Realskiers/PMTS/HH/SCSA....CALLING YOU OUT for a SKI-OFF! - Page 10

I am sure they are brilliant skiers, but IMHO there is more than one way to ski brillantly, Harald is the first to deny that. It is unfortunate.

Well, that should hardly come as a surprise since Harald makes his living from a teaching technique that he developed, right? He sells a good product and I personally don't see a problem with that. I have attended two of his camps and my skiing improved tremendously. Got what I paid for. Also never heard Harald say a negative thing about any other teaching system.

What do you do, Plug your ears and close your eyes?

Your right. Tell you what, come on out to Telluride. You can awe the locals with your daring and intellect. I know a couple of 14 year old girls who would love to own you.

Are you calling me a liar? I forgot about how tolerant EpicSki is. Not like the fascists over at RealSkiers..... Sheeez.

I think clayton is a HS alias. Mods can you confirm?

Well if the Rich is Messer I have a story to tell you Clayton. Rich was my certification precourse conductor @ 1977 sometime (when he was a PSIA Examiner). He paired our group up to ski bumps with a partner. I was the strongest skier in the group and coaching freestyle at the time and we paired up. When it was my turn to lead I heard quietly behind me "don't embarras me".

I did not comply.

I also ski at Loveland once in awhile and have the advantage of "stealth" I know who Harald is....but he doesn't know me.

If things work out...I'll put all this "who's better" crap to rest a little later this season.

More later....keep watching...and btw, so far no-one is showing to ski with HS.

From my point of view, SCSA is the only one willing to come out and ski with the folks from Epic....for that he gains my respect.

Phil,

From the responses of people here on Epic over the years, I get the impression that, in person (face-to-face), Harald is actually a nice guy and doesn't make disparaging comments about PSIA or "traditional teaching systems" like he does in print. Too bad he can't maintain that personality/self control all the time.

I was so bummed that we can't benefit, in yurp, of the PMTS and become RealSkiers. I felt so inadequate, being a FalseSkier for so many years.
Then, I had a look at The Harbl website.

Wow ! There are licensed PMTS instructors in europe too !

Now, I need to choose between Belgium and the Netherlands.

That will be gnar.

I'm sure the moderators will point it out if HH starts posting here under aliases again. In the meantime, I think it would be helpful not to make these kinds of accusations at people just because they say complementary things about Harald or PMTS. I think in this case its rather unlikely. Harald's online writing has certain ... unique qualities.

Anyway, I can third what Clayton and JohnH say above. In person Harald is charming, reasonable, and never says anything derogatory about other teaching systems unless asked outright.

I ski with Slider whenever I can and I've skied with Newfydog as well. Oh, and I skied a bit with Dawgcatching. But wait, I think I'm one of the folks from Epic so I guess I ski with someone from Epic every time I hit the hill.

I recognized HH several years ago in the Loveland cafeteria sitting at a table with Diana. Before I left, I went over and said hello and told him I had his book and greatly enjoyed it. He was very personable and gracious. He also seemed to exude great enthusiasm and energy. He wanted to show me his new Dalbello boots that he had. He got a big kick out of the fact I had a pair too. So my one and only encounter would support what others have indicated regarding their encounters with HH.

No doubt he is "testy" on his forum. I think it might stem from two things. The first is his instruction is his livelihood not a hobby. The other thing is I've experienced with people before in written correspondence a very aggressive combative "tone" that in person doesn't come across that way.

I misread that didn't I? Ho-hum. Stupid me ....

HH does seem like a real "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" type of character. It's just mind-boggling that anybody Google-ing information on PMTS will probably find the RealSkiers site and they'll discover his maniacal ravings there. How many potential customers is he losing by not being polite and gracious there as well?

I met SCSA at a Let's Go Colorado gathering once. He was much the same way -- raving lunatic on-line, nice guy in person. Go figure.

Actually realskiers PMTS forum is bizarrely well-hidden. Its not mentioned in the books, and doesn't even get mentioned at most PMTS camps (unless SCSA shows up). I'd guess that even some of the coaches don't even know it exists. The easiest way by far for the average PMTS skier to find it is via EpicSki which is far higher on the google list for obvious search terms. Ironic that, isn't it?

