EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Need bevel guide for deburring?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Need bevel guide for deburring?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
When using a DMT diamond stone do you need bevel guide for deburring?
Is is it ok to use freehand?
post #2 of 23
I always use a bevel guide, and progress from deburring through finer stones. It would be very hard, if not impossible to hold any file or stone free-hand with precision. Especially when using a course stone, you can create a lot of damage if you are off-angle.
post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
this why I asked about free hand



Scalce
Member

Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 3,059

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhkung
I agree completely, but factory specs are a starting place. Based on your second paragraph, then nobody should ever need to know their factory bevel! It doesn't hurt if you put a higher angle on your edges, but it's a real PITA when you try to put a lower angle on...Base bevels, for example, come in as high as 1*. But I prefer mine to be between 0.5* and 0.75*. Unless I knew for sure what my starting base bevel was, I wouldn't know what I'm in for. Because increasing bevel is a hell of a lot easier than decreasing! Now don't you think that's information you might like to know?

Not everyone has the time or experience to cut a new bevel and would rather just maintain a sharp edge. The easiest way to do that is to use the factory specs.
If you use that logic then you still run into issues.

Even though a ski's factory specs may be 1* base, it may actually be 1.5 to 2 in some places.

Beginner tuners should just be maintaining their base edges and not setting the bevel. You can do this freehand with a diamond stone. A basic multi tuner for the side will be fine and they can ask a shop for the standard side bevel to maintain or file. They may not be able to tell the difference between a .75 and 1 degree base or 1 and 2 side bevel anyway.

Advanced tuners may prefer something outside of the factory specs anyway and are savy enough to know what they are dealing with in either case.

Production skis are just not accurate enough for you to be so picky about maintaining the "factory bevels".

If you prefer a .5 or .75 base angle then I would get them ground flat by a reputable shop even if they were new skis. It's the only way to be mostly sure.

Keeping a historic list of bevels based on what someone posts is not necessarily accurate anyway.
__________________
http://www.ifyouski.com/graphics/ify...smartmogul.gif
post #4 of 23
I was doing it with the beveller, then freehand. I freehand no more. The base beveller leaves a sharper edge. But, only one pass ok? That'll knock off the burr, without touching the bevel.
post #5 of 23
Greenmtn, the discussion you quoted has to do with the base edge bevel. In deburring, most of us focus on the side edge and use a beveler to maintain the angles. If at all possible, I don't touch the base edges and you are right that minor deburring may be free-handed there. The issue described by Scalce (who I'd really like to see back here) is that the base bevel tends to increase if you do any significant work after the base bevel is set. So, yeah, you can freehand the base edge enough to knock down significant case-hardened burrs, but if you start working with a beveler and file or do significant stone work, it likely you will end up with a much higher base bevel than intended.

It would have been useful if you had specified base bevel at the beginning.
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
Greenmtn, the discussion you quoted has to do with the base edge bevel. In deburring, most of us focus on the side edge and use a beveler to maintain the angles. If at all possible, I don't touch the base edges and you are right that minor deburring may be free-handed there. The issue described by Scalce (who I'd really like to see back here) is that the base bevel tends to increase if you do any significant work after the base bevel is set. So, yeah, you can freehand the base edge enough to knock down significant case-hardened burrs, but if you start working with a beveler and file or do significant stone work, it likely you will end up with a much higher base bevel than intended.

It would have been useful if you had specified base bevel at the beginning.
Actually I was really interested in both base and side bevel deburring
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmtn View Post
Actually I was really interested in both base and side bevel deburring
you really should use a guide for both.
post #8 of 23
Let's get something straight here.

People are using the term "deburr" to describe polishing out knicks & dings in their edge.

This is not deburring. Those are not "burrs" those are damaged areas where a very small or slightly larger chunk has been whacked out of the edge by coming in contact with a harder object.


