New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

my first snowboard lesson

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Well folks, I took my first snowboard lesson today with seven never-evers. We all walked away at noon but did not get to go up the lift as some of the group were a bit timid. Was introduced to the board version of falling leaf but not convinced that I’m doing it right. A Lot of control issues to work on before my next lesson. Stevens direction that all you have to do is lean on the foot and you will go that way doesn’t seem to be working for me. Lifting the toes does seem to be working but I have a lot to learn about how much and when because I seem to switch ends real fast.
post #2 of 22

Lesson feedback

Ryel,

Keep the steps and the amount of progress you make small. Take the early moments of the learning curve to actually learn what the board is doing. Meaning;
  1. Work on keeping you CM (center of Mass) lower, I always use the saying.."Stay low, be power full" This can be accomplished by "closing" / flexing your ankles in the boots. Imagine your feet are hungry alligators eating the straps of your bindings! (This ususaly gets the younger kids I teach into the lesson!) Also as a compliment to the closing / flexed ankles, do the same with your knees. Now imagine if you will... hooking a tape measure to the edge of your snowboard. You goal is to try an keep the length (head to toe) relatively short. "leaning on the foot to go that way does make sense" It's just exaclty where your body is in relation to assit that process along.Maintaining a lower athletic/neutral stance should most certainly help. By doing this your board will be able to succesfully "Tip/tilt" onto it's edge. To start don't go too crazy..less is more at first. Another means of controlling your board is called a "Pivot". You want to imgine having a mini steering wheel between your boots. Again the thing here to emphazise less is more, don't go super crazy. First experience the movments on the flats buckled in, then take it to comfortable pitch on your local slope. FEEL IT, THEN TRY IT, TRY IT AGAIN!!!! Smile
  2. Hands..often the overlooked, try extending them out towards the tip & tail of your board. This may help in the transitions back and forth across the hill. Imagine holing onto fine china glasses filled with a favorite beverage of your choice!(Quick tip try to keep back/torso as straight or upright as possible).
Give this a try, and most important don't get frustrated. I believe your heading in the right direction. Your body sometimes needs a great deal of repetition and time to get used to certain types of movement patterns.You'll get I'm sure of it! First few times even when I'm handed tasks at clinics I don't get em!!!!Cheers!
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 
thanks for the feedback. I will work on my "horse" stance and try to listen to the board.
my body is a bit beat up this morning but I'm just going to be quiet and relaxed. maybe tomorrow or monday I'll get up for a little more practice. Who knows, mabe leaning on the foot will come to light for me.
post #4 of 22

It ain't just leaning...

"...all you have to do is lean on the foot and you will go that way doesn’t seem to be working for me."

I think you're right, Ryel. If you just lean on the foot, without making any other movements to pivot the board or to change the edge angle, you will actually increase the amount of friction between the edge and the snow at that end of the board--causing it to go slower. This results in the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

To make the directional change on a falling leaf, you'll need to complement the subtle weight shift with a smooth movement to reduce edge angle at the tip or tail (torsionally twisting the board). This helps to release the edge at the tip or tail and will cause that part of the snowboard to slide downhill. To do it while on the heel edge, simply press down slightly with your toes on the foot you'll be leading with. On the toe edge, allow the heel on your leading foot to smoothly drop slightly towards the snow.

You can also make a smooth pivoting movement with your feet and legs, slowly sliding the leading foot slightly down the slope, to create a slight angle to the fall line. Combined with the aforementioned weight shift, you'll find the board will slowly and smoothly go in that direction.

You combine both of these movements (torsional twist and the pivot move) with the weight shift to perform a falling leaf. It also helps if you focus on making these movements smooth and gradual, rather than sudden and abrupt, as you first perform them. Increase the athleticism as you gain proficiency.



Hope this helps. Enjoy the ride.
post #5 of 22
Work on keeping you CM (center of Mass) lower, I always use the saying.."Stay low, be power full" This can be accomplished by "closing" / flexing your ankles in the boots. Imagine your feet are hungry alligators eating the straps of your bindings!

Jonah, I would like to debate you on this hoping for others to jump in and perhaps enlighten me to your point.

