Video of a PMTS student - Page 8

Tom,

I was thinking more about the apex of the turn, where more tipping (or steering) might not be the right answer. Is there a point where pressuring (but not pushing in the sense it's used above) the ski more strongly IS the right answer? I think so. I think that point as you said a few posts above, where tipping is maxed out. I also don't think that tipping and pressuring are necessarily 100% linked (I don't think you made that 100% clear).

That's all for now.

SERIOUS DRIFT FOLLOWS:

IMO, it depends if I am below the gate or not when I attempt to correct, the pitch, speed/energy I have at the moment, why I lost the line in the first place, and the condition of the course, what's happening next, how balanced I am etc....

You see, if I've got solid edge engagement above the gate, and realize I won't be able to turn hard enough, well I've made at least two mistakes already. I was late in the previous turn, and by engaging the new edges, I've not chosen any solution: Here's 4

1) skate stride uphill - can be appropriate if on a slower/flatter portion with large offset
2) create the pivot at transition that Max has suggested prior to engagement
3) use knee-angulation during release to create wind-up anticipation by crossing the skis under and uphill so that re-engagment will occur closer to the right line
4) use the white-pass lean ( I think that's called weighted release by PMTS?)

In any event, if you are unable to get the skis back onto edge in the next turn, you're toast; brushing the entire turn is not going to get you anywhere -- Late and then brush the next turn? Yiikes!

Fixing this problem after transition means either crash in a spectacular manner, or straddle a gate.

There's some good discussion here and it's worth following. i also thought based on the subthreads of "open mindedness" and versatility, that this note that I sent to Max might be of interest. I do believe pmts is a great way to teach skiing. I also believe if Harald wasn't so devisive, it could be a sybiotic relationship instead of us vs them. i pre read and edited Eric D's book and one of the things I did was take any negative references to "traditional ski instruction" out of it. the techniques can stand on their own merits, they don't the adversarial point of view. eric knows this.
anyway,
here's the note I wrote to max in response to what i felt was a false pretense in this thread. In his defense, he stated he didn't post this as a MA, but to show that there are pmts skiers besides the coaches who ski well employing these movements.

"once again, it is obvious you are a talented athlete and have found a path that is working well for you.
i must admit that i was reading through some of the equipment stuff at realskiers and took a peek into the forum and checked out your corresponding thread. while there are also some balanced people there and i thought there was some worthwhile perceptions, i almost felt like there was no intention by you of listing to anything that isn't in the "book".

i'm glad the system works for you and having a black and white view of how to play this game works for you. I was somewhat dismayed by HH's reference to "incorrect skiing". skiing is PLAY.
anyway, as much as i agree that simplifying skiing for people and focusing a clean release through what i consider to the most versatile of ways (olr), transfering by tipping that retracting leg toward it's little toe edge, and engaging and letting the ski design do most of the work, I don't agree that doing it other ways is incorrect or that I can't expand my skills by having other tricks in my bag. I've taught in the Austrian school, shadowed classes in switzerland while guiding a client there, not to mention spending some quality time skiing with eric d, wendy fisher, dan egan, jeremy nobis, tommy moe and others. there's more then one way to play on the mountain.

Anyway, i'm not entirely sure you are interested in my answer to your question here based on the thread over there. good luck and keep up the great work on your skiing. also, if you can keep up trying to maintain a balance in your opinions that i've seen and not become as black and white as your coach, it will be good for both sides.

I actually felt like retracting my statements that i've spent some time in a pmts type technical environment when i read HH's posts. I also am somewhat bummed that i defended him at other places.

I've also said that i think HH's combative nature could be a marketing ploy, us vs. them sales, but now i believe eric d is correct, that's just who he is. eric and HH almost worked together at one time, but the my way or the highway attitude apparently got in the way."

cheers,
Holiday

Both the tips and tails have some drift even in a "perfectly" carved turn. This is described accurately in the proceedings of the First International Congress on Science and Skiing, 1996. If memory serves, the tails do drift more. Here's a link to the book. As expected, the book is hard to find. A local library might be able to find one through an inter-library loan. I know of one copy in the Eastern Washington University library.

By the way, Harb, and his collaborator, Dr. Robert Hintermeister, have three papers that have been accepted for presentation at the First and Second ICSS. The Third was in Aspen in 2004, and the Fourth will be in Salzberg in 2008. Bob Hintermeister is a Ph.D. biomechanist who was Director of Research for the Steadman-Hawkins Human Performance Lab in Vail for seven years and is now a ski coach for Harb as well as a biomechanical consultant.


Ken

BigE,

I now understand where you were coming from. But I was not talking about gates, just freeskiing. Stepping to tighten a turn just does not seem like a necessary thing to do in freesking.

Ken,

That is true, both tip and tail do drift, but tighten a turn where edge angle and ski bend are "maxed out", the tails better drift a lot more.

TomB,

How do you measure "tighter" if you've had to drift a whole bunch to get to it?

