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Lets talk zippper line mogul skiing (video inside) - Page 4

post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack View Post
I just replied to your pm. What a small world...

The Feb camp was absolutely awesome also. We had fresh snow Friday night (not a ton, but enough), and it snowed all day Sunday at a nice/slow rate so it was always fresh but you could still see. I also think Bobby was an awesome coach, and complimented Chuck very well.

I am not going to make it to Killington soon (definitely missing Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge - it's my daughter's birthday party that weekend). Probably in April for a day trip, but I'll be sure to shoot you an email before I do. We had a little girl a couple of years ago and it's been hard to get away (the two weekends that were good.. I went to WP on one for camp, and I am going to Alta this weekend). I've been skiing a lot of Mt. Sunapee (southern NH) a lot. They have 1 real nice seeded bump run that you can just do laps on. (been doing a lot of half days, very convenient for me).
Nice! I think there are others here that ski bumps at Sunapee. Also, you forgot to mention one other thing above: bump skiers look for the tightest, deepest lines, not the hero bumps (remember last year?)!

Yeah, I thought Bobby was awesome too! How about Babic this past weekend!

cj
post #92 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj68 View Post
I think there are others here that ski bumps at Sunapee.
Mack,

I've been going there, first weekend they seeded flying goose. Man, those bumps were great! I can't nail the upper section because they spread them out but once I get close to the bottom half I got the technique going. The intermediate run at the bowl is good, a place I go to warm up and fall back to when goose has beaten me up.

Mack, I'll PM you.

flying goose

flying goose (toward the bottom)


lift line at the bowl
post #93 of 117
Mack,
I can't believe the msg you wrote, I ski out of Waterville Valley they have a couple of good seeded runs. I could have wrote the same post about me and my buddies. We go to John Smart's Momentum camp. I'm the same age and also started 5 years ago. I'm hooked on bump skiing like a crack addict.

Jack,
Serious question, how are the bumps at Sunapee Today. I didn't know they had bumps there. Waterville put SIX seeded bump runs in this year but they are pretty trashed now. They have a comp run on Grit but I can't ski the top part so it makes for a real short run. I might drive to Sunapee next week based on your opinion. Any chance you can tell me roughly how long the bump run is. When was the photo above taken? I just want one long tight seeded line on a medium pitch I can handle.

CJ whats up, I think I emailed you before.

jsul
Stay in the bumps
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsul185 View Post
Mack,
I can't believe the msg you wrote, I ski out of Waterville Valley they have a couple of good seeded runs. I could have wrote the same post about me and my buddies. We go to John Smart's Momentum camp. I'm the same age and also started 5 years ago. I'm hooked on bump skiing like a crack addict.

Jack,
Serious question, how are the bumps at Sunapee Today. I didn't know they had bumps there. Waterville put SIX seeded bump runs in this year but they are pretty trashed now. They have a comp run on Grit but I can't ski the top part so it makes for a real short run. I might drive to Sunapee next week based on your opinion. Any chance you can tell me roughly how long the bump run is. When was the photo above taken? I just want one long tight seeded line on a medium pitch I can handle.

CJ whats up, I think I emailed you before.

jsul
Stay in the bumps
Wut up? I said in an e-mail to jack97 that I was wondering when you would show up on this thread. Where is the other troublemaker from the other forum these days? We need him over here as he always keeps it real.

Gee, so you don't need to be between the ages of 15 and 18 to ski zipper line bumps? Hmmm... seems like there are a few of us in our late 30s to early forties here that seem to feel there is no other way, even with our old, tired, and beaten up bodies.

Where are the young wipper snapper bumpers... I want to hear from them.

cj
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsul185 View Post
Jack,
Serious question, how are the bumps at Sunapee Today. I didn't know they had bumps there. Waterville put SIX seeded bump runs in this year but they are pretty trashed now. They have a comp run on Grit but I can't ski the top part so it makes for a real short run. I might drive to Sunapee next week based on your opinion. Any chance you can tell me roughly how long the bump run is. When was the photo above taken? I just want one long tight seeded line on a medium pitch I can handle.
Six seeded bumps...wow, I have to get my old butt over there one these days.

Those pics of sunapee was taken around early-mid jan. Last time I went was mid feb, it was still great. Since then, I busted my collar bone, no not on icy bumps but walking my dog. Been going there for the past two seasons, goose gets expose to the elements so the bumps can get hard but every now then the freestyle team slips them. The intermediate bump run at the bowl has better protection from the elements, they are usually softer. The guys at sunapee make large mounds when they seed them, it does take a lot to deform them.

In terms of length; the triple lift along upper/lower flying goose is about 3200 ft, they seeded ALL of upper flying goose, so that run is about 1600 ft. The run at bowl is about 1/2 to 2/3 of upper flying goose, about 800 to 1000 ft.
post #96 of 117
Thanks Jack thats some great info about Sunapee. Waterville has a comp run on grit, and some realtively short runs on Old T, Utter Abandon and Tyler. The bumps on Utter Abandon were super tight, theY WERE PERFECT. Then along came the groomer one day and he groomed the bottom half before he realized it. CJ, this was a job for JOEGM! He had a talk with the GM Tom Day who is a great guy. WV seems committed to all terrain even bumps. I'm definetly going to Whistler I've been looking at flights rates etc...
Thanks Again Jack

Stay in the bumps
post #97 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsul185 View Post
Thanks Jack thats some great info about Sunapee. Waterville has a comp run on grit, and some realtively short runs on Old T, Utter Abandon and Tyler. The bumps on Utter Abandon were super tight, theY WERE PERFECT. Then along came the groomer one day and he groomed the bottom half before he realized it. CJ, this was a job for JOEGM! He had a talk with the GM Tom Day who is a great guy. WV seems committed to all terrain even bumps. I'm definetly going to Whistler I've been looking at flights rates etc...
Thanks Again Jack

Stay in the bumps
Hey jsul, I sent you a pm yesterday... let's catch up.

cj
post #98 of 117
Mack, thanks for the post.
I really enjoyed your balanced approach and introducing me to another subculture of skiers...

"Anyway - so.. that's my take. If you have the time/energy to learn it (and it may take a few years), I highly recommend you try to learn it (but I am clearly biased, and be prepared to get sucked into a whole new skiing sub-culture). If you don't want to take the time, or subject yourself to a few years of frustration and sore-ness, but still enjoy moguls, perhaps the 'slow line fast' is the best way for you to approach it."

i had read this thread awhile back when cj68 stated there wasn't another way to ski bumps, and I thought of chiming in, since there is, but i also was enjoying hearing this aspect. I'd never even seen or heard of so many man made bump runs...

Now, for another view. I love diversity and don't think there is any right way to play on the snow. i also love skiing natural bumps, mainly because of the constant line and pressure control puzzles they offer. I ski the zipper, along with a mulitude of other lines, and really enjoy it.

Anyway, interesting thread with a different dynamic then I've seen, so even more enjoyable.

cheers,
holiday

I'm
post #99 of 117
Jack. I'm sorry, as we may have butted heads on this subject before... but I GUARANTEE the skier isn't controlling speed using A+E alone. A+E (Or Flex/Extend, as I know it) has everything to do with complementing the edge change/maintaining ski-snow contact, and almost nothing to do with speed control.

The first skiers in this thread would exhibit a bit of heel-pushing on groomed runs, I think, because of their tendency to generate edge angles with their hips. That's why the first skier (not bad, by the way) had those two or three "hiccups" on the way down. Balance was comprimised by throwing the hips around. As you said, the skier is still learning what works and, more importantly, what doesn't.

The second skier had much better mastery of his timing and stance and utilized leg movements of the tipping and turning variety in a much more precise manner. Something more experienced skiers have learned, even if they THINK it's called "A+E".

I'm not trying to hack on you AT ALL. I simply see what I percieve as a misunderstanding of movement patterns in contemporary skiing. DiPiro would admit that there HAS to be some sort of edge change (and therefore, ENGAGEMENT) to control speed. Speed control cannot exist by just timing the Absorption. And yes, Winter Park seems to be at least one of the few Bump meccas out there. Seen and skied with some of the most impressive bumpers there, in my travels. (And some pretty bad ones too, but they were just there to drink beer... they were really good at that!)

Peace out... and often,
Spag
post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
Jack. I'm sorry, as we may have butted heads on this subject before... but I GUARANTEE the skier isn't controlling speed using A+E alone. A+E (Or Flex/Extend, as I know it) has everything to do with complementing the edge change/maintaining ski-snow contact, and almost nothing to do with speed control.
Never said he was using A&E alone to control speed. I recall saying some thing like, using rotary turns and A&E, does a nice job using A&E (under the context of his level).

The physics post was just to show the physical mechanics involved of how A&E controls speed; if you don't agree that a skier/rider can increase his/her velocity from a trough then there's no point of butting heads again.
post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious Spag View Post
A+E (Or Flex/Extend, as I know it) has everything to do with complementing the edge change/maintaining ski-snow contact, and almost nothing to do with speed control.
I spent a couple of hours bump skiing with an expro on day. He gave me the following demo. He blasted down the bumps (no turns) with very little A/E. On the next lap he used his full range of A/E (no turns) to show me the effects of A/E on speed. Much to my surprise he went slower on the 2nd run so A/E must do something to slow you down.
post #102 of 117
Aaaah. OK I'm with you now. I went back and re-read the post in question. Somehow I missed the mention of the skills blend. Sorry if I ruffled feathers, I certainly didn't mean to. This has been an informative thread.

Yeah you and definitely differ on the subject, if I remember. As you said, no point in rattling sabres.

Cheers,
Spag

PS. (Max. I would argue that if you look VERY closely at what was going on with his skis, there was some level of edge change going on. But Jack and I hashed this out a couple months ago and had to stale-mate. So I'm just gonna go on reading. Thanks guys and gals.)
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post
...

The physics post was just to show the physical mechanics involved of how A&E controls speed; if you don't agree that a skier/rider can increase his/her velocity from a trough then there's no point of butting heads again.
Thank you very much for the even more-detailed (and very clear) physics explanation this time around. Pumping for speed and absorption are two such important concepts...but religious faith is also religious faith.:
post #104 of 117
I now have some decent video of my bump skiing but have no idea yet how to get it from the camera to the computer and then the forum. I will have to figure that out.

The sun is shining, the bumps are big black diamond bumps.
post #105 of 117
Pierre, I'm looking forward to your video. I need to study the Master of imagineering before bumpPhest.
post #106 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I spent a couple of hours bump skiing with an expro on day. He gave me the following demo. He blasted down the bumps (no turns) with very little A/E. On the next lap he used his full range of A/E (no turns) to show me the effects of A/E on speed. Much to my surprise he went slower on the 2nd run so A/E must do something to slow you down.
Offcourse it does! If I look at my own bump skiing I slow down significantly every time I hit a bump. Its also a much more elegant way of skiing bumps than to try to brush off speed by heavy edge set down the crest of the bumps. Choose a line that will take you into the snow piles on the upphill skide of the upcomming bump, through it and over it all while flexing.
post #107 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj68 View Post
I have to agree with you on this part "If we look at FIS bump skiers they sertainly do not wiggle down in the zipperline. They are incredibly strong skiers and they slam down icy bumps in the fall line with speed that would make us mere mortals faint, fall, die and go to heaven".

However, "they slam down icy bumps in the fall line" should be followed by "in competition". The lines that the WCers ski in competition require max speed because of the current level of competition. Furthermore, the bumps on WC competition courses are shaped more sharply than most and it is pretty much a game of absorbtion and contouring the backside of the bump, as this produces more speed (this is not my own theory, but insight that I got from one of the top coaches in the world today). But if you watch DBS, be skis with very little impact. There is a very good technical reason for this that most "coached" mogul skiers understand. This would also be another good topic for discussion if some forum members are really interested in mogul skiing.

Now if you were to see any of the WCers ski in the summer up at the BC glacier or at MJ, they typically ski with more ski to snow contact (particularly on the backside/downhill of the mogul) than when in competition, simply because they don't need the extra speed.

Also, I am curious to know what you teach as stated in "When I teach bumps or moguls I actually start my lessons on flat groomers". Simply because that is how every camp I have been to has been started off in the am. Do you do any of the following: mogul wedges, javelins, off hand drive slides, window frames, nose press turns, u shaped/containment turns, lead change and knee roll turns, skiing with poles across the top of the wrists or no poles, skiing with boots unbuckled, turning in a low absorbed position, etc?

I also submit to you that the size of the bumps do matter as does tightness, simply because it is easier to get away with bad technique in easier bumps.

cj
Hi, I took the liberty of quoting you from annother thread because I think that our discussion belongs right here in the zipperline.

Im just an ordinary ski instructor and not a mogul coach so I might benefit a whole lot from learning what kind of teaching methods the actual coaches use. You have a great list of different drills but not all of them are familiar to me. My approach is to gain insight in how to use a bump to slow you down and most importantly, how to lift you up and get you unweighted. I try to get my students to understand the need for ski rebound and how to keep the movements down below the waist. Here is a pre turn consept that I think is very important in bumps. Its all about how your muscles react and how good your timing is. Like jumping on a swingboard. Its basicly just a drill but very useful and serves as a good base for me to work out of when I ski bumps:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=8C948896
post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Hi, I took the liberty of quoting you from annother thread because I think that our discussion belongs right here in the zipperline.

Im just an ordinary ski instructor and not a mogul coach so I might benefit a whole lot from learning what kind of teaching methods the actual coaches use. You have a great list of different drills but not all of them are familiar to me. My approach is to gain insight in how to use a bump to slow you down and most importantly, how to lift you up and get you unweighted. I try to get my students to understand the need for ski rebound and how to keep the movements down below the waist. Here is a pre turn consept that I think is very important in bumps. Its all about how your muscles react and how good your timing is. Like jumping on a swingboard. Its basicly just a drill but very useful and serves as a good base for me to work out of when I ski bumps:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=8C948896
The way I have been tought by the mogul coaches, there should be no up or down weighting in mogul skiing. Any up and down movement should be as a result of absorbtion and extension. And yes, the up and down motion should happen below the waist. It is more of a releasing the tension in your legs that upweighting, and pressing down on the back of the bump... not standing up... almost like a pumping motion.

There is a lot of resistance to be had on the front side of the mogul for speed control. One coach I know even describes it as "imagine you have velcro on your skis and you make contact with the face of the bump and it also has velcro on it"... but in order to have this happen, you have to be able to absorb as well as be in a good stacked position, which also requires that you be early and balanced over your downhill ski... and that you pull the feet back under your body.

As far as rebound, IMO, it is really only necessary at the competition level where the skiers are using the energy transfer to deflect the skis and knees laterally (see Janne Lahtela, Mikko Ronkennen, or Sami Mustonen... Fin style). But they are still absorbing, etc. The Fin style allows them to get maximum turn angulation without sacrificing speed... a tactic that most will not be able to accomplish in their lifetime. For the rest of us, I think maximizing ski to snow contact on both the front and back sides of the mogul is key. If you can reach that point, you can ski any bumps, any where, any time... I know, it's a lot easier said than done .

cj
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
I spent a couple of hours bump skiing with an expro on day. He gave me the following demo. He blasted down the bumps (no turns) with very little A/E. On the next lap he used his full range of A/E (no turns) to show me the effects of A/E on speed. Much to my surprise he went slower on the 2nd run so A/E must do something to slow you down.
Cool demo to see. My opinion is that the reason A/E controls speed is because it keeps your skis on the snow. Without it you will be airborne much of the time with close to zero speed control. Even if you are not turning your skis, the mere fact that they are pressuring the snow creates friction and slows you down. Also you can use your legs to slow yourself down that way by resisting a little bit the force being exerted on you by the bump, but I kinda think that is about like trying to stop yourself when you're running down a steep hill. Your muscles are taking the hit instead of your equipment.

Further speed control can be developed by engaging your edges at the top of the bump and scarving the top half of the turn down the backside of the bump. If you can keep your skis pressured on the snow through that part of the turn, with edges engaged, you will reap massive speed control benefits as that is typically the part of every turn where most rec skiers instead speed up as they are light or weightless through there. Of course most of those skiers slow down when they hit the bump because that is the only place they have any pressure under their feet to work with. And they slow themselves down by borderline hockey stopping and using their leg muscles to push against the bump and slow themselves.

In my view the key to efficient, smooth speed control, is to (A) maintain pressure on the snow as much as possible using A/E and (b) engage the edges to scarve the top half of your turn down the backside of the bump(don't wait for the top of the next bump to slam on the brakes). If you do that, you won't have to push against the bump at all with your leg muscles you'll be able to just relax and roll right over it.
post #110 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj68 View Post
The way I have been tought by the mogul coaches, there should be no up or down weighting in mogul skiing. Any up and down movement should be as a result of absorbtion and extension. And yes, the up and down motion should happen below the waist. It is more of a releasing the tension in your legs that upweighting, and pressing down on the back of the bump... not standing up... almost like a pumping motion.

There is a lot of resistance to be had on the front side of the mogul for speed control. One coach I know even describes it as "imagine you have velcro on your skis and you make contact with the face of the bump and it also has velcro on it"... but in order to have this happen, you have to be able to absorb as well as be in a good stacked position, which also requires that you be early and balanced over your downhill ski... and that you pull the feet back under your body.

As far as rebound, IMO, it is really only necessary at the competition level where the skiers are using the energy transfer to deflect the skis and knees laterally (see Janne Lahtela, Mikko Ronkennen, or Sami Mustonen... Fin style). But they are still absorbing, etc. The Fin style allows them to get maximum turn angulation without sacrificing speed... a tactic that most will not be able to accomplish in their lifetime. For the rest of us, I think maximizing ski to snow contact on both the front and back sides of the mogul is key. If you can reach that point, you can ski any bumps, any where, any time... I know, it's a lot easier said than done .

cj
I was just yesterday watching the "everyone can be an expert skier 2" by lito and he had lots of very good tips and stuff that I teach myselfe. For instance he talked about a slow entry I think. That you should not rush the turn but let your skis unwind into the fall line very patiently. This is exactly my advise also. Then he talked about a strong finnish where you run into the hillside of the mogul below and put a hook on your turn (he talked about a pre turn technique, same Im using). Very much like I teach and ski. If lito is turning to his right my line would be a bit more to the left and a bit more over the bump than lito. This way I need to flex a bit more with my leggs but the speed controll is more efficient since i dont hit the uphill side of the mogul, I crash into it with snow flying arround. Thats the velcro effect your coach was talking to you about.

In contrast to the FIS zipper line skiing that Lahtela & co and all other pros are doing we mere mortals need to ski slower. In the zipper line this is usually not possible, you go fast wether you want it or not. Especially if the track is hard and there hasnt been much snow fall. Its funny that some think that A&E cannot be used for speed controll. The demo the coach showed you sounds great. In zipper line skiing A&E is about the only option you have for speed controll and the leggs work like shock absorbers on cars while your body moves smoothly straight down the fall line. The heat generated in shock absorbers is slowed down energy. Same applies to skiers leggs. I usually ski the zipper line the other way arround if its soft enough and that gives me more upphill travelling which slows me down. Not possible in competitions. My physics dont allow for zipper line skiing anymore because of back and knee probles and simply being out of zipper line shape.

You are right about the up-unweighting not being possible in moguls. This is one reason folks that learned skiing that way struggle in bumps. You need to let the bump lift you up but limit the movement to below your waist. As the bump starts to lift you up you let that happen for as long as nesessary but flex accordingly, just a hint more after the initial upward push so that you get unweighted. Some call this down-unweighting. Sometimes it lifts your skis up in the air but mostly you keep them on the snow, just with little pressure. Makes turning easy.
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I was just yesterday watching the "everyone can be an expert skier 2" by lito and he had lots of very good tips and stuff that I teach myselfe. For instance he talked about a slow entry I think. That you should not rush the turn but let your skis unwind into the fall line very patiently. This is exactly my advise also. Then he talked about a strong finnish where you run into the hillside of the mogul below and put a hook on your turn (he talked about a pre turn technique, same Im using). Very much like I teach and ski. If lito is turning to his right my line would be a bit more to the left and a bit more over the bump than lito. This way I need to flex a bit more with my leggs but the speed controll is more efficient since i dont hit the uphill side of the mogul, I crash into it with snow flying arround. Thats the velcro effect your coach was talking to you about.

In contrast to the FIS zipper line skiing that Lahtela & co and all other pros are doing we mere mortals need to ski slower. In the zipper line this is usually not possible, you go fast wether you want it or not. Especially if the track is hard and there hasnt been much snow fall. Its funny that some think that A&E cannot be used for speed controll. The demo the coach showed you sounds great. In zipper line skiing A&E is about the only option you have for speed controll and the leggs work like shock absorbers on cars while your body moves smoothly straight down the fall line. The heat generated in shock absorbers is slowed down energy. Same applies to skiers leggs. I usually ski the zipper line the other way arround if its soft enough and that gives me more upphill travelling which slows me down. Not possible in competitions.
You are right about the up-unweighting not being possible in moguls. This is one reason folks that learned skiing that way struggle in bumps. You need to let the bump lift you up but limit the movement to below your waist. As the bump starts to lift you up you let that happen for as long as nesessary but flex accordingly, just a hint more after the initial upward push so that you get unweighted. Some call this down-unweighting. Sometimes it lifts your skis up in the air but mostly you keep them on the snow, just with little pressure. Makes turning easy.
There are some things in your reply that I disagree with:

1).
Quote:
In the zipper line this is usually not possible, you go fast wether you want it or not. Especially if the track is hard and there hasnt been much snow fall.
This is simply NOT true. Mere mortals, such as myself, CAN control their speed on ICY bumps by simply using the techniques learned from the WC level skiers, and ski SLOW. Heck, most of the time I feel slow and wish that I could ski faster, no matter what the conditions. The same skills are used, but they all become more critical since a lot more "touch" is required in these conditions. Mere mortals who do not have proper mogul technique cannot control their speed in icy or deep, tight bump lines.

2).
Quote:
In zipper line skiing A&E is about the only option you have for speed controll and the leggs work like shock absorbers on cars while your body moves smoothly straight down the fall line.
This also is simply not true, there is plenty of edge grip/control that happens in a mogul turn, including the pros in competition, but it happens at the beginning of the turn.

3).
Quote:
I crash into it with snow flying arround. Thats the velcro effect your coach was talking to you about.
Not really... it is more suttle than that. With proper mogul technique, there is no "crashing" into a mogul. Snow may fly when the tips of the skis drive into the face of the bump and then you absorb and contain, but crashing happens when you come into a bump not being in a stacked position.

4).
Quote:
You are right about the up-unweighting not being possible in moguls.
I never said it wasn't possible, as I see a lot of people upweight in the bumps. Possible... yes. Correct... no.

5).
Quote:
Some call this down-unweighting. Sometimes it lifts your skis up in the air but mostly you keep them on the snow, just with little pressure. Makes turning easy.
A proper technically correct mogul turn, along with being in a stacked position make turning easier.

6).
Quote:
My physics dont allow for zipper line skiing anymore because of back and knee probles and simply being out of zipper line shape.
Sorry to hear that your physical conditioning is holding you back. FWIW, I am 38, have a titanuim rod in my right leg, a deformed vertabrae in my lower back that causes me pain, and am currently skiing with a torn meniscus. But as my technique gets better, it causes less impact on my body and I am able to ski with these injuries.

This is the last reply I am going to make on this subject because it is starting to make my head hurt. The title of this thread should have been "Let's talk zipper line mogul skiing using techniques and concepts other than those tought by mogul coaches". My frustration with these types of discussions is that mogul skiing techniques are misunderstood by the vast majority of skiers out there, simply because most have not had training in the discipline of proper mogul technique as used on the WC.

I'm going skiing.

cj
post #112 of 117
Thread Starter 
cj68 - Thanks for your great input here. Yeah, I agree with you that proper WC technique is different from regular bump skiing but that doesent mean its not possible for mere mortals to ski according to FIS WC style. I learned to ski bumps on the famous Nova Stoba mogul run in Austria back in the 70s and the 80s. Its still there and fun to ski but WC skiers have found better places to ski bumps and practise. When I said that its not possible to go slow in the zipperline I was merely refering to the kind of tracks that are used in WC type of events but I guess its all about definitions. They measure speed and some are faster than others so it must be possible to go fast and slow. Note that the ones going slow are going fast as hell anyway. If you want to ski the zipperline you need attitude and you need not to be afraid.

Lahtela had a really good article in a magazin a few years ago and it was interesting to hear all his comments on technique. I will try to dig it out and type it here on epic, some might be interested. He also said that he uses only 3 pair of skis every seaon and thats because they get scratched and look bad on tv. The only thing he ever did to tune his skis was to de-tune them after a base overhoul to make the edges dull.

Annother missconseption about FIS mogul skiing is that you need to have your leggs together to get good points. I have a good friend that is a FIS mogul race judge and he said that the rules state that you need to have your feet at same distance all the time. If the gap opens up and closes between the leggs you get points chipped off. Thats why its better to keep them close all the time becasue its easier.

Sorry to hear about your injuries. I had my torn meniscus fixed by ortroscopy (spelling??) before christmas. I take it a bit easier than normally but Ive been skiing since end of january.
post #113 of 117
I would like to thank all the posters who have contributed to this and to the other mogul skiing treads. I have learned a lot from them, even the ones that talk about other ways to ski moguls. Having these different posts, highlights the differences between the way the WC zipper-line skiers and people who have been coached ski them and other ways.
CJ68, the posts you find frustrating help make your point.

I suck at moguls. Most of my skiing has been spent trying to go faster in a pure arc. When I was younger, I treated every thing as a DH course, banking off moguls and getting lots of air and lots of impact. I also have a trick knee that acts up when I try to rotate my skis using my body (I don't know if this is Karate knee, Motorcycle Knee or maybe PMTS knee:). Mid air corrections for proper edge set and direction on landing take their toll on my knee. I've finally gotten around to trying to improve my mogul skiing and these posts have helped a lot. It's not that I couldn't ski moguls without falling down; I always had to try every run at every mountain(with my one-ski SG quiver), just to say I had done it. It's that I didn't enjoy it, and felt like a bull bashing my way through a china shop.
post #114 of 117
I skied bumps better last Sunday than I had all year. The improvement was a result of getting my ski tails up and under me at the top of the bump. Whether I am doing this by incorporating enough A&E I'm not sure.

I look at it like I'm standing on a balance board north south versus an east -west direction and I need to get the front of the board "tilted" so the back of the board (my ski tails) feel more elevated as I go over the bump or even when I'm skiing in deep troughs. I can swivel the skis and change edges if the tails don't hand me up. Body position is forward with shins pressing the tongue of the boot. Anyway, for me I skied moguls better when I focused on getting my tails up and under me while pushing my tips down the backside. The balance board mental picture helps me do this better.

It just provided me a "feel" basis that allowed me to perform this better.
post #115 of 117
I also made a big improvement in bump skiing when I focused on freeing the tails for quicker rotary turns. In fact, now the turns are too quick sometimes, and I need to work that out for better timing. The sensation that works for me is to feel like I am turning about a center at the front/tips of the skis, and the tails sweep around that pivot. Having unconstrained tails is the key here.

My issue now is that I think I am still too sideways relative to the line, and this means I have to turn way too much -- I may be turning from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock when a good mogul skier is probably going from 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock (or even narrower). If I can keep the tips pointed downhill more, it should make the turns narrower and the timing will come together with my rotary sweeps. But for some reason it's difficult to just let go and keep the skis pointed down the fall line on steep bump trails (blue trails are no prob -- but not true bumps to me). This leads me to believe I am not getting as much speed control out of A&E as I could.

So basically, I still have a crapload of things to work on, but it's coming together....
post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
If I can keep the tips pointed downhill more, it should make the turns narrower and the timing will come together with my rotary sweeps. But for some reason it's difficult to just let go and keep the skis pointed down the fall line on steep bump trails (blue trails are no prob -- but not true bumps to me). This leads me to believe I am not getting as much speed control out of A&E as I could.
What works for me on a lower pitch trail is to get more speed and work on timing; one is to point my ski more toward noon when the opportunities present themselves. It forces me to get away from edge sets and use more A&E. The second which was touch upon in another thread was skiing higher in the troughs; the higher line will be more direct (going deep into a trough will slow you down). The combo or either usually ramps up the speed and get the timing of A&E into my muscle memory.

Basically that's what I fall back to when the steeper bumps has beaten me up.
post #117 of 117
Personally I think this thread has achieved "classic" status and should be nominated as so. It would be archived for permanent future viewing in the classic threads forum.
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