My thought in teaching is when you lower your CM you are also spreading it. The butt goes out and the shoulders go forward. At the same time your ankles becomes less rigid and harder to hold a single defined angle. Now the rider must move this lowered CM further to make up for both the loss of leverage a taller stance provides and the sloppy ankles. This lowered CM plays into their fear of falling instead of teaching them to ride for the carve.

If a rider stands taller (but not knee locked) with the butt tucked in and shoulders back they can change edges without having to move the torso more than three inches. This is perfect for riding flatter terrain with beginners. If they are riding for a carve (front of board) they can now steer merely by moving their eyes 20 degrees to either side in unison with their shoulders. Raising and lower toes or pressuring the tops of the boots can come next. Since this carve turn only requires one movement of the eyes and shoulder in unison it is a perfect time to get the newbie riding switch a little in preparation for falling leaf. I introduce switch in the first 5 minutes of a class. Often fear will cross thier eyes but offering a supportive hand and a quick success gets them past it

This will give them trust in riding the front of the board. They can then move to steeper terrain and start lowering the CM ONLY to match incline and speed needs while remaining relaxed, free of all muscle tension in the torso and arms totally relaxed near the hips or slightly forward. If you see the rear arm held away from the hip between 5 or 6 o'clock (regulars) they are not riding the front foot for the carve and are probably tensing the muscles of the torso which means they are not relaxed and will be riding for the fall. These are the students you should be giving your wrist guards to while you reach for your back up pair because they are going to take some bad falls. Your other students will rarely take a bad fall either way, front or back. Falls while riding for the carve tend to be rotational into a slight tumble to the knees or butt but rarely slammers.

By the end of a first lesson I like to get through falling leaf and have good forward carving with some comfort with switch carving on mild nearly flat slopes. But hey we all get those tough days. The best is two kids this year on seperate days looked up at me with thier pudgy faces and said " Gee it is a lot easier on my 'X' box!" Yea, and you never have to do a real sit-up either unless the snack and soda ares on the coffee table.

I also find this simply single movement approach works great with ADHD kids and Asburger's Autistic kids I have taught. Again, adding in the other components of the turn follow this initial simple success whether it be, boot pressuing, toes, knees dropping to the center etc.

Opinions please yea or ney
post #6 of 22
Get low from the waist down. Be tall from the waist up.
post #7 of 22
Edmur,

debate on...Rusty thank you for the further clairification.

My general take is that most students rarely get low enough. I often find my self using the example: "a giant red wood tree equals a 10, and a small frog equals a 1, you want to be at a about 5 or 6" True this reference may make no sense... but in retro spect it does. The goal here is to encourage steering and controling the board from the feet up. I beleive there is a bit of miss understanding here. when I commented, "stay lower, be powerful"...the refers to utilizing ankle & knee flexsion. The back itself should be relatively upright / straight/ I always use the example of having a yard stick taped to you back and your not able to bend / break at the waist. The comment you make is very valid my friend, and often when you are asking a student to get "lower" breaking / bending at the often happens. This genreally puts their weight more perdominatly either over toe edge, or with their rear end sticking out potentailly encourages catching heel edge. From a beginner stand point being able to "feel" what the board is doing relies on a lower CM. The other way to consider this is often when the rider is taller the movements become more "macro" rather "micro". I always like to emphasize a beginner rider to be able to use a "micro" blending of these skills together. Starting with a lower CM to me has reaped very good succes.

So till then stay low, be powerful...
post #8 of 22

to Jonah D

Thank you for taking the tinme to respond. This is exactly what I was hoping to get into. I fully, now, understand your view and can feel it.

A few things.

The yard stick anaolgy of yours.
I do something similar. I put my one index finger on the bottom of my jacket zipper or belly button and the other on the top. I move my body through the boarding positions demonstrating that the zipper remains vertical. This is no longer an imaginary visual but now quite real and consistant. I use it to prevent leaning and to build a better appreciation of 'shifting' weight. It also helps to keep them above the board and between the edges.

Macro v. Micro Yes I need help with this one. When I get their posture more upright the required movements become much less to carve beginner turns. Often I then see them shifting from edge to edge to rapidly because they are now experiencing good edging for the first time and don't realize it so they fall. The erect position is awesome but perhaps too advanced and your method of standing tall from the waist up just sounds like a much better stance for a person just learning their edges.

