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Video of a PMTS student

post #1 of 240
2/15/07 at 12:18am
Thread Starter 
There have been requests to see video of a PMTS student. So, here you go. Feel free to comment on what you see (the good, the bad, and the ugly). You won't hurt my feelings.

These are shorter radius turns. Some carved and some brushed.

LINK TO VIDEO

BTW, You need to press the play button to start the video (it won't start automatically).
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post #2 of 240
2/15/07 at 3:08am
Good skiing is good skiing. Only issues I'd be working on for the turns displayed would be the head bobbing and (in my view) slightly excessive crouch.

So, Max, did you take up skiing with PMTS instruction from the beginning or did you improve your skiing through that instruction?
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post #3 of 240
2/15/07 at 3:41am
Nice skiing Max. Kneale the crouch at cross under is part and pacel of PMTS and is part of what separates PMTS from more of a PSIA approach. That crouch is one of the first things a PMTS skier looks for when a PSIA guy says he skis the same and understands PMTS. That crouch if fairly prominent in my skiing too.

Max you know what you need to work on. I see your new inside hip back a bit at transition and that prevents you from getting the earliest edge possible in the Hi-C.

Your left turns have a bit of a shoulder initiation. Not bad but there.
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post #4 of 240
2/15/07 at 4:50am
You're not rotating your feet enough...




J/K of course!
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post #5 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Kneale the crouch at cross under is part and pacel of PMTS and is part of what separates PMTS from more of a PSIA approach. That crouch is one of the first things a PMTS skier looks for when a PSIA guy says he skis the same and understands PMTS. That crouch if fairly prominent in my skiing too.

I noticed that Max doesn't "crouch" (i.e., flex/collapse to release) so deliberately in all the clips.

Max, can I assume that the 2 or 3 clips where your flexing is pronounced, that was a drill or exaggerated task? (I saw a HSS uniform hovering above you when you were doing it. )

Nice skiing. Did I read in one of your posts somewhere that you haven't been skiing very long?


For me, the flexing and extending that Harb teaches works much better than what I learned through PSIA. Although, my first experience of "flex to release" was from a PSIA-E examiner about 12 years ago at my Level III. Awesome. My whole group hated to have to go back to PSIA dynamic parallel for demos.
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post #6 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:16am
I like the skiing better in the first half of the clip compared to the sequences at the PMTS camp at the end of the video and that's because you appear to be skiing in a slightly less "crouched" stance. I'm at a loss to really understand why some up move and across the skis is such an undesirable movement pattern. I 've got the Essentials of Skiing Book and acknowledge HH advocates flexing the downhill leg during transition. Edge changes are better facilitated by flexing rather than an up movement which would weight the skis prior to changing edges. But staying that low as it looks to me seems to take on a very deliberate effort by the skier.

Are the forces of the turn and achieving the best edge engagement in the High C portion of the turn better facilitated by flexing the downhill leg at transition and staying lower.

You are an excellent skier and I enjoyed the clip, Thanks.
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post #7 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:18am
Interesting. I already ski in a compact stance. I really want to get more information on PMTS. I think my current style is conducive to what is beign taught here. Maybe I will get some freesking vid and post it here and Realskiers. But I do see soem of my lower body movement in some of that footage.
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post #8 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:24am
Pierre,

I been accused of being "crouched". I wonder if I developed that skiing with you. If you are going to Seven Springs I would like to get your input.

Can you explain why the "crouch" is "part and parcel" of PMTS skiing. Why does it result from the PMTS methodology?

Ed
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post #9 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:45am
On a serious note, and related to the "crouched" comments, one thing that sticks out to me is that the legs (esp the outside leg) never comes to "full" extension at anytime during the clips. Is this intentional in PMTS or not? Seems to me to be an inefficient movement/position, by which I mean that it's more muscular and less skeletal.

It's particularly evident in the last 3 clips, ESP in the next to the last one. As further evidence of this not being a "natural" position, watch the very last few frames of the next to the last clip (the one before the foggy one). What is the first thing that happens when max goes to stop skiing? He stands up and gets taller. I saw SCSA do the same thing at snowbasin last year when we skied with him. Again, I'm only asking the question here is this position intentional or not?

L
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post #10 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdigger View Post
Can you explain why the "crouch" is "part and parcel" of PMTS skiing. Why does it result from the PMTS methodology?
It's not just PMTS ... I know the CSIA (Canadian) has been using this as part of our technique for a number of years. Since the skis travel a longer arc than the body (COM), the legs must extend to maintain snow contact. At the crossover/crossunder part of the turn, the skis and COM meet and therefore this would be the point where they are the closest to one another - hence the legs are flexed more here than at any other point of the turn - it's the physics of skiing.