I don't know if this is just another aspect of HH's rather random public relations, or if its a deliberate attempt by someone to keep the crazier ramblings of Harald and his most enthusiastic followers out of the public view.

Heh, and some of us are raving lunatics both on line and in person. Go figure. :0

Excellent point Max. I consider you to be PMTS's greatest supporter here. You defend PMTS with grace, correct when needed and try to explain what it's all about. You were kind enough to answer my PM about gaining specific info about PMTS quickly and accurately. Nice to have another point of view other than the norm here WITHOUT all the snowballs (that would be mud slinging).

Don't forget to multiply by the number of personalities one may think they have! (both online and in persons: )

About once a year I like to come back and see if maybe, just maybe I can post and mention the ski instruction I prefer without being immediately insulted by someone. Well, one post and I have been called a liar and been accused of posing as someone I'm not.

It kills me to read the constant carping about how uncivil the PMTS forum is. THIS place is about as hostile as can be if you don't happen to agree with everyone else here. The big difference of course is that the PMTS forum is heavily moderated, and explicitly a forum devoted to discussing PMTS technique.

EpicSki is a supposedly open forum policed by a bunch of infantile goons incapable of mature argument.

I look forward to the day when I can mention PMTS here without being jumped.

I know....HH is a bad man, blah, blah. blah.... I'm not HH. Duh.

See you in a year.

Uncle Louie,

I think it's great that you outskied Rich 30 years ago. Shortly after you captured the Kaiser in WW1 no doubt? Pathetic attempt at character assassination.

I stand firmly behind my previous assessment. I also wait with baited breath your conquering of HH. Note I won't be holding my breath.

Kevin,

My first post on any ski forum was here on Epic. I asked a simple question? Had anyone been to a PMTS or Epic ski camp, and could they give me some feedback on them? For this blasphemy I received a bunch of smart ass remarks and got to read countless posts smearing Harald Harb and PMTS. (Nolo being a very gracious exception).

I promptly signed up for a PMTS camp as the idea of having anything to do with Epic seemed less than inviting at that point. Everyone I met at the PMTS camp including Harald, Rich and Diana were professional, enthusiastic and generally just a pleasure to be around. There were no snide coments being made about other teaching systems; no insults being thrown around, just a bunch of people very serious about teaching skiing. I immediately signed up for the next years camp, and would have gone again this year if circumstances would have allowed. I have nothing against PSIA or any other teaching method for that matter. I have never made a negative comment on this board about same.

PMTS Has done wonders for my skiing. It makes sense, it works and I
could not be more impressed with the organization called PMTS or it's employees. Because of that fact, I am not free to post on this forum without being insulted, bullied and otherwise harassed. This puts Epic in a very bad light from my perspective, and makes any criticism of HH or PMTS from these quarters seem a bit weak.

Ever occur to any of you that only "a raving lunatic" as you put it, would hang out here and have abuse piled on them?

Clayton

Clayton- first, I am happy that you've discovered a ski-teaching system that works for you. ESA camps work for me, PMTS camps work for you. It all comes down to sliding on snow.

I've accepted that Harald has a remarkably different real-life personality then his postings indicate. Why he chooses to post on Real Skiers in such a venomous manner is beyond me, but it is his forum and he is free to do as he wishes. He's personally alienated me from ever wanting to attend a PMTS camp with his rants.

I'm not sure why you say you're insulted, bullied and otherwise harassed due to your PMTS allegiances. Max501 posts here often; he makes no secret of his PMTS allegiances. I personally think he's a valued member of this community and I enjoy reading his posts.

You must remember that you are one of the few people here who have ever had face-to-face dealings with Harald. You made a comment about never having heard Harald say something bad about PSIA, which PhilT expressed disbelief over. Reading virtually any thread on RealSkiers would show that Harald constantly has something bad to say about PSIA, and RealSkiers is the only way most Epic members know anything about Harald. So your post concerning Harald's attitude towards PSIA flies in the face of everything most people here know about Harald; you'd have to expect some kind of incredulity being sent your way.

