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Should you buy "Expert" skis? - Page 3

post #61 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Razzcocks View Post
How does that work out?
Once ya get past critiquing license plates, this place is just confusing, eh Razz!

My guess is ya need a "Real" Race Ski to be an expert
post #62 of 77
Yuki thanks I agree with your statements and Steve I'll give my impression of what should be involved. But first I'll say there is another side of the coin.

Indeed there are many great skis in the "cheaper. lower performance ranks." But there are also many skis that belong there. I don't see them so often on guys, our macho image prevents that. But I see it often on women. I even have women come in and say they don't need a good ski as they aren't that good. Then in the next breath they wish they could keep up with their kids on more difficult runs. This usually happens as I examine their intermediate, torsional stiffness of a wet postage stamp skis and explain to them they never keep up if they don't buy up.

Will they get the performance out? Hell no! Will they feel more secure and confident on difficult runs? Definitely! Will the skis stop chattering on ice like a bobbing head doll? Probably. Will they hold better? Probably. Will they skiers on top feel more adventurous and safer and as a result ski better? Yes!

This summer I will probably buy a pair of skis from one of the local national team skiers. There are many. Will I get the performance out? Not a chance! Will I like the ski? Dumb question.

We to often sell down to the performance level of the individual without realizing that buy selling low level stuff, we limit their ability to improve. We have been trained to think that all high level stuff is too difficult to use. It absolutely is not if it is set up properly for the individual. Ramp angle, forward lean, boot fit (especially tightness and alignment) and binding position must be adjusted. When they are the results can be amazing. I see it all the time. Yes they spend more, much more. But if the customer doesn't impose a budget why should I? My job is to get them as much enjoyment as possible out of the sport. It is often easier to do that when selecting high end skis for the wall, than cherry picking a few winners from the low end of things.

So what should the consumer do? In my opinion it should be like this. I wil admit it may not always be possible

First-find a shop where the sales person has actually skied the skis they will be recommending from. It isn't as common as you think.

Second-tell your story with hopes and dreams all interwoven.

Third-listen to their recommendations and make certain they provide sound reasoning for their recommendations that relates to your situation. If they can't understand your situation as you do go elsewhere. If you can't follow their reasoning go elsewhere.

Four-buy what they recommend. If you are at a reputable shop they will stand behind and guarantee their selection.

Go have fun!
post #63 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by race510 View Post
Indeed there are many great skis in the "cheaper. lower performance ranks." But there are also many skis that belong there. I don't see them so often on guys, our macho image prevents that. But I see it often on women. I even have women come in and say they don't need a good ski as they aren't that good. Then in the next breath they wish they could keep up with their kids on more difficult runs. This usually happens as I examine their intermediate, torsional stiffness of a wet postage stamp skis and explain to them they never keep up if they don't buy up.

Will they get the performance out? Hell no! Will they feel more secure and confident on difficult runs? Definitely! Will the skis stop chattering on ice like a bobbing head doll? Probably. Will they hold better? Probably. Will they skiers on top feel more adventurous and safer and as a result ski better? Yes!

...

We to often sell down to the performance level of the individual without realizing that buy selling low level stuff, we limit their ability to improve. We have been trained to think that all high level stuff is too difficult to use. It absolutely is not if it is set up properly for the individual. Ramp angle, forward lean, boot fit (especially tightness and alignment) and binding position must be adjusted. When they are the results can be amazing. I see it all the time. Yes they spend more, much more. But if the customer doesn't impose a budget why should I? My job is to get them as much enjoyment as possible out of the sport. It is often easier to do that when selecting high end skis for the wall, than cherry picking a few winners from the low end of things.

^^^
post #64 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
My weight is between 67kg and 72kg - depending on training and season.
I would not be happy with a full blown 27m GS mens Race stock ski. I love womens GS in 180 or 185 though however - I prefer them largely over cheater GS skis. For a 190 mens GS I'm not strong enough.
I weigh ~165 lbs and agree all the way. I have a pair of race stock 180 cm women's GS skis and they are just right.
post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
I weigh ~165 lbs and agree all the way. I have a pair of race stock 180 cm women's GS skis and they are just right.
And they make you ski like a girl too

Like most things I buy..I take a look at the top of the line, then turn it back a notch. Most of the time you are getting 7/8th the perfromance for 2/3-3/4 the cost. I find this not only in ski gear, but audio, cars, bikes, ect.
post #66 of 77
Well a womens race stock GS will actually sell a lot cheaper than a cheater GS ski if you got club discount. That makes it great.

Some other skis which are really great for cruising, top performance and cheap are race stock Junior GS in 175/176. They are often nearly identical to the womens version, but sell a lot cheaper as they will be bundled with a 13 and not 17 DIN binder but then the same Vist plate. Not all manufacturers produce junior skis in that length although. The Atomic Sidewall/Sandwich titanal junior GS in 176, 21m radius, 2 years ago was however one of the skis I'd have bought directly if it wasn't for the money. Just perfect if you were a light rider and the list price at my local dealer with race plate and bindings (Race412) was just over 300€ - about half price compared to consumer top of the line.
post #67 of 77
Thread Starter 
Race510: Good points. Let me add one more: When you find that helpful, informed shop and they recommend a couple of skis, DEMO THEM FIRST if they are in the rental stock before buying them. There are a lot of good skis out there, but how they feel under YOUR feet is paramount. Most shops will let you switch skis midday and deduct the cost of the demo when you buy.

