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Tips From the Aspen ESA - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Weems, you're pretty mouthy this morning.

Sure you are, but what am I?
post #32 of 53
I, for one, appreciate those good posts Weems! I know I like to bank as much as I can get away with and angulate when neccessary, but then I am lazy.....Like you said, if my tires are gripping well, take full advantage of it!

This was all week long in Aspen! Your snow that week was so grippy that we could get some pretty sick edge angles. Had it been the East Coast, I would suspect the images would have been drastically different.

bud
post #33 of 53
Thanks weems for the explanation. When I will get some ESA video of my skiing on groomed I need to look at it closely. When I ski, I feel like I am going to fall inside if I just bank. It seems that a little angulation (just a little bit, not the old school crazyness) helps me a lot. Need to experiment, I guess.
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
I don't think that "weighted release" means what we have commonly thought about weighting & releasing. Having begun to dive into one of HH's books I think I may understand what he means with this term. I am of the belief that weighted release means at the transition into the new turn there is no "classic" unweighting. We do not need to extend (or flex for that matter) to lighten the skis in order to turn them.
Carvelust, how about some input here. Or any other well studied PMTS students.
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
I am of the belief that weighted release means at the transition into the new turn there is no "classic" unweighting. We do not need to extend (or flex for that matter) to lighten the skis in order to turn them.
In PMTS the weighted release is started by relaxing the outside leg. Then you tip the outside foot (your new inside foot) to the LTE while it is still weighted. You don't pressure the new outside ski until the CM has moved into the new turn.
post #36 of 53
I'll say it again, but only once more. Just tipping a weighted old outside foot down the hill won't move the CM across the skis on it's own. It will only work if one of two other things accompanying actions take place.

1) Tension is maintained such that said tipping causes the CM to be pulled across the skis with the tipping. In essence, the skier physically pulls hirself into the new turn. (the white pass lean)

2) That tipping causes the old outside leg to shorten, and pressure is allowed to transfer to the old inside ski, which creates a state of imbalance that allows the turn forces of the previous turn to supply the power to move the CM across the skis and into the new turn.

Option two in the more efficient, as existing external forces are being harnessed to do the work, rather than having to generate the forces oneself, as is done in option one. But, either 1 or 2 beat option 3. That being tipping the old outside foot without pulling the CM across, or transferring pressure. Do that, do option 3, and you'll be taking a quick journey to the snow.

And there is another way. A very simple alternative. Just push down slightly on the inside foot. The needed pressure transfer will take place, the old turn forces will drive the CM across the skis, and the tipping can be allowed to happen as a passive result.

The harder you push down on the old inside foot, the faster the CM movement into the new turn will take place. In other words, you control the speed of the transition by how hard you push down.
post #37 of 53
Rick, FWIW the weighted release feels almost effortless to me. Certainly I don't ever feel like I'm pulling the CM in to the new turn. As soon as I relax and tip my outside leg and foot my CM just moves right into the new turn.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
In PMTS the weighted release is started by relaxing the outside leg. Then you tip the outside foot (your new inside foot) to the LTE while it is still weighted. You don't pressure the new outside ski until the CM has moved into the new turn.
This conforms to my past understanding. Thanks, Max.
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Rick, FWIW the weighted release feels almost effortless to me. Certainly I don't ever feel like I'm pulling the CM in to the new turn. As soon as I relax and tip my outside leg and foot my CM just moves right into the new turn.
Max, when you do these, do you do them with both skis on the snow, or with the old inside foot held off the snow at all times, from prior to the transition until you engage it in the new turn?
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Max, when you do these, do you do them with both skis on the snow, or with the old inside foot held off the snow at all times, from prior to the transition until you engage it in the new turn?
Both ways. If I'm showing someone how to do it I always lift the ski so they can see what I'm doing.
post #41 of 53
Regarding banking vs. angulating--remember that it is not a question of choosing between equivalent options, or which one is "in vogue" at the moment. Both affect edge angle, and both affect balance, but the two movements serve disparate purposes, and we do them for different reasons.