For clarification though on Micro v. Macro. If a person stands tall they require less movement or Mirco movements which then gives a larger response at the edge. So standing tall requires micro movements. In reverse a lower CM requires more shift movement to change edges. So I would think that standing tall demands micro while lowering CM requires Macro movements. The actual responses at the edge are in reverse.

I am going to change my registered name to Bruce Wayne for future postings.
post #9 of 22
Bruce Wayne formely know as Emdur;

I like the zipper task, will give it a try on the snow this weekend...

Don't over think this, you've got it. My point; macro movements especailly at the beginner level are usual a disaster. First turns for example, to get the board to and egde/direction change the rider can excecute it a number of ways. Skid,pivot,tip...Pivot,skid,tip...Twist,pivot,tip and so on. Bottom line here is that when learning the finer aspects of all of the above listed and then some takes time and a much slower pace. Slowing the firing sequence or "Timing, Inensity, Duration" as AASi likes to put does indeed works for a beginner.

In regards to stance, Macro vs Micro movements, due to the lack of muscle refienment/memory...more often than not a first time rider (to get the board to repond) resorts to Macro movements. For example if board is not taking edge...using the leg / body as a "lever" to get board onto edge. (very quick and some times un predictable board performance response). Rather than to... colapse the ankle and knee joint and to evenly manage the pressure distribution over the according edge. Another tell tale sign is as mentioned before, rider is breaking at the waist or sticking out the bottom half.

I'm not going to change my registered name to Robin for future postings.
post #10 of 22

Jonah d

I'm learning from your thoughtfull posts, thanks. My actual name is Bruce Wayne E....... but I like your humor.

Let me know how the zipper works and I will use your low cm this weekend.

Most instructors start with a skidded turn. I find success starting with a carved assisted 180 both regular and fakey. I then find it easy to teach a carved turn in a first lesson. What do you think?

I have taught two Asburger Autistic kids and they were both at the mountain this weekend riding successfully. The seven year took a long time to learn as she only had a 15 second attention span. She is now ten. The 14 year old was coming down a blue carving turns like a pro in our first lesson. I think I connected with some OCD perfection issue and had him merely do exactly as he was told. It was awesome. I even got good eye contact and verbal interaction. His parents were blown away and the tip was awesome.
post #11 of 22
Bruce,

Glad I can be of assitance, anytime my friend. If you ever have any other questions please fire away. As bugs bunny once said..."funny is the new funny, oh yeah and funny is funny" (taken from Bab's birthday party book).

I'm heading down to my local resort for a few turns in the am. Recieved a few inches of freshies over night, should be decent. I'll probably have better chance to try the zipper task this weekend with more folks. Will give you the feedback later in the weekend.

Nice job with the Autistic students, sounds like you have a vey deep passion and patience to teach in such situations, good for you. I admire your efforts. You do the sport well my friend, job well done!
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
well, I went up to practice and I can heel turn and swap ends but I cannot do the falling leaf bit about going one way till it stops and then go the other. Instead of stopping I swap ends and keep on going. Oh well, at least I'm going.
post #13 of 22

Hey Jonah, new question

Jonah D.

How did you make out with the zipper idea?

I have tried the stand tall from the waist up now for two weekends giving students their preference of standing tall with legs taller and with knees bent. On flat terrain with just enough speed to make a turn I find standing upright works best while on a steeper beginner slope the bent knee is better for several reasons with the lead one being the mental comfort of the newbie. The taller stance though seems to make better turners sooner but there are many that need the comfort instead of quicker learning curve.

New question for teaching first timers: Start with skidded turn or carved turn?
My experience is that I can effectively teach a true carved turn (both feet in) faster than a skidded turn with one foot out using the classic stance of shoulder hip (or knee), front foot and head (eyes) alignment.

http://www.aasi.org/01/education/ilc...nowboard03.htm

But this is not the normal progression which leaves me wondering should I accept a lower target achievement of falling leaf for a first lesson and just teach the norm (skidded turn) or continue to target the higher progression being a carved turn, 360 spins, falling leaf and controlled stops? With an assist (from me) in the very beginning of the lesson, I have been able to effectively teach two Autistic kids, many adhd kids and most all unchallenged of all ages in one 1 - 1.5 hour lessons to ride correctly for the carved turn. Many were referred after failing in other lessons or hit emotional and learning walls.