Burrs:

Refinement of the cutting edge by using finer abrasives while sharpening with powered sharpeners or by hand will create ultrasharp metal edges, but the perfection of the edge is always limited by the formation of a burr albeit microscopically small along the cutting edge. A burr is formed by the abrasive process as it removes metal along the edge. The very fine edge being created in the final steps can be exceeding by small at its terminus--less than one thousandth of an inch and commonly on the order of a few microns. Such a terminus is exceedingly weak or fragile and it easily bends away from the abrasive as the abrasive attempts to remove more metal in order to form a still finer edge. As more metal is removed--albeit with a relatively low abrading force, that fine edge is bent out of the way in response to the sharpening action of the abrasive--hence creating a burr. Hence the cutting edge is not positioned as a geometric extension of the edge facets but rather is bent over asymmetrically--away from the last abrasive action.
Existence of the bent-over burr destroys the edge geometry and reduces the cutting effectiveness of the edge. When the edge is used for cutting, that burr tends to bend over still further under the forces of cutting and the knife dulls quickly.

The particulate nature of abrasives whether used as loose particles, adhered to a substrate, or on the surface of a bulk abrasive block--(as on an Arkansas stone) tends to create an intermittent burr along the cutting edge. Instead of being a continuously unbroken burr, it tends to be segmented along the edge, broken up into a series of micro burr-like segments along the edge that give the edge a micro serrated characteristic. The smaller the particle size of the final abrasive grit, the smaller the burr is and the smaller are the micro serrated segments.


So if you are talking about polishing out knicks and dings you use a guide. Although for the 100oth time, you should never touch your base edge except to remove the hanging burr from side edge burnishing once your initial base edge geometry has been set.

The removal of the hanging burr is easily done freehand with your ski on it's side, bases away from you, with an arkansas or very hard gummi stone or grinding block.

Any polishing with a diamond stone or other stone on your base edge will only increase yoru base bevel. Minute increases in base bevel have a profound effect on the skis on snow characterisitcs.

In fact I never diamond stone or polish my base edge even immediately after setting a new base edge bevel after a stonegrind.

I use the finest shallowest 18 tooh per cm file and then finish by polishing with direct pressure on the edge with a TOKO gummi block.

All further work that is ever done until the next stone grind is done exclusivley on the side edge! Except for removing the hanging burr caused by polishing the side edge.
post #9 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
Greenmtn, the discussion you quoted has to do with the base edge bevel. In deburring, most of us focus on the side edge and use a beveler to maintain the angles. If at all possible, I don't touch the base edges and you are right that minor deburring may be free-handed there. The issue described by Scalce (who I'd really like to see back here) is that the base bevel tends to increase if you do any significant work after the base bevel is set. So, yeah, you can freehand the base edge enough to knock down significant case-hardened burrs, but if you start working with a beveler and file or do significant stone work, it likely you will end up with a much higher base bevel than intended.

It would have been useful if you had specified base bevel at the beginning.
Well said
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
In fact I never diamond stone or polish my base edge even immediately after setting a new base edge bevel after a stonegrind.

I use the finest shallowest 18 tooh per cm file and then finish by polishing with direct pressure on the edge with a TOKO gummi block.

All further work that is ever done until the next stone grind is done exclusivley on the side edge! Except for removing the hanging burr caused by polishing the side edge.
If I'm going to set my base edge and side edge bevels myself after a stonegrind what base edge and side edge angles should I ask for at the shop doing the stonegrind? I ultimately would like them to be 1 and 3.

BTW, Atomicman, thank you for taking the time to post and share you knowledge with us novice home tuners. I know you've answered the same questions a number of times and I appreciate your patience. You really have clarified a number if tuning issues for me. If I ever make it up to the PNW and Crystal the rounds are on me. (Lovefest over.)
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
If I'm going to set my base edge and side edge bevels myself after a stonegrind what base edge and side edge angles should I ask for at the shop doing the stonegrind? I ultimately would like them to be 1 and 3.

