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Few questions

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I am knock kneed, I suffer from fairly severe pronation, I have custom insoles made and my Lange Comp 120's are canted as far as they'll go. If I'm on a flat cattrack I definitely notice that I am weighted on the inside edges of my skis, when I'm skiing I don't notice it at all (since I'm always on edge) however I've never watched myself on video so who knows what my knees look like. Is this no big deal or is it something I should correct asap because it's probably/possibly hindering my performance/technique without me realizing it?

I've never gotten a lesson but I'm aware of the core basics, hands out, up, elbows wide, torso downhill, angulation, upper/lower body independance, etc.. but I'm curious, should I be pushing on my boot tongues with my shins pretty much all the time? When I carve I keep most of my weight on my downhill ski, this sometimes leads my inside ski to wander a bit, most commonly my inside tail will angle in closer to my downhill tail. Whats a good wait to fix this and keep the skis nice and parrallel? I'm having trouble weighting my inside ski more..
And finally, are there any good sites with online ski lessons? Something with good video or picture sequences?

Thanks!
post #2 of 21
I would strongly suspect that your alignment is incorrect. Footbeds are relatively straight forward for the average skier but for someone severly pronated, the level of understanding needed for footbeds cuts the field of good footbed builders to a handful around the USA. The chances that your footbeds were not built correctly is very high in your case.

I am the best bootfitter in this area. I correct a lot of botches by other footbed builders but someone with hypermobile everything can tax me beyond my limit to help them. I do not understand all the nuances of foot movement and twist to correct for hypermobility to a very high degree.

Much of what you do skiing may be compensations of one form or another that compenstate for one thing but prevent another from happening.

I would seek out the best bootfitter and be prepared to drop $.
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I would strongly suspect that your alignment is incorrect. Footbeds are relatively straight forward for the average skier but for someone severly pronated, the level of understanding needed for footbeds cuts the field of good footbed builders to a handful around the USA. The chances that your footbeds were not built correctly is very high in your case.

I am the best bootfitter in this area. I correct a lot of botches by other footbed builders but someone with hypermobile everything can tax me beyond my limit to help them. I do not understand all the nuances of foot movement and twist to correct for hypermobility to a very high degree.

Much of what you do skiing may be compensations of one form or another that compenstate for one thing but prevent another from happening.

I would seek out the best bootfitter and be prepared to drop $.
I've been to the two best bootfitting stores in whistler and i've had two footbeds made by their most experienced staff member (10+ years), they were identical (semi weighted, sitting down). I don't think a footbed alone can fix this problem as you still have to pronate inside your ski boot.. right? Even my orthopedist said she doesn't reccomend rigid corrective orthotics for ski boots.. The question is, is this type of problem usually something that should be fixed asap, or is it generally not that big of a deal? One bootfitter suggest shaving the bottom of my boots to correct the angle if it really bothered me, the other suggested correction plates to put under my bindings.
post #4 of 21
Qui,

Quote:
One bootfitter suggest shaving the bottom of my boots to correct the angle if it really bothered me,
You may need the soles of one or both boots planed to correct for canting beyond the limit of footbees and cuff adjustment. That process also requires a riser plate (3 or 6 mm) to be applied to the boot sole and the toe and heel of the boot to be reground to fit the bindings. That equates to $$ but is better than a cant under the bindings. A properly canted boot is biased to the inside edge by about 1 deg. or so.

Quote:
I've never gotten a lesson but I'm aware of the core basics, hands out, up, elbows wide, torso downhill, angulation, upper/lower body independance, etc.. but I'm curious, should I be pushing on my boot tongues with my shins pretty much all the time? When I carve I keep most of my weight on my downhill ski, this sometimes leads my inside ski to wander a bit, most commonly my inside tail will angle in closer to my downhill tail. Whats a good wait to fix this and keep the skis nice and parrallel? I'm having trouble weighting my inside ski more..
The highlighted areas above are areas that you need clarification on snow by a highly qualified individual. These items are more visual cues for correction of technique rather than good technique items for everyone. You need to sort them out and see what items relate to your skiing.

