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Excessive Counter and Tip Lead and "Scissoring" at Trans.

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
I've searched the forum for some ideas on breaking the habits in the title. I have a skier who has these habits deeply ingrained. The turns are executed with extreme tip lead and counter, transition is a move over the skis but with scissoring movement of the feet as well. And then back into a symmetrical excessive over counter and tip lead position from which the turn is parked and ridden until the next quick scissor movement into the next parked and ridden over-countered turn, etc....

I've worked on some single turn drills where we just go straight down the fall-line and into a turn and pull the inside foot back and ride all the way through till were going uphill; then turn around and do the same on the other side.

I've done some garlands where the traverse is done with the foot pulled back and then the skies are released and allowed to drift and move toward the fall-line where again the skis are edged with an emphasis on keeping minimal tip lead with the uphill foot pulled back.

I've done some turns where, like the garlands, the skis are allowed to drift into the fall-line and then, similar to the first drill above, go from moving straight down the fall-line into the turn with the foot pulled back.

When we start to link turns, the old habit comes back which tells me I need to work on transition and initiation, all the while trying to ingrain middle and bottom of the turn.

Single footed skiing on both sides? Transition drills? What have some of you done to deal with this ingrained flaw.

ST
post #2 of 13
Hmmm... interesting...

The first drill that came to mind for me was RR tracks from flat green to blue. Starting on green with very subtle feet/ankle movements to create the RR track turns. Then, while continuing the movements to ski to a steeper pitch that requires more turn dynamics but maintaining the same movement types.

A second possibility would be tele turns (on alpine gear). Pull back the inside foot at transition and turn.

Another possibility would be a drill that created awareness of the knees. Perhaps hands-on-knees or poles-across-knees or even outside hand touching boot top. Just something to create awareness of when they move fore/aft with respect to each other.

I look forward to reading what the more experienced folks here have to add...
post #3 of 13
One other thought... what does your student think s/he is doing? Why are they doing it? What sensations are they seeking?

Consider the diamond and see if you can move him/her into another corner. Listen to the sound of transition and the turn? Feel the sensation of the edges? Determine to hold that foot back? Create a clean arc?
post #4 of 13
Tracer turns.
post #5 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
Tracer turns.
Care to describe them, Kneale?
post #6 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
Tracer turns.
Ditto. Tracer turns = turns with the majority of weight on one foot. Be it right or left, whatever. One footed skiing with both feet on the snow. I look for flexion in the ankle when the weighted ski becomes the inside ski. If he does that you will see less tip-lead.
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Hmmm... interesting...

The first drill that came to mind for me was RR tracks from flat green to blue. Starting on green with very subtle feet/ankle movements to create the RR track turns. Then, while continuing the movements to ski to a steeper pitch that requires more turn dynamics but maintaining the same movement types.

A second possibility would be tele turns (on alpine gear). Pull back the inside foot at transition and turn.

Another possibility would be a drill that created awareness of the knees. Perhaps hands-on-knees or poles-across-knees or even outside hand touching boot top. Just something to create awareness of when they move fore/aft with respect to each other.

I look forward to reading what the more experienced folks here have to add...

Thanks ssh. I tried sort of a combination of the two: RR & hands on knees in that I had the skier (heretofor "her") ski cowboy turns on quite flat terrain. My thinking was that if the feet were well separated and the legs were in a more squatted position it would be harder into articulate in the position I am trying to eliminate. But to my amazement she would rise a bit and repeat the old position. I think the hands on the knees might help; thanks.

So on to your comment on awareness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
One other thought... what does your student think s/he is doing? Why are they doing it? What sensations are they seeking?
I was suprised by the level of unawareness, but as of yet I'm not sure if it may be a bit of denial. The response I got after I shook my head and said no you're still doing it was: "I was?" I am dealing with a second year J3 who needs to fix this before she can get anymore out of her skiing. So she's at the age where she's just becoming aware of what she is really doing. She missed a free skiing video session I had done earlier in the season, so as of now I have nothing to show her except my copy of her movement.

