callout. Not an prideful kid calling out a ski pro, but a D-Teamer against Harb. Assuming that skiing can be judged objectively, what conclusion can be drawn from any result? None in my opinion. If Harb loses, is it due to a PMTS or is it due to a lack of natural ability, or having a bad day, or poor judging, or ... Same can be said if Harb wins.

And to put things into perspective, I doubt if more than 0.00001% of skiers care.
post #307 of 323
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fischermh View Post
I am not an instructor. I have skied for a long time. I own and have read Harb's books. I have found that the PMTS essentials/system has improved my skiing. I also have found that it helps to have other skills such as rotary abilities to blend with the carving.

I find Harb's criticism of the PSIA a bit much. However, I suspect that it is the only way he has found to differentiate himself from the PSIA, which has a monopoly on ski instruction in the USA.

HS' attitude I find more annoying. At least Harb has the credentials to back his talk. I find his posts immature and his call out is absurd.

To be the best skier on the mountain on a given day depends on a number of factors. First and foremost, are skiing skills and skiing ability. Some people have the natural ability to be better skiers than others. As an analogy, I would suspect that a person could do an MA on Michael Jordan and come up with a list of faults. However, on the floor, his ability overcomes some technical flaws and he excelled.

There are better skiers than Harb(he is 50 plus years old) as there are better skiers than the D-teamers. However, their skiing is superb. HS skiing is above average.

So lets say that we had a real callout. Not an prideful kid calling out a ski pro, but a D-Teamer against Harb. Assuming that skiing can be judged objectively, what conclusion can be drawn from any result? None in my opinion. If Harb loses, is it due to a PMTS or is it due to a lack of natural ability, or having a bad day, or poor judging, or ... Same can be said if Harb wins.

And to put things into perspective, I doubt if more than 0.00001% of skiers care.
Hummmmmmm......if someone from epicski on the west coast wants to conduct a ski-off against PMTS, that would be great. It doesn't have to be me doing the sking......I just thought I would be an interesting case since I haven't had any formal coaching in 10+ years and have no ties to the PSIA or any other teaching system.
post #308 of 323
fisch, my thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better.
post #309 of 323
Actually, a few years ago some of us had an idea that we called Quest for the Best, that involved a ski-off between PMTS and some of the other "boutique" camps and the PSIA D-Team--not a ski-off of the coaches but a ski-off of their intermediate-level students after four days of instruction. It almost got off the ground!

There was a lot of interest from the program leaders. The project didn't fly because we could not get adequate corporate sponsorship.
post #310 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
EpicSki is a supposedly open forum policed by a bunch of infantile goons incapable of mature argument.
Thanks Clayton. That's the nicest thing I've been called all week. Epic is an open forum that is moderated to help keep conversations focused on ideas vs people. We occasionally let borderline personal attacks slide in attempts to not over moderate. If you feel that you've been attacked, please use the red triangle in the upper right corner to report a post.

For the record, there have been a few posts on Epic deriding HH's skiing ability. If you have an opinion that the average 4 year old can ski better than HH, you are welcome to express that opinion on Epic. The Epic moderators are obligated to leave such opinions alone and in fact defend such opinion makers from personal attacks no matter what our personal judgments about the topic may be. Occasionally, moderators or other posters may see fit to express different opinions on the topic, without personal attacks. It is up to Epic readers to consider the source when evaluating opinions that are expressed on this site and make their own judgments.
post #311 of 323
Head "goon" here, Clayton... I thought I'd quote both you and therusty, again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
EpicSki is a supposedly open forum policed by a bunch of infantile goons incapable of mature argument.
Thanks Clayton. That's the nicest thing I've been called all week. Epic is an open forum that is moderated to help keep conversations focused on ideas vs people. We occasionally let borderline personal attacks slide in attempts to not over moderate. If you feel that you've been attacked, please use the red triangle in the upper right corner to report a post.

