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changing to 3 degree side bevel

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thinking about my annual stone grind/machine tune this year for the GS skis, considering going to three degrees side (from two). I'm normally fine with the edge grip I get, but every now and then (on extremely icey courses) I'd like a bit more.
Good idea?
I'd still run one degree base bevel.
post #2 of 20
Do it. Do it. Do it. You will love it. Further, for racing recreationally, I would go base .5 or 0.
post #3 of 20
I get a bit confused with these angles and stuff. When side sharpening I set my file holder to 88 which presumably sets the edge at 2. I've never done anything with my base angles and wouldn't know how to...Could someone give point me in the direction of simple explanation on all this and why it is more effective...cheers
post #4 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by saudan's boudoir View Post
Thinking about my annual stone grind/machine tune this year for the GS skis, considering going to three degrees side (from two). I'm normally fine with the edge grip I get, but every now and then (on extremely icey courses) I'd like a bit more.
Good idea?
I'd still run one degree base bevel.
Three works very well for lots of folks. Search the Tuning and Maintenance threads here and you'll find all the tricks of the trade you will need you will need. I'd recommend not letting them set your side bevels when you get the grind. You can do a much better job by hand (on the base bevels too, for that matter) than they are likely to do. I insist that they simply grind them flat, leave the sides alone, and keep the wax off. Then you can set the bevels you want. It may take taping stickies to your skis with big messages on them but it's worth it.
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer256 View Post
Do it. Do it. Do it. You will love it. Further, for racing recreationally, I would go base .5 or 0.
.5 can be good for slalom, but for most skiers a .5 is going to be very demanding.

A .7 on a GS ski. or a true 1 is preferable. I think most folks over bevel their skis and probably have a heavy 1 degree.


Once you go 3 degrees side edge you'll never go back!

Be very careful with base bevel. A small change makes a drastic difference in skiability. On some types of snow a .5 is just way too demanding. Trust me I've tried it. Particularly manmade snow.

A -0- degree base bevel (unless you are Mario Matt or Benni Raich) is ridiculous.

Go try a -0- and get back to me on what you think : :


It also depends on what it is you are trying to accomplish.

Check out this article on base bevel.

http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...0Bevel%202.pdf
post #6 of 20
0.5 is fine. I no longer find it demanding, once I got my skis flat to the snow! The 0.5 it's not forgiving of boot alignment problems at all. If you don't have your skis flat to the snow, forget it, leave the base at 1 degree.
post #7 of 20

Respectfully disagree...

QUOTE: "Be very careful with base bevel. A small change makes a drastic difference in skiability. On some types of snow a .5 is just way too demanding. Trust me I've tried it. Particularly manmade snow.
A -0- degree base bevel (unless you are Mario Matt or Benni Raich) is ridiculous. "

Must respectfully disgree. I am set up on 0 and 3 and very pleased with the results. Yep - can be grabby, but for Rec or league racing here is why I like it...

1. Not much "gliding" in your typical Nastar venue. Lots of turns and "ice" though.

2. 10-20 (male) HCPers (aka semi serious league rats) dont always have the race chops to get the angulation to utilize a 1 degree base. Let them "cheat" a bit with a more acute edge angle and easier "grab." Improvement in HCP is largely about confidence. Skidding down and "icy" (overused and inaccurate term*) course erodes that quickly. Gliding? Let them make some good turns and carry speed INTO the flat before worrying about glide. I have seen lots of "racers" poling across the flats because they bungled the last 2 gates before the flat.

3. Durability? The course is 30 seconds long. How durable do you need it to be?? Switch feet. All set.

So - I say get a 0 and 3 grind. Easy enough to REMOVE some material from your base later if you hate it. (harder to put it back!) No special tool required. Make a wrap or two of masking tape aound the center of a file. Flat file but keep the tape centered on the ski. Old timer told me, two wraps, .5 degree. 4 wraps, 1 degree.

You can also cut down the grabbiness by de-tuning tips and tails a bit.

*Nice firm, FIRM almost chalky base layer snow is not "ice." It is perfect. It is not ice until it is a lovely pale blue and you cannot jam your pole into it without giving yourself tendonitis of the elbow. This is "almost perfect." Drives me nuts after tearing up a course set on "hero snow" and some kook (with a 1 degree base bevel ) comes down and says, "Boy icy!".