Typical experience: I was walking by a first year, teenage instructor who was about 80 minutes into a 90 minute lesson with five firstimers about 10 years old. I asked my young friend how it was going. He replied " I would like to take four up the chair but this one kid just doesn't get it, can't stand or ride" I offered to take the saddened kid for the ten minutes. I asked him to show me his best. He rode with his eyes down, head down, shoulders bent, arms rigid in a neutral stance and fell in about 15 feet. I then put him in a proper stance, discussed the importance of head position and walked/rode in front of him with my hand to guide his eyes into successful turns in each direction. This merely required the proper position and the eyes/shoulder working in unison while the torso and arms remained relaxed (not engaged). He immediately got it. (Feet and other moves can come later after a few successful brain patterning turns have set in.) Unbeknownst to me, his parents were watching the lesson from the original start. They came up and excitedly shared they had wanted to pull him out of the class early on since he was doing so poorly but now see (in their exact words) our son just needs a private lesson, he is doing great and we will be back, The kid agreed. There is some validity to their comment but back to my point: Teaching an advanced/proper stance initially works 99% of the time while ignoring the proper stance and teaching to power through with a skidded or body forced turn has a much lower success rate although I will agree that 70% will learn quicker with a forced turn (to board back footed) but what about the other 30%? Especially with stats that show a high percentage never return for a second experience. Opinions please!!!!!!!!!!!
post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
Teaching an advanced/proper stance initially works 99% of the time while ignoring the proper stance and teaching to power through with a skidded or body forced turn has a much lower success rate although I will agree that 70% will learn quicker with a forced turn (to board back footed) but what about the other 30%? Especially with stats that show a high percentage never return for a second experience. Opinions please!!!!!!!!!!!
Skidded turns do not mean forced by any means. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but from my observation of many BC instructors, I am not misunderstanding. A carved turn is not the answer, but I am not sure that we are talking about the same type of carved turn.


Skidded turn:


Carved turn:


Are we on the same page?
If not, let me know.

If I am insulting your intelligence, let me know as well - that is not my intention.


As far as learning to board back footed, I can't believe that back foot steering, or windshield wiper turns, are still being taught. We (U.S. teaching pros) have come a long way, but apparently we still have a long way to go.

I don't believe that 70% will learn better with forced turns.

I think that you and Jonah probably agree more than you disagree. What you guys are talking about are similar ideas with different goals. I think that you already know that.

Proper stance should be employed 100% of the time and should be the starting point of beginner turning progressions.

I will PM you with more personal stuff...
post #15 of 22

to philsthrills

No insult taken, thanks for jumping in. Great pictures and yes I like both as being examples of good form. I did not intend to say the skidded turn is bad.

My bitch with teaching skidded turns is when the student is allowed to flail their arms as counter balances for a back foot stance and counter rotational energy shots to engage the hips and torso muscles into a rotational shot to pull the back foot around. So what's the board doing? Why not just mount bindings on a slab of plywood? Metal edges are surely counter productive.

Clear your mail box.
post #16 of 22
I had it cleared, but someone sent me a 15 part message . It is all clear now.
post #17 of 22
Bruce Wayne, thanks for the thoughtful replies, and especially the link.
I can relate this to golf : , which I am much better at than snowboarding. It's about posture. If you don't have a balanced posure, including stance, slightly flexed knees, head position, ball position, shoulder position, you are in for an uphill battle. Usually, when my ball striking get out of whack (no pun) I find that my posture is somehow out of whack. Also, I think the mind game is equally involed in both sports, especially in terms of feel. If you force it, it won't happen.

BTW, where do you teach?
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
New question for teaching first timers: Start with skidded turn or carved turn?
I've found that first timers will rarely do pure carved turns mainly because of balance issues, but low edge angles and hard snow can also be contributing factors. However, this may be a semantics issue. With respect to not teaching pushing with the back foot, I've had many first time students carve turns with their back foot out of the binding. I've found it's just a matter of selecting flat enough terrain and having enough room so that the student can be patient enough to let the turn happen. However, most of my first timers end up "scarving". They may not leave pencil thin lines, but they don't push the back foot lower down the fall line than the front foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
But this is not the normal progression which leaves me wondering should I accept a lower target achievement of falling leaf for a first lesson and just teach the norm (skidded turn) or continue to target the higher progression being a carved turn, 360 spins, falling leaf and controlled stops?