BTW, Atomicman, thank you for taking the time to post and share you knowledge with us novice home tuners. I know you've answered the same questions a number of times and I appreciate your patience. You really have clarified a number if tuning issues for me. If I ever make it up to the PNW and Crystal the rounds are on me. (Lovefest over.)
I truly look forward to it!

Tell them you want no bevels. Just a base grind only. They will not do anything to your side edge, because when grinding your base edge flat it changes your side edge geometry.


Ask them what they recommend for where you ski in regard to a base structure. (this depends on what sort of machine they are doing the grind on)

What skis are you ddiscussing here?
post #12 of 23
I'm skiing my 4th season on 168cm Atomic R:Ex. The shop I use for stonegrinds here in the Chicago area has all Wintersteiger tuning equipment. A previous regular on EpicSki and Atomic ski guru, Betaracer, recommended getting all base structure work done for Atomic skis on Wintersteiger machines. He thought it came the closest to the Atomic factory base structure. I think I've had my skis stoneground 2 times, the last time about 2 years ago. I need to take a true bar to my bases to see if they need to be ground again. If so, I sure I'll be asking more questions in the near future. Thanks again.
post #13 of 23
I use guides for tuning at home. However, I always bring a stone with me skiing (usually an old one) just in case I need to touch up the edges after skiing many days*. On the hill, I have to free-hand since I don't bring the guides with me. If you are careful and are only knocking down light damage then freehanding works fine. Just hold the stone carefully (like you would hold out a movie ticket) and guide it with your folded fingers/knuckles. You can practice this with the smooth plastic side of the diamond stone against the edge to get the hang of it before committing to the abrasive side! (which can easily round over the edges if you goof up). Doing the side edge is very easy, base edge a little harder. I tend to do mostly side edge touchups out on the hill, that's where most of the damage shows up.


* it's also nice to have a stone handy in case I need to dull the tips and tails of a new pair of skis, which I only decide to do after skiing them a run or two
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
I'm skiing my 4th season on 168cm Atomic R:Ex. The shop I use for stonegrinds here in the Chicago area has all Wintersteiger tuning equipment. A previous regular on EpicSki and Atomic ski guru, Betaracer, recommended getting all base structure work done for Atomic skis on Wintersteiger machines. He thought it came the closest to the Atomic factory base structure. I think I've had my skis stoneground 2 times, the last time about 2 years ago. I need to take a true bar to my bases to see if they need to be ground again. If so, I sure I'll be asking more questions in the near future. Thanks again.
I met Betaracer at Whistler last year!

I have all my skis ground on an automated Wintersteiger machine.

Be sure you don't let them try to grind the concavity out of your base if there is an, which i am guessing there is.

You may also benefit from the TOKO bae beveler that spans the concave parts of the base .

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I met Betaracer at Whistler last year!

I have all my skis ground on an automated Wintersteiger machine.

Be sure you don't let them try to grind the concavity out of your base if there is an, which i am guessing there is.

You may also benefit from the TOKO bae beveler that spans the concave parts of the base .

http://www.reliableracing.com/detail...&category=2000
Whenever I get the bases ground I discuss with the shop guys the concavity of wider Atomic tips and tails. The shop I've been going to has always acknowledged this fact and told me that they will not grind until the tips and tails are entirely flat. As part of my tuning equipment purchase I bought the Toko 1 degree base beveler for that very reason based on your recommendation. Thanks!
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosper View Post
Whenever I get the bases ground I discuss with the shop guys the concavity of wider Atomic tips and tails. The shop I've been going to has always acknowledged this fact and told me that they will not grind until the tips and tails are entirely flat. As part of my tuning equipment purchase I bought the Toko 1 degree base beveler for that very reason based on your recommendation. Thanks!
Right on! Hope it is working well for you!
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Let's get something straight here.

People are using the term "deburr" to describe polishing out knicks & dings in their edge.