BigE,

You drift with your tails, so as far as the tips are concerned you are moving along a tighter turn. 99% of turns are made this way because most of the time we don't execute pure carves.

Nice Skiing Max

Was that video of you skiing done recently or just after you did the pmts camp ?......where did you do it ?

and for how many days in camp did it take to achieve those breakthroughs ?

Was thinking of doing 1 week camp in Fernie

AussieDaveski

I know. The problem in my head is when you say "tighten". It's as if I'm already turning, and need shorter radius NOW!

Would you say that Cannonballs turns are an example of what you're talking about?

BigE: Would you say that Cannonballs turns are an example of what you're talking about?

Not really, because in his short turn he starts with a pivoted entry and finishes with a decent skarve. I am talking about a turn where you are carving as tight as you can and then due to too much acceleration (or maybe an obstacle) you want to tighten the turn. Clearly you will have to break out of the carve, right? How would you do it?

Let met get this straight: I'm in a full-on no-holds barred carve. ALL my weight is on the outside ski. I'm bending the tar out of this edge locked ski while under acceleration. I'm fully angulated, my body is cantilevered over the outside ski, I'm fully countered. I've even added a dangerous stupid move (knee angulation) to get maximal edge angle. You're asking me how to tighten this turn further?

Sorry, I would not be able to do that.

Stand on the front half of one ski (the outside one of course), bending it even further, possibly lifting the tails right off the snow. Carve a tight groove on that tip, pressuring a particular spot on the snow to provide the impulse that redirects your cm as the ski glides through it by moving your weight back so that the tail carves in the same groove with all your weight on it as the tips come out of the groove. A very abusive maneuver on skis and knees, but it works.

I totally agree with you. Not even WC racers can carve every turn on a GS course so how could we be expected to do it. The turn radius is pritty much set up at the design table. Also skiers weight, skill, ski tuning, snow conditions, speed etc have their say but generally speaking when you have reached the limit for what you can do at a sertain speed thats it. Cranking tighter from there requires scarivng, drifting, skidding etc. Remember, that is allso a skill that is not within everyones capabilities. Skidding is not allways a bad thing .

With any given ski, there is a radius limit below which you cannot carve. Above that radius, there is also a speed limit above which any given radius turn cannot be made carving or otherwise, given current conditions.

BigE: Sorry, I would not be able to do that.

Funny, but people do that ALL THE TIME. They carve happily until they realize that the turn will be too big and then they start brushing the carve (skidding). How can this be so difficult to communicate?

Ghost, that's not an option. TomB says we're already accelerating. IMPULSE HAS HAPPENED. (BTW: Impulse does not come from the shovel. Shovel pressue will slow you down - that's why Bode skis in the back seat instead - the tails are faster. Also, impulse requires quite special attention to how the body is organized above the skis.)

I think what TomB is expecting to hear is that the skis need to stop carving and be actively redirected. However there are times when it is much too late for that; this is one of them. You deal with the consequences of your error.

It's not if you don't keep changing the scenario.

You stated that I'm at the limit of my carve, and must tighten my turn. Obviously, your definition of "limit of the carve" is far different than mine, if not the term "carve" itself.

My carve radius limit is well under the turn radius of the ski - very low single digits. When I'm in the belly of the smallest turn I can carve, I'm totally committed to it. I can only make that particular turn LONGER. How difficult is that to understand?

Can I make shorter turns? Definately. They won't be carved. Can I change from a carved turn to a tighter skidded one? Yes, but I will not already be committed to creating the lowest radius carved turn I can create when I do it. The commitment to creating that minimum radius carved turn denies the flexibility you seek. People DON"T do that all the time. They NEVER do it.

I'm not talking about pivotting your feet out of a gentle railroad track. People do THAT all the time.

OK, let's simplify.

You are carving and you want to tighten the turn. Without creating a bigger angles or more pressure, how do you do it?

Turn my feet.

OK, so how do you suppose PMTS people achieve the same thing without turning their feet?

Aggressive tipping of the free-foot.

They turn their feet, and tell you they are doing something else. (I'm talking about when folks are at the limit of their carve.)

First of all. If you are truly at the limit of what your skis can do in a carve...you will have a LOT of G-forces happening. Your skis will be seriously bent. If you even try to release that carve and allow the tails to skid, you may change the direction the skis are pointing, but you are not going to suddenly create a tighter radius turn. The G-forces are going to pull you out into a longer radius if anything.

At high speeds, the tightest turns you are going to make are going to be with a carved turn, not a skidded turn. A carving ski can withstand the G forces that are trying to pull you into a wider turn. A skidding ski can not withstand those G forces. A high speed skidded turn will simply not hold your body mass within the radius you want. Its a bit of an illusion because some people may equate the idea of turning their skis across the fallline the same as completing a turn. In my book that is a glorified hockey stop, not a turn, not an arc.