Up until this season I had not taught a falling leaf to first timers. However, after our crack snowmaking crew blew some giant whales into our beginner slope, I had to adapt for a day or two until our crack grooming crew had "fixed" the problem. With our beginner slope having a crowned shape (i.e. double fall lines on the edges of the slopes that trap beginner riders) and the typical crowds we have, my normal teaching progression was not able to prepare my students for the steep pitches on the backs of the whales. A side slip/falling leaf was necessary to successfully navigate this terrain. Note: I'm aware of the philosophy that a steeper pitch helps to promote edging faster - I simply have not had the percentage of success teaching this way that I get from using gentler terrain primarily because fast traversing beginners get an impending sense of doom from straightliners but also because using the full width of the slope causes beginner riders to get trapped by the double fall lines. In general, I prefer not to teach falling leaf because it easily becomes a crutch that is hard to break. However, yesterday I had good success with teaching falling leaf with an emphasis on using "stepping on the front foot" as a recovery from a skidded turn and as the use of "twist" to start a turn. My recommendation is that you be open to adapting your teaching methods to the dictates of terrain conditions and the needs of your students.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
With an assist (from me) in the very beginning of the lesson, I have been able to effectively teach two Autistic kids, many adhd kids and most all unchallenged of all ages in one 1 - 1.5 hour lessons to ride correctly for the carved turn.
All ages? It's been my experience that very few kids under age 7 are able to do much of anything besides surfing on the back foot. Other than that, I agree with this.
post #19 of 22

simplemind and philthrills

Simplemind, what can I say, great id name. Thanks for the cross sport thought. I don't golf but will try your input when I take the sickle to the dandelions this spring. Hate those things.

Philthrills you said: "All ages? It's been my experience that very few kids under age 7 are able to do much of anything besides surfing on the back foot. Other than that, I agree with this."

My self perception is that I am generally successful with the this age group. They can learn it if they desire it at the moment which most do. I suspect though that more than 50% won't stay with it and will retreat to the more natural feeling body positions upon their next visit to the slopes. But at least once they knew what it felt like to experience horizontal flight and might long for the feeling again.
Often you get a younger brother in a lesson tuned up and his 12 yr. old hot shot rail riding brother meets him at the end who most often is a body pushing tail swinger, and off they go.

Here is what I perceive works for me with this age group. First I look to see if the bindings look right (toe heel hang) then the laces then the muscle structure. You get a 40 lb 5/6 yr old and they don't have the muscles to work the boots, flex the board, raise the toes, get on edge etc, etc.
I made the mistake of explaining the dynamics to a six yr old this weekend along with the older kids in the class. One look and I asked what was wrong. "You don't explain things in a way I can understand them". Wow from a six yr old talking to a seasoned corporate sales guy. Guess who felt like the child getting put in its place by the adult!

So back to basics. Kids can't visualize complicated instructions involving extremely minute changes in edge control and balance while moving laterally down a scary hill and, as a matter of fact, most adults can't either. So what can they understand? Simple, brain patterning. Teach the brain the movement and the rest will follow. Now let's take the case of the small six/five yr old without the leg or ankle strength to work the board. If this works with them it will work with the 350 lb dad also, although instead of eye movement I might try toasting an imaginary beer to the left or right (just a thought).

Objective: energize the board camber; release the energy out the tail (with lift) while pressing the front turning edge into the snow being on edge to carve safely.

