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Case Against Landis Wobbly

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
LA Times

By Michael A. Hiltzik, Times Staff Writer
February 23, 2007

"The French laboratory that produced incriminating doping results against Tour de France champion Floyd Landis may have allowed improper access to the American cyclist's urine samples, lab documents show — one of a number of errors that could jeopardize the case against Landis.

A similar error, committed by the same lab in 2005, resulted in the rare dismissal of doping charges against Spanish cyclist Inigo Landaluze in December.

Lab records turned over to Landis defense lawyers and reviewed by The Times show that two technicians from the French government-owned lab were involved in both the original urine analysis and a second, validating test. International lab standards prohibit technicians from participating in both tests to prevent them from validating their own findings."

MORE AT: http://www.latimes.com/sports/cyclin...home-headlines
post #2 of 27
Kinda suspected as much, but the jury's still out. He would've had to be a total dumb-a to do what they're charging him with. Just wasn't adding up in my mind. Chain of custody is always an issue with samples (sports related or criminal), and is almost always where things break down.
post #3 of 27
This whole case has smelled bad from the beginning. Information released to the public before to the Landis, chain of custody, bad lab protocols and proceedures, it is time to let this one go.
post #4 of 27
What is the Tour de France official position on this? I remember shortly after Landis first came under suspicison that the Head Dude of Le Tour basically said that they no longer consider Landis the winner and that they were ready to strike his name from the official record. Is Landis still the "official winner" of the '06 Tour or is he effectively guilty until proven innocent?
post #5 of 27
My understanding is that he is still the winner until they have the hearing. So in that sense, yes he's still innocent until proven guilty. In the media I think it's been a different story.

I agree that it's been fishy since the beginning. I heard several people say that doping with testosterone is a long term process and to simply do it once provides little to no benefit. The fact that all of the other days' tests before and after the positive test were negative seems odd in that regard. Then add this mess with the mishandling... seems like someone had it in for him. But I'm a sort of conspiracy theorist by nature so...
post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 

a pound of pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
it is time to let this one go.
captain bloodlust sez: NO, heads must roll first. mmbwah.
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
This whole case has smelled bad from the beginning. Information released to the public before to the Landis, chain of custody, bad lab protocols and proceedures, it is time to let this one go.

We all wish it were that simple, however, a life has already been lost because of this scandal and things will never be the same for FL and his family again - regardless of the negative or positive results. At the very least the doping authorities owe it to FL to either clear him or charge him.

I am neither pro or con FL but I pity the fellow. No scandal is worth a life lost.
post #8 of 27
I've got friends in WADA, friends in pro cycling, and I really doubt his innocence.

That said, if we are going to clean up the sport we need much better lab work than the French lab did, and a better WADA rep than Dick Pound.

I hate to see him get off by hiring a bunch of lawyers, but the case is easy to tear apart. The regulators need to realize this is serious business and do a professional job----no press leaks, no lab malfunctions.

Check out his whole defense:

http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/Floyd-Landis_SS_final.pdf
post #9 of 27

use of testosterone makes no sense.

testosterone has no short term benefit. he was clean the days before and days after. he knew he would be tested after winning a stage. so why would he take it for one day? how can ANYONE explain that?
post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke walker View Post
testosterone has no short term benefit. he was clean the days before and days after. he knew he would be tested after winning a stage. so why would he take it for one day? how can ANYONE explain that?

Apparently there is a short term effect in the form of improved recovery:

"In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul07news3
post #11 of 27

testosterone patch?

thank you for that answer. i did not know that. but as i recall, the elevated numbers were quite high. could that patch explanation account for the very high numbers? and wouldnt he have pretested himself prior to the stage and not finished first, which guaranteed testing as a stage winner?
post #12 of 27
I know people in the sport too. Doping is so wide spread, non dopers have little chance to get higher than a mediocre div 2 team. If the powers that be really want to clean up the sport, then they need to make the teams pays the tests costs, all riders need to be tested all the time, for years, and the penalties need to be stiff, for riders, mamagers, owners and sponsors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
I've got friends in WADA, friends in pro cycling, and I really doubt his innocence.

That said, if we are going to clean up the sport we need much better lab work than the French lab did, and a better WADA rep than Dick Pound.

I hate to see him get off by hiring a bunch of lawyers, but the case is easy to tear apart. The regulators need to realize this is serious business and do a professional job----no press leaks, no lab malfunctions.