Please ask of you have more questions about my responce.

Hope this helps.

RW
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by quixotle View Post
I've been to the two best bootfitting stores in whistler and i've had two footbeds made by their most experienced staff member (10+ years), .
Which shops?....there is only one that I would trust.....
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Which shops?....there is only one that I would trust.....
Snowcovers and Fanatyk Co
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
A properly canted boot is biased to the inside edge by about 1 deg. or so.RW
I am curious why you say this Ron? What criteria suggest this? Do you reccommend the same angles for everyone? This sounds a bit "Warren Witheralish and dated to straight ski era?

b
post #8 of 21
Bud,

Quote:
I am curious why you say this Ron? What criteria suggest this? Do you reccommend the same angles for everyone?
I never reccoment exactally the same for everyone, that is why the "or so" is written in my responce. The 1 deg. (or a little less) is for an evenly weighted static stance at about hip distance apart. A weighted ski on edge (outside ski during a turn at moderate speed) will cause about 1 deg of bias to the inside, as the liner is compressed against the plastic shell along the cuff. The net result is a 0 deg. cant while moving along a dynamic turn situation. Another way of putting it, it allows for the squash factor of the liner against the shell and also the soft tissue of the leg.

Quote:
This sounds a bit "Warren Witheralish and dated to straight ski era?
This is acturlly more important as the skis get fatter and have more shape. That causes more lateral load against the sides of the boot and leg.

RW
post #9 of 21
so you are advocating 1 degree or so stronger canting than center seam? In other words the knee would plumb out to the outside of the boot center seam? It sounded like you were suggesting a more "A" frame positioning??

Interesting...

How do you assess then? For example, I insure that the boots are buckled very snuggly and have the customer tip the boot (one at a time) onto an inside and then outside edge, then back to flat and take the measurement when they just feel they hit flat. I believe this accomplishes what you are elluding to about the "squish" factor. If I see a difference between lateral flat and medial flat I check for a snug closure again and then tend to use the measurement that is derived from the medial side. Once this reference is found, I line it up with the center seam of the boot.

Are you advocating different cant angles for different skis in a quiver?

your thoughts?
post #10 of 21
bud,

Quote:
It sounded like you were suggesting a more "A" frame positioning??
Actually, slightly opposite as the skier has his skis dead flat, but loaded on the inside edge, the soles would line up boot center with with center of knee. I am not a boot fitter, but when I get alligned, the fitter uses an aparatus that holds the knee in line with the boot center line + about 1/4 inch and then the cant angle is measured under the sole for sole planning. Once the slole is planed, risers are applied along with routing the toe and heel to fit the bindings. In the "eastern snow", the very hard surface is very unforgiving for any canting issues.

Quote:
Are you advocating different cant angles for different skis in a quiver?

No real need, once the sole is ground, it's non-adjustable and the factor is is calculated in for the maxinum usefull amount of bias. I am talking about a very technical set-up that only the high end technical skier would benefit from. Ever wonder why the top racers look slightly bull-legged when they flatten their skis at very low speeds while pivoting them?

RW
post #11 of 21
Thanks Ron,

I am well aware of the process as I have been doing this for 13 years. I disagree with your assertion that only a high end skier would benefit. Though higher end skiers are very sensative to any change in these angles, beginners will benefit from proper alignment though they may not be able to feel any differences they are there and will benefit the skier's progress and skill aquisition.

As for top racers looking bow legged. Yes, this is true however as I was elluding to, these skiers will often have different boots set up differently for different disciplines. Slalom skiers often cant their boots a little stronger than speed event skiers.

It sound like the method to assess your alignment guy uses is a bit different than my method which would make sense as to why he cants you a bit stronger and the fact that you ski predominantly firmer snow than us Westerners.

thanks again for sharing your perceptions with me.

b
post #12 of 21
Bud,

Quote:
thanks again for sharing your perceptions with me.
Thank you for your open-minded approach and bty, I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding a slightly different view to the post . Many wc racers have different boots for speed events and slalom events as you know.

RW
post #13 of 21
Hi Quixotle!

Have the boot soles planed! I'm a severe pronater on my right foot, (4 degrees out) and having this work done has change my skiing dramatically and made skiing a lot easier and more fun! It costs a whole lot of money, but I think that it was worth every penny!!!

~Snowmiser~
post #14 of 21
If your natural stance puts you excessively on your inside edges it's no surprise that you have difficulty with your inside ski, and if it's that extreme, footbeds alone probably won't be enough to deal with the problem. There are also wedges that go between binding and ski, and boot/ski techs who have devices to analyze your natural stance and prescribe wedges to compensate. I've had this done to my skis and watched the process a number of times. It amounts to about the same thing as planing the sole without permanent change to the boot (yes some boots have replaceable sole plates) and the consequent possiblilty of altering the release characteristics of the binding. It's probably safer to alter the ski/binding connection that the boot/binding interface, IMHO.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
my Lange Comp 120's are canted as far as they'll go.
Are you writing about the cuff angle adjustment? That isn't canting, altho the bootmakers may call it that. This cuff adjustment is to match the angle of the boot cuff to the angle of your lower leg. Canting is done by planing the boot sole, or angled shims under the bindings, or angled plates on the boot soles. All do the same job.

Get the canting done. After that, and after your fore & aft balance is checked and corrected if necessary, you'll find that you ski much better.

Regarding your technique questions, try posting a video of yourself skiing a typical run on youtube or a similar spot and ask here for a movement analysis. Always keep in mind that you must be able to ski well with your feet. Upper body movements enhance foot movement but do not alone make for a good skier. About some of the movements you list, I prefer to ski with the elbows somewhat close to the body but the hands wide...different strokes/different folks. Generally, you want your weight on the middle of the soles of your feet with light pressure forward against the boot tongue. You can use more forward pressure at the first part of the turn and when you want to turn more sharply. The tails of the skis skidding out can be from the bindings mounted too far aft (don't trust the marks on the skis) or from inadequate counter (twisting the hips & shoulders opposite to the direction of the turn). Some skis are made more for skid turns than for carved turns. Some boots, maybe including your Langes, tend to force the heels out when flexed forward, thus contributing to skidding.

online lessons


Ken
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by midfielder View Post
If your natural stance puts you excessively on your inside edges it's no surprise that you have difficulty with your inside ski, and if it's that extreme, footbeds alone probably won't be enough to deal with the problem. There are also wedges that go between binding and ski, and boot/ski techs who have devices to analyze your natural stance and prescribe wedges to compensate. I've had this done to my skis and watched the process a number of times. It amounts to about the same thing as planing the sole without permanent change to the boot (yes some boots have replaceable sole plates) and the consequent possiblilty of altering the release characteristics of the binding. It's probably safer to alter the ski/binding connection that the boot/binding interface, IMHO.
FYI, Just so you know, when done properly boot soles once planed are fitted with varying thicknesses of sole plates then the boot toe and heel shelves are routed back to DIN specs. Many times this actually improves on the out of the box boot soles because more often than not new boot soles are warped and not flat and sometimes they are not even within DIN specs.

Advantage #2: planing the boot soles over installing cant strips under the bindings is that you are not limited to a right and left ski.

Advantage #3: You can step into any ski and be canted properly (demos).

It is with out a doubt a better option, in fact I have not canted a binding in many years.

b
post #17 of 21
Canting the bindings also isn't an option with everyone. I have the Marker Railflex binding and that cannot be canted. The other benefit of having the boots done, is that you can change skis easily. The ski shop at our area offers free demo's and I wouldn't be able ski on the demo's if my boots weren't canted.

~Snowmiser~
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by quixotle View Post
I am knock kneed, I suffer from fairly severe pronation, I have custom insoles made and my Lange Comp 120's are canted as far as they'll go. If I'm on a flat cattrack I definitely notice that I am weighted on the inside edges of my skis, when I'm skiing I don't notice it at all (since I'm always on edge) however I've never watched myself on video so who knows what my knees look like. Is this no big deal or is it something I should correct asap because it's probably/possibly hindering my performance/technique without me realizing it?
I have a less severe problem, in that I'm moderately knock-kneed and over-pronate slightly. I suspect when you say your boots are canted you just mean that the boot cuffs have been adjusted. They should have been adjusted inwards to match your leg angles, not outwards to try to correct them. The latter only puts your foot in a weak position, and doesn't actually help to flatten the skis.

True canting means changing the angle of the boot to the ski, either by putting shims under the bindings, grinding the soles of the boots and then correcting them to meet DIN standards, or screwing angles plates to the boot soles. I'd suggest modifying the boots not the bindings, since its more convenient and many newer bindings and ski-binding systems don't allow for binding shims anyway.

I really strongly recommend getting this done. Its made a huge difference to my skiing, and since it sounds like you're more severely knock-kneed than I am, it will make an even bigger difference to yours. If you notice your skis are on their inside edges on cat tracks (which is what you'd expect if you're knock-kneed) you will almost certainly have more than normal amounts of trouble releasing your old edges when skiing, and ski in an exaggerate knock-kneed stance when you need higher edge angles. If you are a good skier you probably have movements built into your technique to compensate for your alignment, but I can assure you that even if you can ski like you are, you'll be able to ski much better if you're aligned properly.

Also, Lange boots may not be the best for a knock-kneed skier. The cuffs are designed to move inward when flexed forward. Not everyone agrees about this, but moving to a boot where the cuff flexes outward or straight forward reduced my canting needs from more than three degrees on my right boot and two degrees on my left boot, to two and a half degrees on my right boot and half a degree on the left.
post #19 of 21
Thread Starter 
Well I went to a bootfitter to ask about getting my boots planed. They said they do it all the time and if I want to get an idea of what it'll feel like to put 3 or four strips of duct tape on the inside half of my toe piece where the boot meets the binding. They said not to ski too hard because this will affect the DIN rating or something.

In any case, I tried it for the last hour yesterday and it felt a little strange, I'm thinking of keeping the tape on and trying it for 2-3 full days and then taking it off and seeing how that feels. Is this an accurate way to get a feel for what my boots will feel like planed? My heels are still flat. Is it one of those things where it might feel worse and I might ski worse in the short term but in the long term I will benefit greatly, or is it one of those things where if it doesn't feel better right away it's not meant to be?
post #20 of 21
quixotle,

First off, did they assess your alignment or just make an arbitrary one degree shim (4 layers duct tape).

Secondly it would be better to put the same amount of tape on the toe and heel piece, not just the toes.

You may or may not feel the difference of one degree dependant on how sensitive you are in your feet and skiing movements. The difference is there and being aligned properly is definitely beneficial whether you can feel it or not. A good skier can feel as little as 1/4 degree variance on firm snow. In other words if I placed one or two layers of duct tape on the inside or outside edge of a good skier's bindings and did not tell him/her which edge I put it on, they would be able to tell where it was placed. I believe, in general, as you advance as a skier and develop better sensitivity in your foot awareness changes in fore/aft and lateral planes become more discernable.

b
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
quixotle,

First off, did they assess your alignment or just make an arbitrary one degree shim (4 layers duct tape).

Secondly it would be better to put the same amount of tape on the toe and heel piece, not just the toes.

You may or may not feel the difference of one degree dependant on how sensitive you are in your feet and skiing movements. The difference is there and being aligned properly is definitely beneficial whether you can feel it or not. A good skier can feel as little as 1/4 degree variance on firm snow. In other words if I placed one or two layers of duct tape on the inside or outside edge of a good skier's bindings and did not tell him/her which edge I put it on, they would be able to tell where it was placed. I believe, in general, as you advance as a skier and develop better sensitivity in your foot awareness changes in fore/aft and lateral planes become more discernable.

b
No they didn't do an assessment they just said to try 3-4 strips and see how that feels. I started with three strips and instantly felt the difference. It was harder to edge my downhill ski and on the flats my skis were squirrlier. It did not necessarily feel 'better' which is why i asked if I should be getting immediate positive results or if its something that you just have to get used to before you see the benefits. Tomorrow i will put some tape on the heel pieces too.
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