I am amazed that most kids do not know what a curtsy is. Once explained, I have them do a few in a neutral stance (kind of funny) but I get them to imagine they are meeting the queen. I might place my index fingers on their sternum top and top center of back and help them go up and down the proper amount, about 1 - 2 inches. Then we change it up to a drop straight down and a rise to the riding position for either side turn with the eyes and shoulder engaged. I find they understand the angle of a slice of pizza and they are going to look down (forward) either side of that slice (about 20 degrees) and do a second drop into their heel or toe hoping they can feel their boot tops (I might place a finger in the boot top closer to the front heel or toe and ask them to press on it when they do their second drop. I want their brain to discover the nerves and feel so they know to look for it when they do their second drop. It is amazing how little one must change to pressure this spot once they know it is there and how effective it is once they do it.) This is a very simple move. We do it about five to ten times with positive comments for good eye position, head, body drop etc. while standing still. Now that little 5 yr old can hit the edges and torque the board without ankles strength or leg musles ingaged while the body (torso) can be rag-doll loose or at least relaxed. Try this, it works!

The next step is to merely repeat the body movement while moving and, whalla, the board carved. Some even spin a 360 on nearly flat terrain setting us up for the next lesson on back foot pressure. Why does this work for the slight of size? They are actually harnessing the energy wave created by the fluid body movement of a mass undulating up and down in a directed fashion, exactly the way we all board when carving those good looking connected turns. They do not need to know the torsional rating of their board, only to experience its functionality while realizing they are becoming more fall proof than ever before.

I was explaining this to a first yr, teenage teacher after assisting him with his ‘failure’ student when a dad came by with a five yr old both struggling not to fall and not to go straight. With permission, I did this drill to a five count and sent the kid on his way telling him to look to the left (four seconds) and then to the right (four seconds). I followed and counted for him. Perfect turns for about 75 yards. Kid did not know his left from his right but the turns were perfect regardless. 2 minutes and a possible private lesson client per dad's comment.

Oh and don't forget to try this simple approach with ADHD, OCD and Asburger Autistic kids. It works for the ones I have encountered perfectly. One only gave me 15 second attention periods every two minutes. So the next time this 7 yr old showed up I had big doll eyes on my knees facing slightly forward and jiggle bells on my boots. Got her attention and did the same on her. Put her through the drill and rode fakey infront asking to see her eyes and hear her bells. Torque (eyes) and edge control (bells). At seven she looked up at me and said "I love my bells, I love my eyes". She is now 10, loves boarding and still gets a kick out of my (knee) eyes that have become permanent. The bells were too wierd although effective for her in understaninding edge control. I discovered the larger bell required just the right bounce to set the edge and ring the bells. I have since gotten her three younger siblings as private students.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
Philthrills you said: "All ages? It's been my experience that very few kids under age 7 are able to do much of anything besides surfing on the back foot. Other than that, I agree with this."
Ah, that was me not Phil. My teaching technique with little people has been more "do this" then "do .......". I am a firm believer in hands on teaching techniques. Since our resort now only teaches <7 yo riders via private, it may be a while before I can try curtsies in my lessons for little people.

But thanks!

Although I still believe that there is a lower age limit, I have taught 3 yo's to ride and I have seen a 9 month old learning to ski. I have not seen <7 yo's on the Burton LTR boards. Having flexible rides may be the key that's been missing from my experience. Having additional teaching tactics will help too.
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
...Oh and don't forget to try this simple approach with ADHD, OCD and Asburger Autistic kids. It works for the ones I have encountered perfectly...
The Asperger's/OCD etc. stuff and the response of these kids to riding sideways (and ability to learn) I find really fascinating. Don't know if http://surfershealing.com/ and similar efforts have been mentioned on here yet, or not. Definitely a lot going on with the sideways movement thing.
post #22 of 22
Thanks for the autistic surfing link. I will share it with the parent of one of my students, the 7 yr. old. Now back to how her very tiny 6 yo brother learned to carve turns last year. I was working with the sister when I noticed her tiny brother three hours into a morning program and not making any turns of any kind.

I am not personally focused on the sideway motion. I do believe that an easy to learn, repetitive body movement that delivers a predictable outcome does have merit. By brain pattern teaching this one easy body movement of down, up forward and down again look at what we accomplish. (remember the importance of head and shoulder engagement.)

We harness energy in motion and direct it per the board's design both parabolic and torsional.
Energize the board's camber.
Release the energy out the tail.
Unweight the tail
Set a leading edge.
Torque the board.
Unweight the outside edge
Bring the body balance into the turn over the working edge.
keep the body in the proper riding position.

What more can you want without having to explain the 7 or more components of a turn?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav: