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Moving into the new turn - Page 3

post #61 of 86
I think maybe so. This is a very very subtle difference, and in the end it might not matter: I can easily get inside a turn without a pole plant - there are tons of drills that don't use poles to try to accomplish this...

But, can I just as easily get re-centered without using poles?

If the pole plant leads the CM into the new turn in such a way that you can apply shovel pressure, then it brings you forwards and recenters you.

What I'm thinking is that the release of the CM from it's arc is what actually provides the lateral movement, not the pole plant, which moves you forwards.

Your comments about leading the CM with the pole plant sounds like a directive that can take care of both things -- a cue for lateral movement and a recentering action.
post #62 of 86
Your right, almost impossible to recenter with out pole plant and yes pretty darn easy to get inside without planting.

But are getting inside and driving upper body downhill or in the direction of new turn the same? It seems the steeper it is the more this is needed.
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Your right, almost impossible to recenter with out pole plant and yes pretty darn easy to get inside without planting.

But are getting inside and driving upper body downhill or in the direction of new turn the same? It seems the steepest it is the more this is needed.
Designing a turn in order to scribe your edges.
post #64 of 86
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIPwEFFd78

Hosp GS, wide range of turn shapes & due to way video was shot good look at different uses of counter.

Poleplants generally near tips, could be straight out of Gurshman.

Gurshman: "Back to Aamodt’s pole plant sequence. We can see in frame 3 that the pole is being planted almost vertically in the area of the ski tips."
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVIPwEFFd78

Hosp GS, wide range of turn shapes & due to way video was shot good look at different uses of counter.

Poleplants generally near tips, could be straight out of Gurshman.

Gurshman: "Back to Aamodt’s pole plant sequence.
Quote:
We can see in frame 3 that the pole (that would be poles) is being planted almost vertically in the area of the ski tips.
"
that is a completely different situation then what I have been talking about in that

#1) It is a double pole plant and obviously it's purpose as BigE stated is a strong recentering.

#2 ) it is slalom, and he is skiing directly down the fall line, not across it on a steep pitch. On a steep pitch moving across the hill is where i commented on planting down from the boot.
post #66 of 86
It's a single pole plant, not a double.

The discussion of counter was more interesting though.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
It's a single pole plant, not a double.

The discussion of counter was more interesting though.
anything is more interesting then a discussion with you!

It's a double, look again! We'll just have to agree to disagree per usual.
post #68 of 86
You're confused by the fact that he brings both arms forward, that's just plain good technique. Only the right pole touches, as you can see from the snow.

I certainly understand why Ski Coach got tired of this stuff and stopped posting though, that's for sure.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
You're confused by the fact that he brings both arms forward, that's just plain good technique. Only the right pole touches, as you can see from the snow.

I certainly understand why Ski Coach got tired of this stuff and stopped posting though, that's for sure.
Aw, that really hurt my feelings!:

OK Fine for grins let's say it is a single pole plant with excellent technique.


It still does not change the fact that turn is directly in the fall line. Not the scenario I have described in this or other posts on the subject.
post #70 of 86
I was thinking about Rick's "rotational shift" and the idea of setting up the counter before turning. Going through the movements in my mind, I am wondering if this movement couldn't be a panacea or compensation for a poorly guided path of the cm across the skis. If we fail to move efficiently across the skis there may be a need for this kind of conscious movement to help pull the hips inside the turn and/or pressure the tips?

It would seem if the hips move laterally efficiently and the edges are engaged early in the turn, there is no benefit to an arbitrary pre countering of the hips?

I think this whole concept could just be a compensatory move for a mistake or inefficient movement which requires an adjustment to get back on track.

Just a thought?
b
post #71 of 86
I'm debating whether I should continue with this.

No offense, VSP and Bud, but you guys seem locked into your perspectives, so it makes little sense pursuing this further. I don't do this to win,, I do it to help. If you're happy with where you're at, so am I.

If anyone reading this has any questions and would like to discuss this with me further, I'll be more than happy to jump back in and offer my assistance.
post #72 of 86
Rick,

I'd rotate the pelvis around the inside hip, driving the outside hip forwards. It's way more like walking.
post #73 of 86
Big E,, are your talking about driving the OLD outside hip forward during the transition?
post #74 of 86
BigE, I assume you are referring to the inside and outside of the old turn, yes? This is the good ol' gait mechanics thing. Right?

So I'm taking it that the point you're making is that you would rather see the early counter setup through a gait with early stance on the new outside foot. I get the mental image of that, but I'm not quit exactly sure what muscles are involved in this kind of movement, as opposed to the core directed waist steering which Rick has suggested. I'm open minded at this point about both approaches.

One thing that comes to mind as a possible downfall of the stance foot gait, is that care has to be made not to over-extend that leg too quickly or push on it too hard to the point of skidding out the edge before a firm edge has been established. It seems to me that the leverge used for the gait is against that new stance foot and its being done before angulation and counter has been established. Some force is being pushed in some direction into the snow in order for the gait to happen. Its not entirely clear to me right now what the vector of that would be or the unintended consequences.

The core driven rotation, on the other hand uses the core muscles to twist around a center axis in the body instead of pushing off the snow surface. One concern I have had about this approach is that even a twisting movement that would move the hips rotationally, requires that there be an equal and opposite force somewhere in the opposite direction. So would that equate to lower body rotation happening?
post #75 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Big E,, are your talking about driving the OLD outside hip forward during the transition?
Yep - the hip connected to the swing leg will be driven forward through transition and rotates around the stance leg to establish counter prior to the "heel strike" in the new turn.
post #76 of 86
By VSP
Quote:
I concur with many of your ideas, but I still take exception to one. The idea of actively twisting/rotating the torso toward the outside of the turn, as compared to the ski turning below a stable torso is where you and I differ.

I consider the pelvis to be part of the torso/ upper body. The lower body begins at the hip joint.
By Rick

Quote:
Ric,,, we're not that far apart. We're seeing the same thing, just defining how it happens differently. You see the development of counter in a turn as a "stable torso" because it appears to you to remain orientated in the same compass direction while the direction of the skis change through the turn.
I have been wondering how to enter a discussion on the very subject that is being discussed here for fear of being blasted because I could not explain well enough what I am doing.

I have been working on this very transition for the time the ski hill has been open this year. For the last few years I have been trying to rectify things that were said to me by Mike Rogan with the bulk of the examiners. A discussion by Bud H in an earlier thread this winter set off the light bulb when he said the words “Ski into anticipation”.

I am convinced that it is possible to be both what Rick says and what Bud H and VSP say.

About 4 years ago Mike Rogan showed me Ricks hip movement as a pre turn exaggeration and claimed it was the key to getting a very smooth progressive edge high in the turn. That movement was totally backwards to everything I had heard up to that point.

I have managed to get a very smooth transition and what I call “The Mike Rogan turn” over the last four years. One thing was still bothersome at times and showed up in very finished swooping turns at low speeds. That problem was the occasional lag in the inside foot that gave me a momentary feeling of disconnect right at turn transition.

What I have sense come to realize is that on can ski the skis back under the upper body into a state of anticipation but with the hips more aligned with the skis than the upper body. I feel a slight tension through the oblique muscles at the core when I do this.

That slight twist is very small in the torso and is much more intense in shorter radius turns. That when release right at transition the energy from that slight twist is transferred through the core right to the inside ski and bammo, no little disconnect on the new inside ski. In fact there is a big feeling of power even in slow turns out of the top of the turn.

So am I saying that the hips are not part of the torso? No what I am saying is that the hips are part of the torso 97% but what Rick says about that little hip twist/projection is also correct and was shown to me by Mike Rogan four years ago.

I probably should not say little twist because in reality you ski into that little twist with the skis against a stable upper body instead of originating that twist as an upper body movement. To say it another way the hips follow the skis a little more that the torso.

That is my current understanding as of about two weeks ago. Trying to teach this is fraught with problems like asking for rotation or counter rotation. Its not something I would share with a student under level 9
post #77 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
One thing that comes to mind as (1) a possible downfall of the stance foot gait, is that care has to be made not to over-extend that leg too quickly or push on it too hard to the point of skidding out the edge before a firm edge has been established. (2) It seems to me that the leverge used for the gait is against that new stance foot and its being done before angulation and counter has been established. (3) Some force is being pushed in some direction into the snow in order for the gait to happen. Its not entirely clear to me right now what the vector of that would be or the unintended consequences.

The core driven rotation, on the other hand uses the core muscles to twist around a center axis in the body instead of pushing off the snow surface. One concern I have had about this approach is that even a twisting movement that would move the hips rotationally, requires that there be an equal and opposite force somewhere in the opposite direction. So would that equate to lower body rotation happening?
(1) is not a real concern.
(2) and (3) seem to imply that say the left foot pushes off in a right turn. Certainly the "gait" begins prior to the establishement of counter, it's what unwinds the counter in the previous turn, and establishes the counter in the new turn, but there is no push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE as a sidebar within this post
The confusion might occur by where you assign the moment of "heel strike". Let's for a moment define the turn as three phases: Edging, loading, unloading.

During normal walking your swing leg becomes the stance leg when it gets fully loaded. The "heel strike" occurs just as loading begins.

Applying gait mechanics to skiing implies that the the loading phase of the turn is also where the heel strike occurs.