Check out his whole defense:

http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/Floyd-Landis_SS_final.pdf
post #13 of 27
From every thing I have read and heard it is not that they found testerone but the ratio between the good and bad was off from a normal test. Example...and these are NOT the numbers just a example

The "bad" was 5-6, the "good" level was 13-14, normal test for "good" should have been 8-9. Again, these numbers are from memory from last summer, his "bad" test was within the limits in the rules, they had questions on why the other level was so high. Next hearing is supposed to be around May or so.
post #14 of 27
Come'on, get you numbers straight.

"Landis submitted eight urine samples during the Tour de France and, with the exception of the stage 17 sample, none of those triggered a call for follow-up testing. The World Anti-doping Code calls for a B sample to be tested if the result of an A sample test shows a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in excess of 4-to-1. Normally the body produces both at about the same rate and the average adult male will show a T/E ratio of about 1-to-1.

Landis's stage 17 sample showed an 11-to-1 ratio, a figure confirmed by the counter-analysis of the B sample. The French national doping lab at Châtenay-Malabry did a follow-up CIR test to determine whether that imbalance was triggered by the presence of exogenous testosterone. That test, too, came back positive."

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11624.0.html

The wild thing is that the lab protocol is that they should be able to repeat the test and be within 30%. They tested it twice on the A sample and got 4.1:1 on one run and 11.8:1 the second time.
http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/Floyd-Landis_SS_final.pdf

My freshman chemistry prof would have thrown them out of the lab for even considering results thst inconsistant.

I think he is guilty, but the results should be tossed. They pay for lab work like that?
post #15 of 27

Innocent. In my mind:)

World stage. Biggest cycling race for the professional teams and a decisive stage. Testing is compulsory for the stage winner. The risks? Disgrace is you are caught doping v. blowing up a day after a bad finish and not having sufficient time to recover v. challenging your closest rivals to come out and roll the dice, run off the front into the teeth of serious vertical.

FL goes off the front w/his team. Other teams pull back w/their contenders. But, near the finish, everybody goes crazy to catch FL. And, yes, they do manage to close that time gap. All using drugs?

No way Landis is a druggie (too bad Greg LeMond is such a complete ass).

Armstrong knows the French lab(s) & envious sections of the public have accused him of using performance enhancing goodies for years.

FL never tests positive, unless the lab gets creative with their testing protocol.

My mind is satisfied, so don't confuse me with the high school chemistry trivia.

FL is a great Tour d'France champion.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by possum View Post
My mind is satisfied, so don't confuse me with the high school chemistry trivia.

FL is a great Tour d'France champion.
Well possum, I used to have faith in Lance and company too. My favorite was Tyler Hamilton, great skier, modest guy, nice New England boy, loved his dog. I dug into the science of his case and it looked like more bad lab work.

Then the Spanish police find among a million other things in a doctors office, a bill for all sorts of drugs, addressed to Tyler's wife, in her maiden name, with the Hamilton's fax number on it. His whole race schedule from a few years earlier is there, with his whole program of dope and blood transfusions.

Interesting that he was a team mate of Floyd and Lance. In fact, he lived in the same building as Lance when he was doing all this. Floyd lived in the same town.

So did the Spanish police just fake this? Why go after Tyler? He was already suspended. Do you think Floyd and Lance knew of any of this?

post #17 of 27
OOPS, that was just the bill for 40,000 Euros

Here's his dope schedule. Note the transfusion just before soloing to victory at Liege.

post #18 of 27
All of this is covered in more detail than you could imagine here:

http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/ma...p?showforum=19
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
All of this is covered in more detail than you could imagine here:

http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/ma...p?showforum=19

Ah! The cycling version of the barking bears discussing edge bevel!
post #20 of 27
As a litigation attorney specializing in medical issues, I was shocked at the number of both procedural and substantive issues Landis has raised and seems to have proof for. Procedural issues would be like the incorrect dates, rider numbers and overwriting. The substantive issues would be the lab related testing issues and failure to use proper procedures and standards.

One or two procedural issues would not daunt me although it would temper my estimation of the potential for a successful conviction of Landis. But here there are far more than one or two procedural issues and the rider identification number problems are truly bothersome. This reflects on the reliability of the individuals performing the lab tests. How reliably did they do the tests if they cannot even write down the rider numbers correctly?