Want to get faster on league night? Get a kick butt tune and wait for the course to get "skied off" before taking your run. Not confident? Take your race runs and see if you can sneak in a "fun run" after everyone has gone.
post #8 of 20
On the original question: Go with the 3 side.

A few thoughts of a more random nature:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer256
1. Not much "gliding" in your typical Nastar venue.
I may have missed something, since I can't tell from the original post whether he's asking about Nastar, HCP (whatever that stands for), Masters, or even something entirely different, like free-skiing on firm snow or Nor-Am GS (okay, if he's racing the latter, he wouldn't be asking us for advice).

There's typically a fair amount of gliding in all of these but the first two (I guess), though it of course varies.

Quote:
2. 10-20 (male) HCPers (aka semi serious league rats) dont always have the race chops to get the angulation to utilize a 1 degree base. Let them "cheat" a bit with a more acute edge angle and easier "grab."
There seems to be a general view that those with more skills do better with less bevel, rather than the other way around. I will respectfully suggest (without drawing diagrams of knees and the like) that an extra 1-degree of angulation is minimal, whereas an edge hanging up at turn initiation or an inside edge catching can have a significant effect, such that you might occasionally wind up on your head.

Quote:
3. Durability? The course is 30 seconds long.
It is? What course are we talking about, again?

Anyway, I don't think durability is really an issue with the base bevel. It might be on the side, but not a major one at 3 degrees.

Quote:
Make a wrap or two of masking tape aound the center of a file. Flat file but keep the tape centered on the ski. Old timer told me, two wraps, .5 degree. 4 wraps, 1 degree.
That's probably in the ballpark, though I'd note that if you keep the tape in the center and your ski has any significant sidecut, you'll have more base bevel at the center and less at the ends. If you wanted to vary the bevel, you'd do it the other way around. A little rough calculation tells me that in order to have a one-degree bevel in the center of a 65mm-waisted ski, your tape should be .6mm thick (four wraps? maybe); if the ski is 120mm at the tip, you'd get more like 6/10ths of a degree of bevel there.
post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
A little rough calculation tells me that in order to have a one-degree bevel in the center of a 65mm-waisted ski, your tape should be .6mm thick (four wraps? maybe); if the ski is 120mm at the tip, you'd get more like 6/10ths of a degree of bevel there.
So then you'd need to keep it the same distance from the edge, which might not be so simple. But if you're a little out, does that really matter so much? I mean suppose I wrapped tape also arount the end of my file, so that it made a guide that rubbed on the sidewall of the ski. If it moves 5 mm or so, would you really be able to tell the difference? Say between 0.9 and 1.0 degrees?
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsJohn View Post
I get a bit confused with these angles and stuff. When side sharpening I set my file holder to 88 which presumably sets the edge at 2. I've never done anything with my base angles and wouldn't know how to...Could someone give point me in the direction of simple explanation on all this and why it is more effective...cheers
It's very simple. The base edge is the angle of the edge as it meets the base. If this is flat, or 0 degrees, your edge will be sitting on the snow and every little twitch will result in the edges catching. A one degree base bevel will be a hair slower onto edge, but more controllable.
The angle of the base edge has an effect on the the effective edge as well. If your side edge is at 3 degree (or 87 degrees, depending how you look at it) and your base is 1 degree, your effective edge is actually 88 degrees, which is sharper than a 90 degree edge, but since it's more acute, doesn't last as long.
If you go with a 1 base/1 side, your effective edge is 90 degrees.
If you go with a 1 base/2 side, your effective edge is 89 degrees.
the standard Atomic 1 base/3 side, which makes an 88 degree edge.
Follow?

BTW, unless hand tuning, a flat base edge is near impossible. The tuner stone grinds a ski flat, then has to run it over the belt sander to get the striations of the stone out of the edge. Since the belt sander curls a little bit at the edges, it leaves about a half degree bevel by design.
post #11 of 20
There is negligible if any durability issues with a 3 degree side edge regqrdless of 0-1 degree base bevel compared to the same base bevel and and a 1 or 2 dgree side edge. this is a wives tale that just is not true.

SJ, I knew I could count on you. I was waiting for you to post.