As far as sensation is concerned, I have worked a little with other skiers at this level who had also fallen into this trap. This time I have taken on completely fixing one. When working with younger kids I watch for this and try to nip it in the bud. I think it is feels very "slick" to the kids that do this. It's a development issue where the kids can feel the power of a turn but they haven't developed real for/aft and lateral balance and they don't have a real functional transition. But the position they have fallen into is not a really powerful position for the next step where they need to handle a lot of force and carve clean turns that make huge direction changes and enable them to move way across the hill - all at with fast tempo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
Tracer turns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Ditto. Tracer turns = turns with the majority of weight on one foot. Be it right or left, whatever. One footed skiing with both feet on the snow. I look for flexion in the ankle when the weighted ski becomes the inside ski. If he does that you will see less tip-lead.
I agree that one footed skiing would be a way to go. Skiing on the inside ski and having to balance over it would require having the foot beneath the skier (pulled back). It would also develope the lateral balance that I think is missing. I was thinking that I may have to go one step further and remove a ski because of the awareness issue. But I will start with two skis on.

This is something that has been on the agenda to fix for a while now. I just started the process last Sunday afternoon and I'm about an hour and a half into it.

You all have confirmed my tact and you have given me some variations. I appreciate your input. Thanks.

ST
post #8 of 13
sir turnalot, she needs to develop her rotational awareness and skill parameters. Have her shed her poles and place her hands on her hips. This allows a student to feel with their hands what the pelvis is doing, and actually control what it's doing with the hands. Have her make turns in which she turns her pelvis (with her hands) into the direction of the new turn during the transition, then keeps turning it all the way through the turn. This will quickly eliminate her excess counter and lead,,, and expand her rotational awareness.

Once she's comfortable doing that, return her poles and have her power the rotary pelvis drive with her core (stomach muscles) rather than her hands. This focuses on the core power and control we develop in WAIST STEERING,,, a skill area that is widely ignored in most instructional models.

From there you can go back to hands on hips and work on other rotational positions and movement patterns, and expand her skill base and awareness in this area even further. Once this has been done, later critique will be responded to with immediate sensory understanding and performance modification.
post #9 of 13
Practice turns with no counter - hips and shoulders perpindicular to the length of her skis. Start with large turns on easy terrain and work to shorter turns on steeper terrain. Practice, practice, practice,...

Strart adding counter into the turns a little at a time. Stop increasing counter when it does not improve the turn. This will work best in a course where each turn is the same size.
post #10 of 13
I was about to suggest what JRN just suggested.

If the student is capable, try to get them to develop self-awareness of what they're doing. On easy terrain, ask them to make four turns and describe exactly what they are doing in only their feet and ankles. Make two more turns and have them describe exactly what they are doing with their knees. Two more turns and have them describe what they are doing with their hips. Two more turns and have them describe what they are doing with their shoulders, arms, and hands.

Now, stop all that. Have them just ski with their feet, doing nothing (nothing!) with the body from the knees-up, simply have the hands comfortably out to the sides for natural balancing. Keep the ankles even (no tip lead) and equal pressure on both feet.

When they get away from their old habits, introduce new proper techniques starting with the feet, then the knees, then hips, then shoulders/arms/hands. If the old habits return, have them go back to just skiing with the feet and begin regaining the good new techniques.

Two things are important...look for the cause of the problem, not just the easily visible symptom of the problem. And, sometimes, un-do all they know and rebuild their knowledge. Sometimes adding new drills or procedures on top of old bad habits isn't effective. An example is the skier that uses shoulder and arm rotation to crank their skis around. Drilling in proper arm position is often frustrating, 'cuz the arm action is the symptom of the real problem of not knowing how to turn with the feet. Teach them how to turn using only the feet, then add correct upper body motions to enhance the footwork.


Ken
post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Care to describe them, Kneale?
As Epic notes, Tracers are turns done on one foot in both directions while the other foot just "traces" the same action in the snow. 95-5 weighting on the left foot for both left and right turns, for example. Makes you move the COM across the ski to engage the outside edge of what would be the inside ski. The advantage over "one footed" skiing where you hold one ski off the snow is that the holding action restricts hip movement, making the skier more likely to get the weight over the outside edge by excessive tipping of the upper body into the turn. Leaving the unweighted leg more or less normally long makes it easier to keep the torso upright as it should be.
post #12 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
95-5 weighting on the left foot for both left and right turns, for example.
You meant 97%, right?
post #13 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
sir turnalot, she needs to develop her rotational awareness and skill parameters. Have her shed her poles and place her hands on her hips. This allows a student to feel with their hands what the pelvis is doing, and actually control what it's doing with the hands. Have her make turns in which she turns her pelvis (with her hands) into the direction of the new turn during the transition, then keeps turning it all the way through the turn. This will quickly eliminate her excess counter and lead,,, and expand her rotational awareness.
Thanks that's a great idea for awareness.

ST
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