At this point, the swing leg, (the new inside ski) has been rolled onto edge (inverted) and is ready to accept load. The orientation of the CM, behind the inside foot, and inside the turn stops the foot from everting(pronating) so that loads can be established.

As the turn develops, weight remains dominant over the outside ski, but the inside ski will share some of that load. The positioning of the feet is countered relative to the reaction force of the snow.

The "stacked" position of the hips/shoulders above the feet shows as alignment of the feet, hips and shoulders in parallel planes (considering angulation), but the skis are pointing in the direction of travel.

OK, so we're countered. What muscles drove the swing leg into position? And how quickly was this inside hip lead established?

As the turn continues to develop, loads increase, and eventually, you'll want to complete the turn -- the unloading phase will begin. This phase is marked by the reduction of load on the dominant outside ski. Weight transfer to the inside ski occurs and the outside leg becomes the swing leg. Remember though, this starts when we are still countered.
Counter will vanish once the outside leg is unweighted, and the inside ski becomes the stance leg. The body will naturally realign to become square to the stance leg. This is natural, and requires no effort.

Of course this will take some time. Time that you will not usually have at your disposal *. Consequently, you must provide the rotational adjustment to help establish counter for the new turn.

What muscles must you use?

* , unless you're cruising wide runs.
post #78 of 86
Big E, good posts. Yep, you got it, rotate around the old inside/new outside hip. Check out this link. Pan down to the "Freeskiing" collection of videos and click onto the one of Eric Guay. (hint, play it full screen, it shows things much better)
http://www.youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm

Guay show beautifully the move you and I are talking about. He transfers pressure to the old inside leg via Inside Leg Extension,,, then with the old outside leg lightened and free to swing, drives the old outside hip forward with core power. In fact, you can even see the old outside ski lift up and move forward as he makes the move.
post #79 of 86
BorntoSki,,, I believe BigE is advocating the same power source for his move,,, the core. He can correct me if I'm wrong. Even though it's coined "gate mechanics", in skiing it's still powered by the core. Not the same leg swing centered idea of actual walking. In skiing the leg follows the lead of the core/pelvis.
post #80 of 86
Pierre,,, I'll go along with that. A little rotational separation between the pelvis and torso is fine. Just as long as it doesn't get overdone, becuase too much rotational torsion can compromise stance strength.

The important issue is to get that intitial counter early so that the outside foot gets pronated early at turn initiation, which gets the outside ski solidly engaged.

It also jump starts the motion sequence that will allow high edge angle creation (that being the development of fore driven counter) later in the turn.

This is so important, and a hurdle for so many skiers who just can't seem to get the skis up on a high edge. Following the skis (pelvis and feet rotationally aligned) is the status quo for lower level skiers, and it keeps them from attaining the big body angles needed to attain high edge angles.

Imagine a person standing on a moving merry-go-round. The platform they're standing on represent the turning skis. A personal would typically just stand there remaining faced in the direction of his/her feet as the merry-go-round (and their feet) turns.

This is the norm for low level skiers too. They just follow their skis with there bodies as the skis turn. Developing counter in an efficient manner is a learned skill,,, and a necessary skill if skiers are to advance.
post #81 of 86
I must have learned it without ever realizing it. It just seems kinda natural to me, like standing statically and picking up one foot to balance. When I do this my hip naturally tilts and rotates. It is not a concious effort for me. I don't doubt it happens but I do not consciously rotate my hip before I pick up my foot? Should I?

b
post #82 of 86
Excellent video Rick
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Pierre,,, I'll go along with that. A little rotational separation between the pelvis and torso is fine. Just as long as it doesn't get overdone, becuase too much rotational torsion can compromise stance strength.
You are wise to be cautious. The differences in movement are small and missed by most skiers even when being shown by someone with experience.
post #84 of 86
So is it a progression of turns and ever increasing angles of the body and skis that obtains the highest edge angles. Is there more pressure after transition on the outside ski to start the turn and then progressive movements to engage your inside ski? My tracks tend to show more pressure on the outside ski.:
post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
BorntoSki,,, I believe BigE is advocating the same power source for his move,,, the core. He can correct me if I'm wrong. Even though it's coined "gate mechanics", in skiing it's still powered by the core. Not the same leg swing centered idea of actual walking. In skiing the leg follows the lead of the core/pelvis.
post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
So is it a progression of turns and ever increasing angles of the body and skis that obtains the highest edge angles. Is there more pressure after transition on the outside ski to start the turn and then progressive movements to engage your inside ski? My tracks tend to show more pressure on the outside ski.:
Yes. Progressive engagement and pressuring of the inside ski begins at "heel strike" and ends when it becomes the stance leg. Of course, the pressure rise is not necesarily linear, af may even be incomplete, that depends on intent.
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