The substantive issues are, if correct per Landis, fatal. The unreliability of the testing, the irreproducibility of the testing, the lack of anonymity with respect to Landis, and the failure to follow lab and WADA rules for testing make the arguments against Landis thinner than gossamer.

Then again I have yet to hear the opposing argument so maybe they have something in waiting.

If not, heads should roll. A lot of big heads.

The argument that "everyone is doing it" is little more than changing the subject. If so, call off all the races. If not, then stick to uprooting the perps with real evidence. Everyone’s doing it wins for neither side but only muddies the waters.

The putative argument that since a teammate was apparently doping Landis must have been doping is even worse. This is much more like the old argument that we should convict the sons for the sins of the father. Holy cow, talk about conviction on superstition. Kill the entire village since one acted in rebellion. Again, this is muddies the waters when we should be seeking clarification. Stay on point and avoid side issues like Charlize Theron’s breast size.

Landis' arguments are quite persuasive but the adversarial process has not tested them. I will wait to see how his adversaries present their case. If it is as described by Landis, even those prosecuting should lose their jobs. For Landis has laid out a witch-hunt of the first order.

Mark
post #21 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
Stay on point and avoid side issues like Charlize Theron’s breast size.
36B

on a lesser note, jan ullrich retired.
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
The substantive issues are, if correct per Landis, fatal. The unreliability of the testing, the irreproducibility of the testing, the lack of anonymity with respect to Landis, and the failure to follow lab and WADA rules for testing make the arguments against Landis thinner than gossamer.


The argument that "everyone is doing it" is little more than changing the subject. If so, call off all the races. If not, then stick to uprooting the perps with real evidence. Everyone’s doing it wins for neither side but only muddies the waters.

The putative argument that since a teammate was apparently doping Landis must have been doping is even worse. Mark

I think we agree 100%. From a legal standpoint I don't see how Landis can be charged with doping if his side of the case is correct.

From a personal view, I would be surprised if he wasn't. It would carry no weight in court, but the pattern is there, and my sources know the sport well. Being unconvictable does not make him innocent, so don't go into hysteria about my personal beliefs.

Actually, my belief are fairly extreme. I think calling off the races and cleaning house would be a good start. A lifetime ban for the entire lot of current team managers might help. That is neither fair nor practical, but I think it is what it would take.
post #23 of 27
I wasn't whacking you on the head newfy, just trying to keep the thread from turning into a rumor fest. This is a legal process and must be limited to the legal arena. Anyway I know nothing of steroids or doping in the biking community.

Any free society, which has rules, which create contraband substances, will have a high degree of lawlessness whether the contraband is drugs, booze, or blood doping. The deviousness of man being what it is the only cures are to either institute draconian penalties or legalize the contraband. If you go the middle ground you end up in the "war on drugs". Which is really just an expensive way to lock up thousands of people down on their luck. If all the “all bikers dope” crowd is correct it just shows us how difficult it would be if all druggies were smart and rich.

Oddly if you make something no one wants contraband, suddenly everyone wants it. Maybe we could outlaw dog pooh, I have a plethora right now and I could use some help yarding it out.

As a humorous aside, I know a guy and every Christmas he wraps up 10lb packs of dog pooh in nice paper, bow and all and leaves them in the back of his P/U while shopping at the mall. Winner every time!!!

Mark
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
, just trying to keep the thread from turning into a rumor fest. This is a legal process and must be limited to the legal arena.
Mark
Come'on, what is an internet forum for if not rumours, unsubstantiated inuendo, exagerations and outright BS?
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Ah! The cycling version of the barking bears discussing edge bevel!
Or maybe it's this one...

http://www.cyclingforums.com/
post #26 of 27
Cycling needs to be cleaned up. So to, Baseball, football, soccer, most sports, in fact. The penalties, need to be harsh. While many of the "dirty" pro athletes have some sort of medical oversight, the high school and college kids don't, and that is where it become even more dangerous.

It seems to me that many owners and sponsors, still hold that any publicity is good publicity. Until this changes, no real progress will be made.

Currently, the potential rewards outweigh the potential risks.
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog View Post
As a humorous aside, I know a guy and every Christmas he wraps up 10lb packs of dog pooh in nice paper, bow and all and leaves them in the back of his P/U while shopping at the mall. Winner every time!!!
Awesome! This made the thread for me!
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