This is not deburring. Those are not "burrs" those are damaged areas where a very small or slightly larger chunk has been whacked out of the edge by coming in contact with a harder object.


Burrs:

Refinement of the cutting edge by using finer abrasives while sharpening with powered sharpeners or by hand will create ultrasharp metal edges, but the perfection of the edge is always limited by the formation of a burr albeit microscopically small along the cutting edge. A burr is formed by the abrasive process as it removes metal along the edge. The very fine edge being created in the final steps can be exceeding by small at its terminus--less than one thousandth of an inch and commonly on the order of a few microns. Such a terminus is exceedingly weak or fragile and it easily bends away from the abrasive as the abrasive attempts to remove more metal in order to form a still finer edge. As more metal is removed--albeit with a relatively low abrading force, that fine edge is bent out of the way in response to the sharpening action of the abrasive--hence creating a burr. Hence the cutting edge is not positioned as a geometric extension of the edge facets but rather is bent over asymmetrically--away from the last abrasive action.
Existence of the bent-over burr destroys the edge geometry and reduces the cutting effectiveness of the edge. When the edge is used for cutting, that burr tends to bend over still further under the forces of cutting and the knife dulls quickly.

The particulate nature of abrasives whether used as loose particles, adhered to a substrate, or on the surface of a bulk abrasive block--(as on an Arkansas stone) tends to create an intermittent burr along the cutting edge. Instead of being a continuously unbroken burr, it tends to be segmented along the edge, broken up into a series of micro burr-like segments along the edge that give the edge a micro serrated characteristic. The smaller the particle size of the final abrasive grit, the smaller the burr is and the smaller are the micro serrated segments.


So if you are talking about polishing out knicks and dings you use a guide. Although for the 100oth time, you should never touch your base edge except to remove the hanging burr from side edge burnishing once your initial base edge geometry has been set.

The removal of the hanging burr is easily done freehand with your ski on it's side, bases away from you, with an arkansas or very hard gummi stone or grinding block.

Any polishing with a diamond stone or other stone on your base edge will only increase yoru base bevel. Minute increases in base bevel have a profound effect on the skis on snow characterisitcs.

In fact I never diamond stone or polish my base edge even immediately after setting a new base edge bevel after a stonegrind.

I use the finest shallowest 18 tooh per cm file and then finish by polishing with direct pressure on the edge with a TOKO gummi block.

All further work that is ever done until the next stone grind is done exclusivley on the side edge! Except for removing the hanging burr caused by polishing the side edge.

 

What would you do if you happen to hit a rock and the base edge is scratched a bit ? Fine diamond file or still don't touch it? 

post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowsgomooh View Post
 

 

What would you do if you happen to hit a rock and the base edge is scratched a bit ? Fine diamond file or still don't touch it? 

Nothing, it doesn't matter. Chances are you are going to make it worse than better and increase the base bevel slightly in the area. (Which is a minor issue)

 

Work on the area from the side edge. 

 

First use a fairly gritty Diamond stone like a 100 or even a 200. The if you must, depending on the severity of the damage,  use a file and then polish as usual all from the side edge and matching the side edge bevel of course!


Edited by Atomicman - 2/28/16 at 1:26pm
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

NOthing, it doesn't matter. Chances are you are going to make it worse than better and increase the base bevl slightly in the area.

 

Work on the are from the side edge. 

 

First use a fairly gritty Diamond stoen like a 100 or even a 200. The if you must use a file and then polish as usual all from the side edge and matching the side edge bevel of course!

