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Flat Tails, Better!

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

Oh yeah - twin tips = 15-20cm of useless material (unless you're skiing backwards or side-slipping those tight chutes and trees).
post #2 of 26
the irony of this post that you quoted someone who has Gotamas and Head Monster 103s......
post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
The 103s have a flat tail....
post #4 of 26
The need to shift backwards in pow will always exist if people ski at resorts. in AK, okay perhaps you will never need a turned up tail. And yes, a flat tail can be sunk into the snow to be used as an achor.

But I don't ski AK on a daily basis. Actually, billy-goating and bush-wacking is a hobby of mine and therefor a flat tail does not suffice.

And the heli ops in AK will have skis for me anyway if mine are so poorly adept.

I like turned-up tails on gondolas too, it allows me more privacy.

rock on gotama!!!
post #5 of 26
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
The need to shift backwards in pow will always exist if people ski at resorts.

Actually, billy-goating and bush-wacking is a hobby of mine and therefor a flat tail does not suffice.

I like turned-up tails on gondolas too, it allows me more privacy.
: : : : :

post #6 of 26
I am in full agreement with Samurai. If a line closes out it can be nice to be able to back-up.
post #7 of 26
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
: : : : :

Twin tips means you often have to use two of the 'ski holders' on the doors of small gondolas, therefore not as many people will be able to stick their skis in, and the gondola won't be as filled up
post #8 of 26
Honestly... I haven't even considered skis without turned-up tails for about 7 years. There isn't one ski I am craving right now that doesn't have a turned-up tail. My first pair was the Volkl G41, I was shocked at how much I suddenly needed that tail, yet before the G41 I never even gave it a thought.

Wow, there are dozens of skis I want to buy, yet all have turned-up tails.

I don't use the word twin-tip, because I'm not talking park skis. There isn't a single park ski/twin-tip I am craving either. I like skis that turn. But I will admit that park skis are a lot nicer than they were just 5 years ago. And if I had the balls to go backwards at 60 mph, I would probably have a different dream-quiver.

(once I got passed on a groomer by a teenaged punk going backwards. I'm fast too. I laughed out-loud, he was maching on some flappy salomons. Maching, I tell ya.)
post #9 of 26
I am with samurai here...not to get bogged down with semantics, but I ski on "directional" twin tips, which are not a "park" ski. I would never go back. The tail is not symetrical, and is not turned up considerably. But it is rounded and turned up some, not flat. The downside is negligible, a slight decrease in performance on harder snow. The upside far outweighs that. This might be BS, but I have also heard that a twin tip/directional twin/et al is safer for your knees because it releases from its edge more readily. This is also important to me.
post #10 of 26
My atomic b5's have a nice rear lip that puts out a 8 to 10 foot rooster tail on a good day .
post #11 of 26
No Gotamas, but:

Monster 103's - flat
Explosives - flat
Sanouks - slightly upturned swallowtail with taper

I do have a pair of Armada ARVs that I don't like because they've got too much sidecut and they ski like 165s (the turned up tail has something to do with this). I've tried Gotamas (last years) and I thought they were great skis. The only thing I didn't like was the tail, which made them seem short. I think this is why so many people were drooling over the prospect of a 197 this year (which didn't happen).

Slightly upturned seems to make some sense, especially in soft snow. But full twins are pretty useless unless you're skiing backwards (which, IMO, is pretty useless). I don't mean to offend anyone like I did in the other thread, but really there are cooler ways to add un-needed thigs to skis. Like hood ornaments.
post #12 of 26
I have my days where I want to go out, try to find some air, fool around, etc.. Those are the days for the twin tips. I've avoided falls when fooling around quite a few times due to having twin tips..

I do agree that twin tips are very niche. They are only useful in limited situations, but the situations where they are useful are the ones I enjoy at times. I bought the floppiest, shortest twin tip I could find.. Salomon 720 @ 151cm. It serves my purpose... As far as going fast though.. forget about it. On steeper trails, the G-forces on the ski cause it to bend in half and lose edge... On the greens and blues, you can go fast, but you end up doing EXTREMELY short radius turns...
post #13 of 26
Most of the skis with the turned up tails are easier to ski in the eastern moguls. You guy's out west wouldn't understand.