Maybe my reading comprehension skills need some work, but the only "abusive" post I see is where PhilT wondered if you were a HS alias. I don't really consider one post to be "piling on". This whole thread, if you care to look at Highway Star's post that started it all, is in response to the RealSkier's thread where SCSA gave his movement analysis opinions of the ESA-Aspen montage. That RealSkiers thread turned into five pages of piling on.

Kevin,

Point taken. I'll hang out a awhile and see how things go this time.

Clayton

Clayton,

Ever tried to show up on the realskiers forum and question anything related to PMTS? They will jump on you hard. Of course, if you are an a-hole you will be banned, but if you show real interest eventually PMTS people realize that you are genuine about your questions and interest to learn something different.

Look at Max_501. He is clearly a PMTS skier/student and he gets more respect here than most.

TomB,

Fair enough but I think it is important to note that the PMTS Realskiers Forum is moderated and is devoted to discussions of PMTS technique. It is meant to be an adjunct to PMTS instruction, not a free for all like TGR and at times, Epic.

Time for me to Chime in!
Like U.L. stated, "From my point of view, SCSA is the only one willing to come out and ski with the folks from Epic....for that he gains my respect."

I 2nd that!
I have Skiied with SCSA,several times this season. The few that want to do a "Ski-Off" You better bring your A-Game along with you Lunch! ( Your going to need both!).
This stuff with the personal attacks from others, here's a clue....
Get over yourself, lifes to short!
As I was told by SCSA, "When I get to the Pearly Gates, I don't want somebody telling me I did'nt get enough Ski days in!"

Gee, I wonder what the goons will think of this?

The following is a quote from the RealSkiers site by Ourayite.

I guess I consider myself exiting intermediate status and moving slowly, but inexorably towards advanced. I will ski anything inbounds at Telluride, but not always well. I ski faster than 80% of the skiers I know. I crash because I push myself to the edge of my abilities.

I really gauge my progess as it relates to mastering PMTS technique, as it is my definition of technically correct, beautiful skiing. I have done two All Mountain camps and think I have begun to get a grasp on the fundamentals. Started really doing the Hi-C turns at this camp and have moments where it all comes together on the groomed. Things still come apart for me in the bumps and steep crud. I am at the stage where I am trying to get everything working at the SAME time.

The SuperShapes just made edging easier. The feedback from the ski is there. You tip them, they engage.

How's that? That was kind a therapeutic....

Now so I'm not accused of telling a lie....Clayton.....this is you isn't it.

Here is the rub as I see it here. You and a few other PMTS followers have chosen to post here at Epic with your views that PMTS works so well for you and others. No question that what HH has produced works and I use quite a bit of what he preaches in my skiing, but don't limit myself to the movement patterns of PMTS.

SCSA saw fit to do an MA on some of the top Coaches/Instructors in the United States, who also work as EpicSki coaches, and posted it here via Hobbit. Hobbit is a PMTS moderator is he not? SCSA to the best of my knowledge has never professionally taught skiing. It looks like you haven't either. Yet on and on you guys go preaching what good skiing is. HighwayStar has collectivly called you out on it.

TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR...to date (for those of you keeping score) mouths are running way ahead of actions. Why not jump outside and go skiing with HS or trip up to Summit County during the "Let's Go Colorado" and show us your stuff.....THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

Perhaps you might take a page from Max501 and or SCSA. Max posts here with dignity and tries to inform us about PMTS and defends himself with good and valid counter point to those who argue with him here. SCSA gets out and shows what he's got. No need for him to spew crap here (he can't as banned anyway, but still skis with many from Epic). He can ski and we can all see that.

My point with regard to Rich (as well as Harald and Diana) is that there ARE people who can outski all of them. Of course no one can "out PMTS" Harald. That's the advantage of creating a system that matches your own skiing.

Bottom line.....If you are going to go so strong posting here on the challange thread....Just step outside.

...and your "goon" posted a highly inflamatory post here from someone who was banned from posting here.

Take your own arguement here back to PMTS