At very very very slow speeds than some turns can be made with tail skidding which are tighter than what you can achieve carving at any speed.

However, if you are comparing a carved turn at those speeds you are most definitely not getting the tightest carving arcs possible out of your skis. Not until the skis are tipped hard and bent hard are you getting to the limits of what they can carve in terms of tight radius. It is impossible to be in that position, with skis tipped hard and bent hard, then to somehow induce tail skidding and get a tighter arc. I'm not even sure I could untip my skis to do that once I am fully committed to a turn like that, but let's just say hypothetically I could, the tails would skid away and my turn radius would most definitely get bigger. Turn ruined. If I were racing I would miss the gate, not turn tighter and come in above it.

I can't even imagine why anyone would want to do that. You have way more control of yourself by staying with the carve to completion. Withstanding the G forces, finishing the turn, turning across the fallline and making a transition. That is control. Allowing your tails to skid during the bottom half the turn would lessen your control. Its like driving a Porsche on a twisty road at high speed suddenly hitting a banana peel in the road.

If you are not able to make those kinds of carved turns or don't want to go that fast, then you can scarve them from the start of the turn. Yes you can get a slower, tighter arc that way. The reason you can make a tighter turn shape is because you will not have the same amount of G forces acting on you either, and you'll be going slower. At those slower speeds and reduced G-forces, the skidding ski can still hold you in the radius you want. Opinions differ on the best way to get tail skidding, scarving, brushing, etc...

Anyone who thinks they can convert a truly efficient carved turn into something tighter by releasing their tails is living in a dream land, probably because they really haven't learned how to achieve a truly efficient tight carved turn. When I'm in a carve and I want to tighten my turn, I CARVE MORE. I tip more. I angulate more. And if you want to slow down you can simply hold on to the turn a little longer than normal to turn across the falline and you will slow down tremendously...all the while maintaining complete control of your edges sliding on the DOT.

Tail skidding out of a carved turn is useful for only one thing...slowing down in a panic because you didn't setup the turn well from the beginning.

FYI - you will not ever see racers intentionally allowing their tails to skid during the 2nd half of a turn. You may see them do early turn pivots because they are looking ahead and realize they want to make a tighter arc then their skis can carve at any speed. So they redirect the skis and try to get setup to lock themselves into a carved turn that they can complete with absolutely as little skidding as possible.

This thread is about PMTS. PMTS does NOT advocate twisting the feet to turn. That is TTS. PMTS advocates tipping more to carve or scarve tighter. Those of you that think they are actually doing feet twisting in PMTS even though they say they don't; are mis-informed. The PMTS coaches are absolutely ANAL in their MA about blocking leg rotation from happening, including pre turn pivots. They focus on many drills to emphasize this point and eradicate what they deem as unnecessary leg rotation from skiers.

Under no circumstance does PMTS advocate the use of leg twisting to alter a turn that is already in progress into something supposedly tighter.

cheers

Sure it's an option. It works. I've done it. If I AM accelerating, impulse IS happening. I'm merely changing the location of the impact and using more force on a smaller section of ski to bend it into a tighter arc. You are correct in that using the shovel will slow you down, hopefully the tails can then speed you up again. I suppose you would want to throw yourself into the back seat and carve off the tail without slowing down, but you would need something, some force, to put you there. That something is the impulse off the shovel. The best compromise is to push your skis forward to send you backwards, still resulting in a tip overpressure albeit less dramatic.

I think some confusion arises because there are conditions, for example 2 or three inches of dry loose snow over solid ice where you can not carve a turn that can be skidded. However for the most part, I agree with BTS, if you break out of a carved turn and skid you will more often than not be turning in a wider radius.

Sure it's an option. It works. I've done it. If I AM accelerating, impulse IS happening. I'm merely changing the location of the impact and using more force on a smaller section of ski to bend it into a tighter arc. You are correct in that using the shovel will slow you down, hopefully the tails can then speed you up again. I suppose you would want to throw yourself into the back seat and carve off the tail without slowing down, but you would need some force to put you there. That something is the impulse off the shovel. The best compromise is to push your skis forward to send you backwards, still resulting in a tip overpressure albeit less dramatic.

Impulse to me means what the CSIA calls impulse. I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm certain you don't know what I'm talking about.

I'll be leaving this thread now.

Good luck.

An object accelerates because it is acted upon by a force. As long as the object is accelerating that force is acting. F=ma. If the accelerating has already happened and is no longer happening, you are no longer turning. If you are turning, you are accelerating under the influence of a net force which is acting upon you with of magnitude a/m.

Impulse to me means what it means in any high school physics text; it is force times time. Impulse is what causes a change in momentum, and is indeed equal to the change in momentum. If you think of acceleration as rate of change of momentum, then you can see that force times time is mass times acceleration times time, which is change in mass times velocity or change in momentum. It's basic high school physics.

Exactly, thats why you cannot ski GS with a SL ski. Or you shouldent .