My thoughts exactly, a 1 degree is certainly easier then a -0- or .5 degree. So if folks lack skill, how is a more demanding, grabby unpredictable all on/all off base tune going to build their confidence?

As far as the wrap your file thing goes, wrap that in toilet paper and chuck it on in.

Again small variances in base bevel = drastic consequences on snow! Get a bevel guide!

Racer256, I'd love to see a vido of you on your -0- degree base bevel. Why don't you post one.

I don't care what kind of a course your on, what length it is or how mnay turns or flats are in it, progressively increasing edge angle is a key to smooth efficient carve turns an a -0- degree base bevel is on or off, just like the old straight skis!

It's a new world! (not that new though)
post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I don't know why people started talking about Nastar. I may do Nastar occasionally when I'm very bored, but I mostly do open races, with the occasional skiercross thrown in.
The course isn't hard until you can see your reflection in the blue ice, BTW.

So I guess I'll be going to three degrees, should be an easy adjustment.
post #13 of 20

?

Why the rage, atomicman? Where's the love?

See a pic here.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r.../20LayersA.jpg

My national Nastar HCP (handicap) is an 8.14.

My League Team is 4 of 100 at my beloved little Northeast Mt. (Cuz we are kinda fast but mostly just old) I myself AM a hard core league rat. No offense in that term.

Clearly you advocate .5-1. Alllll-righty then. Also - sorry you did not like my tape idea. I did not invent it if it makes you feel any better. But it kinda sorta works.

Let the OP try it. His skis will not explode into shards and blind him. Worst case - they are grabby. Ok a few passes with a FILE EDGE GUIDE will fix him up.

Serenity now...
post #14 of 20
I personally cant figure out how you spent $$$ on a speed suit when a file guide is only $15. Seems to me that any time you gain with the speed suit is negated by the inconsitancy in your edges...
post #15 of 20
Actually I inherited the suit (in a past life) from a former student but sure base edge guide looks like a good idea. Cheapest one, "the beast" at Reliable is $19 btw. Anybody got experience with this one? A nice (er) one is about 30.

BTW Soudan - read your profile. Says you are 75 years old! That is pretty cool. Skier cross at 75? LOVE IT!
post #16 of 20
Alpinord recommended the Tools4Boards Razor to me... Slidewright.com

It does 0-3 base edge, 0-6 side edge, and can shave sidewalls... works with files and stones up to 6mm thick... It cost about $25.
post #17 of 20
If you tune your onw skis spend the little money (30-50 bucks) and get a good base guide and while your at it, get something that cuts back the side wall.


I have been at 1 and 3 for years now. I have posted that here a number of times. I was told to do that by a young friend who is a high level FIS racer.

BTW I don't race, it takes to much time away from real skiing. Sorry Racer256
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer256 View Post
My League Team is 4 of 100 at my beloved little Northeast Mt. (Cuz we are kinda fast but mostly just old) I myself AM a hard core league rat. No offense in that term.
AH Racer 256,

What night do you race? I am Wednesday nights.
post #19 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
My thoughts exactly, a 1 degree is certainly easier then a -0- or .5 degree. So if folks lack skill, how is a more demanding, grabby unpredictable all on/all off base tune going to build their confidence?

Racer256, I'd love to see a vido of you on your -0- degree base bevel. Why don't you post one.

I don't care what kind of a course your on, what length it is or how mnay turns or flats are in it, progressively increasing edge angle is a key to smooth efficient carve turns an a -0- degree base bevel is on or off, just like the old straight skis!
There's footage of Mike Janyk on CSCF World 2007 Slalom Section Freeskiing chapter where he is obviously on a zero degree bevel. This shows what a first seed worldcupper looks like on that aggressive a setup and believe me it ain't pretty. Those guys are smooth as a feather on 0.5 but it shows that they do pull out 0.0 once in awhile.

http://www.snowpro.com/cscf/e/

- Fossil
post #20 of 20
if your only racing nastar... theres no need to worry too too much about buying a top of the line bevel. By the BEAST one and be set. You should only have to bevel the base edge a few times a year at best. I race in college and we do it 4x a year AT THE MOST!... that 20 dollar bevel will last you NUMEROUS YEARS.
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