For the record, there have been a few posts on Epic deriding HH's skiing ability. If you have an opinion that the average 4 year old can ski better than HH, you are welcome to express that opinion on Epic. The Epic moderators are obligated to leave such opinions alone and in fact defend such opinion makers from personal attacks no matter what our personal judgments about the topic may be. Occasionally, moderators or other posters may see fit to express different opinions on the topic, without personal attacks. It is up to Epic readers to consider the source when evaluating opinions that are expressed on this site and make their own judgments.
Since you've been gone for a while, Clayton, you may want to know that there is now a cadre of about a dozen people (listed on this page with the other administration folks) who have taken on the moderation of EpicSki. I am grateful for the effort they put in here voluntarily, and as you've seen, calling them goons was an insult to them. It was the first insult in your parts of this thread, BTW.

As therusty noted, you are free to report any post that you feel is a direct personal attack. Until you called me a goon (along with the other moderators), I didn't see directly personal attacks in your dialog here.

We moderate under the policy that, "He who moderates least moderates best." We will take action against violations of the EpicSki Terms and Posting Guidelines (which you might want to review, given your absence). So, we do take action against personal attacks, and I have done so on topics related to PMTS and Harald Harb of late (by removing insults posted here directed at Harald).

If you want homogeneity, enjoy Harald's forum. If you are willing to support your opinions with facts and expertise, enjoy your time here. They are different, but there are no "goons" here. And I'll ask you to abide by the Terms when referring to the moderators as well as all other members.

Thanks.
post #312 of 323
Good posts by Fischer and SSH.

This thread is silly, is it not?
post #313 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Good posts by Fischer and SSH.
Thanks, Max. When are you out here, again? PM me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This thread is silly, is it not?
I'm pretty sure that's the intent. It's like having debates about OSPF v. EIGRP during an Interop geekfest. It serves its purposes, tho.
post #314 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
This thread is silly, is it not?
Silly -- heck yeah! But it sure is entertaining!
post #315 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Thanks Clayton. That's the nicest thing I've been called all week. Epic is an open forum that is moderated to help keep conversations focused on ideas vs people. We occasionally let borderline personal attacks slide in attempts to not over moderate. If you feel that you've been attacked, please use the red triangle in the upper right corner to report a post.
Rusty,

Actually, I wasn't referring to the moderators, but rather individuals who jump all over people when they post something concerning PMTS. In honesty I posted expecting to be jumped on, but it seems that in fact things are a bit more civil here than they were in the past. I overreacted and got a bit testy and for that I apolgize. I am going to give the place a chance again. Sorry for any offense.
post #316 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
Rusty,

Actually, I wasn't referring to the moderators, but rather individuals who jump all over people when they post something concerning PMTS. In honesty I posted expecting to be jumped on, but it seems that in fact things are a bit more civil here than they were in the past. I overreacted and got a bit testy and for that I apolgize. I am going to give the place a chance again. Sorry for any offense.
Well welcome back Don!
post #317 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
More tools in the box, the better.
he he he he....he he....
post #318 of 323
Here's an idea: Gather the last few Warren Miller movies and TGR movies plus footage from WC races and IFSA events from the last couple years. Do a movement analysis. Something tells me you're going to see a variety of different techniques used by the world's best skiers. (If they aren't the world's best skiers, who are the best? Besides, of course, HS.)
post #319 of 323
As Yogi Berra would say: "Its deja vu all over again". In the late 1960s most PSIA instructors denounced a certain French skier as "doing everything wrong". After he won three gold medals in the 1968 Winter Olympics he was still "doing everything wrong". To some people, if you are not skiing exactly as they think you should, to the millimeter, you are "doing everything wrong". To be fair, I ignore them all.

I suggest that skiers and instructors take to heart the saying "The one of you who is faultless shall throw the first stone".
post #320 of 323
According to Harb, most of the US Ski Team is doing everything wrong, and they are still winning too. I guess it works both ways.
post #321 of 323
per HH over at RealSkiers.......jbotti and Max are here in the hood......wonder if they will turn up at LG III?

SCSA was out with us yesterday and whipped us into shape. A few of us can ski at his speed...we just all seem to run out of breath!
post #322 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by philippeR View Post
Nice and usefull recap. Those things tend to get blurry after a while.

Anyone else catch the article about the genetic predisposition the McCoys seem to have regarding their tempers???
post #323 of 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCS View Post
Anyone else catch the article about the genetic predisposition the McCoys seem to have regarding their tempers???
I saw the two line summary on the elevator at work, seems an intresting concept.
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