GregGaspar: My understanding is that the Contact line for next year is somewhat different from the current models, sidecut dimensions at least. You may want to wait and demo next year's models.
post #68 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
And they make you ski like a girl too

Like most things I buy..I take a look at the top of the line, then turn it back a notch. Most of the time you are getting 7/8th the perfromance for 2/3-3/4 the cost. I find this not only in ski gear, but audio, cars, bikes, ect.
That's funny...I do the same thing. See what the best is...then ratchet down..works in so many instances.

I can speak from a solid intermediate which means I know alot about it, but have not practiced enough to perfect anything. Once I identify what I need, I want to get something that boosts my confidence/ego...meaning that what is hot and raved about will earn points when it comes down to the final purchase. I dont see anything wrong with that...have some fun and if you can afford certain equipment (and dont take yourself too serious) then why not?

Just my 2 cents.
post #69 of 77
Thread Starter 
Weogio: If what is hot and raved about is a ski you enjoy skiing, go for it! The only thing I would suggest is that you might try the ski just below the hot reviewed ski in that manufacturer's line to see if it actually feels better for YOU!
post #70 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by weogio View Post
That's funny...I do the same thing. See what the best is...then ratchet down..works in so many instances.

I can speak from a solid intermediate which means I know alot about it, but have not practiced enough to perfect anything. Once I identify what I need, I want to get something that boosts my confidence/ego...meaning that what is hot and raved about will earn points when it comes down to the final purchase. I dont see anything wrong with that...have some fun and if you can afford certain equipment (and dont take yourself too serious) then why not?

Just my 2 cents.
When it comes to skis, boosting your confidence and ego are two different things.

Ski a race-stock ski. The image will boost you ego, for a while, until you realize that you don't have the chops for the ski, and it was painfully obvious to everyone from the beginning. That will destroy your confidence, and your advertising of your underperformance will eventually eat your ego too.

So will the micro-small sweet spot, and tail that kicks you're tailgunner ass everytime you go into a compression.
post #71 of 77
I agree that most consumers want top of the line gear to look good, especially men from big cities who ski 1 week per year. for the most part i think the big manufacturers realize this and have made there expert skis more forgiving and accessible, i work at a shop and have skied a number of expert midfats and find them to do everything decently and nothing super well. they are very skiable for the average skier and even for lighter true experts. However i think if you want to take skiing to the next level you need a quiver, an 80mm midfat doesnt cut it for ripping hardpack or deep powder. Ideally you need a hardpack ski for groomers, a 80is for crud and bumps with a gs ish sidecut and a big fat straight pair for powder I like unforgiving skis that force me to ski properly, and my favorite skis are still 188 volkl p40s (non race stock with the rail plate). I have a set of race stock slaloms and they are fun and yes i can bend them (im 6'3" 190 and have quads like a real racer) but most of the time the speeds at which they are enjoyable are unsafe due to poor trail conditions or crowds. I skied mach 3 powers and thought they are too soft for hardpack and have too much sidecut for anything else. I ski mostly tele mainly because its harder and more fun at slow speeds and reduces the hight of clifs i think about jumping
post #72 of 77

ego

I've seen it in alpine and on the water. Guys who buy the best because of the magazines. I just started alpine last year and this year I bought Atomic 11-B5 (the shop didn't have a demo program). Truth is I'm not strong enough to power then for a whole day. After conversing with some people in Epic, I was green lighted for the Solomon Equip GC Race. They are much easier to get on edge and as I only ski large arcs at speed (similar to water) they are perfect for me. I had to deal with the ego of not being able to handle the Atomics though when my friends asked what happened to them. Even on the water my friends bought the Connelly F1's and convinced me to do likewise. Same problem, I'm not putting enough energy into them to properly work them. Went down to the F1X and set PB's all summer. Man, we could save a lot of money if we could leave our egos at home...
post #73 of 77
It is a conundrum. Do you buy the ski that is able to do what you do only 10 percent of the time, or do you buy the ski thats best suited for 90 percent of your skiing and give up that 10 percent?
post #74 of 77
Thread Starter 
I guess my first thought is: why would you want to be unhappy 90% of the time when you ski?
post #75 of 77
Because you've got 3 or 4 other pairs of skis that cover the other 90% of conditions.
post #76 of 77
Thread Starter 
Nothing wrong with specialty skis for specific conditions (race, powder, hard snow carving, etc., if the ones you own work well for YOU), but, again, (getting back to my original point), doesn't it make sense to consider skis that you can use to their, and your, optimum efficiency, even if they are technically lower in the manufacturer's product line, instead of automatically gravitating only to the "expert" skis recommended by magazine testers or reviewers who may not be of similar weight or ability to you?
post #77 of 77
Of course it makes sense to be on something more forgiving that will allow you to advance more quickly as a skier. The point, though, is that many of the skis a manufacturer labels as "expert" aren't really such.
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