The up move was used more in the old days of straight skis where pivoting (rotary) was more prominent. For some folks, it's hard to make the adjustment when you've been skiing with an up move for years.

that's all for now ... good skiing max

Be carefull on your left turns - you get a little too much onto the inside ski when trying to get high and early edge angles, but you adjust well and move back over the outside ski as you progress through the turn. Keep up the good work.
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post #11 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:51am
In PMTS, you flex the downhill leg/stance leg to release. I believe the crouch is necessary to keep centered over the skis.

Very nice skiing
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post #12 of 240
2/15/07 at 6:57am
Candude,

Thanks that explanation it makes sense to me.

ed
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post #13 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:18am
Real nice skiing
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post #14 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:23am
I like it Max. I don't want to hurt your feelings;-) but.....you could use alttle more vertical seperation which would elevate minor issues. Great skiing and I like those cute little sqiggle turns. How's the grease jacket?
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post #15 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:24am

max

what skis are you on?
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post #16 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan View Post
what skis are you on?
PMTS ski on Heads, that's 1 way to spot those guys.
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post #17 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
So, Max, did you take up skiing with PMTS instruction from the beginning or did you improve your skiing through that instruction?
Prior to starting PMTS 5 seasons ago (the first 4 seasons I learned from the books and video and in the 4th season I spent two days with coaching from Jay (Skiersynergy, he is very good) and then last season I spent some time with HH and attended the PMTS race camp) I had skied roughly 30 days spread over a period of 25 years (I had a week of lessons when I was a kid that got me to a stem christy). As you might guess I wasn't pretty to watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baja View Post
Max, can I assume that the 2 or 3 clips where your flexing is pronounced, that was a drill or exaggerated task? (I saw a HSS uniform hovering above you when you were doing it. ).
Correct. We were supposed to be exaggerating our flex in those segments. The idea is to get as much as you think you possibly can and then you watch it on video and say, "Dang, I thought I was all the way down but I still have more range I could use." Also, exaggerating helps to build the movement into your normal skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns View Post
But staying that low as it looks to me seems to take on a very deliberate effort by the skier.
Yes, when you get as low as I am in that one section it does take a deliberate effort. No doubt about it. If I had video of those same turns freeskiing I wouldn't be that low, but I'd still be flexing to release the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
On a serious note, and related to the "crouched" comments, one thing that sticks out to me is that the legs (esp the outside leg) never comes to "full" extension at anytime during the clips. Is this intentional in PMTS or not? Seems to me to be an inefficient movement/position, by which I mean that it's more muscular and less skeletal.
Two part answer. First part basically answered above, the last 3 sections are skiing with a particular focus. In the first one it was a major focus on deep flexing. In the 2nd the idea was to get from one turn to the next very quickly. When you do a turn that quickly there isn't time to extend the outside leg much. In a more normal PMTS turn there is a full outside leg extension which makes skiing long runs far less tiring then maintaining a constant flexed leg position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candude View Post
Be carefull on your left turns - you get a little too much onto the inside ski when trying to get high and early edge angles, but you adjust well and move back over the outside ski as you progress through the turn.
Good catch, I've been working on that. I'm late on setting up my couter balance when I turn in that direction.
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post #18 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan View Post
what skis are you on?
In the first section those are my 170cm SuperShapes. In the 2nd section those are 160cm iSL Chips (one of my favorite skis).

Also, age 42, 165lbs.
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post #19 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
PMTS ski on Heads, that's 1 way to spot those guys.
i know one who swears by his chubbs.

it would of course be interesting, too, to see such movements translate to thick crud, bumps, powder, etc.

thanks, max.
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post #20 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Yes, when you get as low as I am in that one section it does take a deliberate effort. No doubt about it. If I had video of those same turns freeskiing I wouldn't be that low, but I'd still be flexing to release the turn.
But Max, doesn't being that low make flexing to release HARDER since you are already flexed and then to release you must then flex further?