 

So i do the ordinary, polish side edge with 200 grit, finish with 600 grit. Deburr base edge freehandedly with 600 grit, and i'm good to go? When you have area-specific damage, do you work more in that area or do you in general try to do the same amount of work across the entire length of the metal edge? Let's say i would have to either file a bit or do quite a few passes with my 200 grit dmt stone. Do i stick to the area around the stone hit, or do i work the entire edge length?

post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowsgomooh View Post
 

 

So i do the ordinary, polish side edge with 200 grit, finish with 600 grit. Deburr base edge freehandedly with 600 grit, and i'm good to go? When you have area-specific damage, do you work more in that area or do you in general try to do the same amount of work across the entire length of the metal edge? Let's say i would have to either file a bit or do quite a few passes with my 200 grit dmt stone. Do i stick to the area around the stone hit, or do i work the entire edge length?

Not trying to butt in on A's action here but do you have one of the Swix Blue gummi stones by chance and or any kind of hard stone like a ceramic or Arkansas?  The double sided ceramic is a good one to have.  

 

Except for extreme situations, those are really the only things that should touch your base bevel.

 

As for filing the full length versus just the damaged area, I pull the file the full length to keep the edge linear.

post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Not trying to butt in on A's action here but do you have one of the Swix Blue gummi stones by chance and or any kind of hard stone like a ceramic or Arkansas?  The double sided ceramic is a good one to have.  

 

Except for extreme situations, those are really the only things that should touch your base bevel.

 

As for filing the full length versus just the damaged area, I pull the file the full length to keep the edge linear.

 

I don't. I have my 220 grit and 600 grit dmt and my file. 

 

Thought about getting the ceramic stone, but i don't race or anything, so i think it's kind of an overkill :) Or do you disagree?

post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowsgomooh View Post
 

 

I don't. I have my 220 grit and 600 grit dmt and my file. 

 

Thought about getting the ceramic stone, but i don't race or anything, so i think it's kind of an overkill :) Or do you disagree?

I don't see how it would be overkill, as you put it, at all.  They're a little more expensive than some of the other stones so if you'd rather go with a Arkansas medium, some places call it the Arkansas White stone, and a Arkansas Hard or Translucent, they'll do the trick also and cost a lot less than the ceramics but I'd also get a Swix Blue Gummi, too.  You can probably pick up a Arkansas medium pocket size stone for $10 and the translucent for around $15 then the Blue Gummi is $10-$12.  As long as you don't drop the hard stones on a concrete floor, they'll last forever and the Swix blue gummi is hard and very durable so it'll last you a VERY long time as well.  

 

I think these three, especially when you consider how little they cost, should be in everyone's tuning kit and certainly not something only ski racers would use.

post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Not trying to butt in on A's action here but do you have one of the Swix Blue gummi stones by chance and or any kind of hard stone like a ceramic or Arkansas?  The double sided ceramic is a good one to have.  

 

Except for extreme situations, those are really the only things that should touch your base bevel.

 

As for filing the full length versus just the damaged area, I pull the file the full length to keep the edge linear.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

Not trying to butt in on A's action here but do you have one of the Swix Blue gummi stones by chance and or any kind of hard stone like a ceramic or Arkansas?  The double sided ceramic is a good one to have.  

 

Except for extreme situations, those are really the only things that should touch your base bevel.

 

As for filing the full length versus just the damaged area, I pull the file the full length to keep the edge linear.

I never use a gummi stone on base or side edge flat against the edge. Even the hard blue is too soft and if you use any pressure the gummi sticks over, even if only minutely, the edge point and will dull the edge. 

 

I use the gummi with Absolutely no pressure as the final step in my tune at a 45 angle to the edge point with absolutely NO PRESSURE (yes I repeated it!)

 

If your side edge is sharp and you are using the same side edge bevel guide as the angle of the side edge, there is no real reason to work the entire side edge with a file. 

 

I would file the little area that is damaged and then sharpen/polish the side edge with your stones. 

 

I don't use ceramic stones but a True Hard Stone or Surgical Stone is really nice after using your DMT's (I use Moonflex) . it super polishes and hardens the edges. You can then also use it to remove the hanging burr!


Edited by Atomicman - 2/29/16 at 8:12am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Need bevel guide for deburring?