That should get somebody fired up.
post #14 of 26
They aren't as precise on groomed, but try skiing a tight chute that empties into a mogul field with a big twin-tip, and you'll appreciate the added possibilities.
post #15 of 26
15-20cm maybe not but like 10, i use it for skiing backwards, landing backwards, and as stated earlier getting through narrow chutes sometimes.
post #16 of 26
Skiing backwards all the way! especially when you get bored skiing as everybody also on the slope. And I dont see how you going to land that 180/540 switch without real twin tip.
post #17 of 26
I have a co-worker (also my gfs brother) that enjoys taking out my K2 Fours and beating on them. They are my teaching, rock, mud, grass, etc.. skis, and he really uses them more than me. He has no problem landing a 180 switch on them. The tails are upturned a VERY little bit.. maybe 2-3mm.. It's possible, but just takes a lot of practice, a good landing, and good air balance.
post #18 of 26
Although the tails of my Elan M662 are turned up, for me it is a useless feature. And the release in moguls has nothing to do with a turned up tail. After all you release your side edges not your back edge, right?
post #19 of 26
The main reason I like turned up tails is the guy following you is going to eat some snow from the rooster tail you're kicking up.

The main reason I don't like turned up tails, when I patrolled, you couldn't stick them in the snow.

Tom is right about turned up tails or twinn tips make no difference in moguls. If your tails are causing you trouble in moguls you are in the backseat and have poor technique.
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
For me I feel alot more power/response/energy out of turn with flat tails
post #21 of 26
Originally Posted by Lars View Post
The main reason I like turned up tails is the guy following you is going to eat some snow from the rooster tail you're kicking up.
Yep - this is pretty much the only forward-skiing advantage I can see to twins. And I also like the option of sticking the tails in the snow.

I've never had any problems billy-goating with flat tails. Side-slipping is another matter. But then again, I rank side-slipping a chute right up there with "Z"ing powder.

Twin tips are like SUVs. Most SUVs never see conditions where 4WD and ground clearance is neccessary. Most twins are never skied backwards. Why so many all mountain/powder/big mountain skis have them is beyond me.
post #22 of 26
First, terminology as I'm using it:

Twin-tip: significant turn-up at the tail, similar to what's at the tip. Not a modest little turn-up, which even some racing skis have.

Then, some observations:

- Two reasons to use twin-tips:
* To ski backwards. Almost obligatory for park skiers. I guess some people ski backwards out on the mountain too. Fine.
* To look cool. That's okay too, so far as I'm concerned. Just admit it.

- Competititve mogul skiers don't use twin-tips. At least not generally.

- Disadvantages of twin-tips: Harder to handle, stick in the snow, store, carry; they irritate other skiers by throwing up a rooster tail and taking up excess room in racks (okay, yes, the irrirtation factor is an advantage if you're an a**hole).
post #23 of 26
I think twin-tip tails have a huge placebo affect on some people.

When I ski backwards, I don't care if I am on my Pocket Rockets with twin tips or race skis without. They all go backwards fine.

post #24 of 26
post #25 of 26
Lol the rooster tails from my Karmas were a surprise to my ski buddies. Keeps them off my a** . Doesn't bother me because I never ski behind myself (even when in the back seat).
post #26 of 26
Ski 185 cm pocket rockets... love them. Ski great!

I didn't seek out twin tips - just happened to be on skis that ski great. Maybe I would look at the Mantra now or the X-wing Sandstorm (single tip with 1080 gun construction).

Sticking in snow. Yes it is harder to park skis by sticking tail down in the snow. And sometimes when trying to step into bindings on a steep slope it helps to jam the ski tails into the slope to hold them down. I have learned to jam the tails in at a different angle so that by the time the tail is sunk in about six to nine inches, the ski ends up correctly angled. Of course like gondola and other ski holders, it requires that skis be stuck in separately.

I kind of like the idea of being able to back up with twin tips.

For the PR's I like the centered swing weight distribution. My style is to pivot my skis in the bumps and on steeps. I believe that the extra length on the twin tip plays into this.

The extra length of the turned up tail might seem useless, but consider this: Perhaps the ski performs like a shorter ski on hard pack. But in powder the tail would be in contact with the snow. Could there be a reserve boyancy element at play here? You might have to know something about boats to understand reserve boyancy - this is why boats and ships have flared sides. Just a thought.

So, if I like my floppy PR's and I were to go to a new ski, would I choose the new Gun or the Sandstorm? I don't know.... I would demo them both along with the Mantra. I do think I am used to the centered swing weight.
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