L
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post #21 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
Great skiing and I like those cute little sqiggle turns. How's the grease jacket?
The little squiggle turns are great practice for slalom flushes. The idea is to roll from edge to egde as fast as possible without losing your balance (basicaly always balancing on a set of edges). Because I practice it a slower speed I need more counter balance and I must move my counter balance very quickly. I practice them on any run with a flat runout. Great balance and edge skill builder.
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post #22 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan View Post
it would of course be interesting, too, to see such movements translate to thick crud, bumps, powder, etc.
Slider can confirm that I look basically the same in crud and powder. Slider won't ski bumps with me but take my deep flexing turns and put a bump under each flex and that's how I ski bumps.
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post #23 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Slider can confirm that I look basically the same in crud and powder. Slider won't ski bumps with me but take my deep flexing turns and put a bump under each flex and that's how I ski bumps.
actually, max, i see the continuity when i ski with milesb.
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post #24 of 240
2/15/07 at 7:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
But Max, doesn't being that low make flexing to release HARDER since you are already flexed and then to release you must then flex further?
The release isn't any harder because there is still flexing range available to release the turns. The difference is that there isn't time for a full extension to really load up the skis (at least not at my skill level) and carry the forces all in the skeletal system. So from that point of view these very short turns are more tiring because you carry more of the forces with your muscles.
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post #25 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:20am
Max 501,

Nice turns!

I agree that the movements you are describing should be in everyone's repitoire and are very functional when forces are sufficient to support these movements, However; at lower speeds and forces these same movements are, and appear forced. They actually take more effort and therefore cause fatigue in the legs quickly. Every skier should build these movements into their skiing but to ski this way all the time.....I am not sold. I am lazy so when I can stand taller and more naturally, I do. When I pick up the intensity my movement patterns change toward the extension/retraction end of the spectrum. I do not try to apply one to all situations. Versatility is important to me and doing things with the least amount of effort just makes sense to me. Just a thought.
b

b
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post #26 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
The release isn't any harder because there is still flexing range available to release the turns.
Not true, you might still have enough range of motion to make the move, but simple physics and trigonometry dictates as you flex your knee more, then your muscles have to move (contract) even farther to move the same distance (I'm not smart enough to give you the equations). It's the same reason that the most powerful part of a cycling pedal stroke is from just past level to just before the bottom of the stroke.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that for a single movement (read turn), it may not be that much more fatiguing. But multiply it by thousands of turns and there has to be a cumulative effect.

EDIT2: Bud picked up on it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
They actually take more effort and therefore cause fatigue in the legs quickly.
Edit3: And I'm in no way saying these turns are bad. I'm just saying there might be room for a more natural, less contrived body position, without compromising the basic underlying move (inside leg retraction).
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post #27 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
Not true, you might still have enough range of motion to make the move, but simple physics and trigonometry dictates as you flex your knee more, then your muscles have to move (contract) even farther to move the same distance (I'm not smart enough to give you the equations).
When I release I'm just relaxing my leg. Its darn near effortless. If you are thinking I'm using some agressive muscle action to release I can see why you'd think its harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
And I'm in no way saying these turns are bad. I'm just saying there might be room for a more natural, less contrived body position, without compromising the basic underlying move (inside leg retraction).
This was a drill and I very well might ski that area slightly taller in normal free skiing. But, I was skiing short turns fairly quickly on a steep pitch in uneven clumpy spring conditions. Given all that I still wouldn't be able to extend like in a carve. Just not enough time (at my skill level) and I need to stay flexed to absorb all of that energy. So, I see what you are saying just not sure if I would have done it on this run.
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post #28 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
But Max, doesn't being that low make flexing to release HARDER since you are already flexed and then to release you must then flex further?
I'll take a crack at this one ....

Actually the flexing IS releasing. As you progress through the turn you allow your legs to extend to maintain snow contact as your COM takes a shorter path than your feet/skis. You will feel the pressure build on your legs (mostly the outside leg) and you should be using skeletal forces in addition to muscles to resist these forces, since we're not strong enough to use only muscular effort to resist all the forces that build up. This also causes the ski to bend and store up energy.

When you've had enough of that turn, you release your edges and the energy in the skis by flexing (mostly the outside leg). At this point you seem almost weightless as your skis cross under your COM - this is where you are most flexed in the legs - and then you tip the skis on the new edges and establish balance on the new edges, and it all begins again ...

That's how I think of it anyway
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post #29 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Versatility is important to me and doing things with the least amount of effort just makes sense to me.
I agree with that. I always release with a flex movement but the amount depends on the particular turn. In the case of the very short turns in the video we were supposed to use alot of flex as we were working on buiding the flex to release movement pattern into our skiing.
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post #30 of 240
2/15/07 at 8:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Candude View Post
At this point you seem almost weightless as your skis cross under your COM - this is where you are most flexed in the legs - and then you tip the skis on the new edges and establish balance on the new edges, and it all begins again ...
Exactly!
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