Pure Banking (meaning the whole body leaning into the turn without bending sideways appreciably at the ankles, knees, hips, or spine) provides the "inclination" needed to balance in a turn with minimal tipping of the skis. Edge angle comes entirely from the angle of the body's tilt.

If pure banking provides sufficient edge angle, then there is no point in "angulating" to create more edge angle. More often than not, banking alone is not enough, so we create angles in the feet, knees, hips, and/or spine. In other words, we tip our legs and skis further into the turn, and tip our upper body the other way to compensate and remain in balance.

The critical point is that banking is a question of balance, so it is not something we can adjust on a whim. For any point in a given turn, there is a particular angle of lean that results in balance.

If I'm in balance and I need more edge angle, I can tip my skis further, but I will need to tip my upper body simultaneously the other way if I want to remain in balance. In other words, if I need more edge angle, I must angulate.

I prefer to think of "inclining" (tipping the center of mass into a turn) as a balancing move, and "angulating" (bending sideways) as an edge-control move. We incline in many activities where edging is not important--walking, running, flying, riding a bicycle. And if you stand up and decide you need to tip your feet on edge, you will need to create some kind of angulation to accomplish it (no fair leaning on something). But it is equally sensible to think of tipping the feet to get them on edge and then angulating to keep your balance. Either definition works, as long as we're clear on the two different meanings of "incline" and "angulate."

So what? With today's deep sidecut skis and precise peformance boots, "edge control" plays a more important role than ever in skiing. On our old straight skis, the rule for most turns was simple: the more edge angle the better. Tipped high enough (and pressured appropriately), even a ski with a 60 meter sidecut will bend into an arc that will carve a usable turn.

Today it's not so simple. Today's skis are hypersensitive to edge angle, and a little change produces big results. Today precise management of edge angles throughout the turn is critical for optimum ski performance, and more is not always better. When performance is at stake, great skiers blend inclination and angulation in a harmonious dance as the situation demands. It is a mistake to predetermine whether we "should bank or angulate," or how much angulation we should use, based on some dogmatic rule, personal preference, or trend. "Rules" like "keep your shoulders parallel to the slope" or "reach low with your outside hand," meant to create greater angulation, are still great focuses to play with, but like most exercises, we must leave them behind when skiing for performance!

Here are a few points to ponder.
  1. In our PSIA-Rocky Mountain Full Certification (Level 3) exam, instructors must perform both short-radius and medium-radius turns with maximum ski performance (minimum skidding, maximum caving). If you're on an all-mountain or GS ski with a moderate sidecut, you will need much higher edge angles than someone on a slalom ski for the short-radius turns. The slalom skier may bank a lot, but you'll need to create some angles. Conversely, in the GS turns, gentle angulation may be sufficient for you, but the slalom skier will struggle to reduce edge angle to the minimum needed to hold. Excess angulation will either make the ski carve less cleanly, or tighten the radius to too small a turn. (The maximum radius a ski can theoretically carve cleanly on hard snow is its sidecut radius. Tipping the ski shortens the carve radius according the formula "carve radius = sidecut radius X cosine of edge angle on snow" [thanks, Tom/PhysicsMan!]).
  2. Contrary to common belief, increasing edge angle does not necessarily make a ski hold better, and it can cause it to hold worse. Tipped too far, a ski may bend to an arc tighter than the turn you are trying to make, forcing the tip and tail to grab and claw at the snow, losing their grip. If you feel a ski starting to lose its grip and you tip it more, it may tighten the turn radius, further increasing the centrifgual force that is trying to pull you out of the turn. While "conventional wisdom" suggests increasing angulation and edge angle as the turn progresses, it's easy to see why this movement often produces the opposite of the intended effect, causing skis to break away at the bottom of the turn!
  3. There are two important ways to describe edge angle--relative to the snow surface, and relative to the direction of the force we apply to the ski. We control these two things independently, and they serve different purposes. Edge angle on the snow determines carving radius, as I described above (at least on hard snow). Edge angle relative to the force applied determines whether a ski holds or not. You can feel this easily, simply by standing across a slope and rolling your feet and ankles slightly to cause your skis to release or grip. If you lean on your pole to allow you to "bank" and try it again, the angle of the skis on the snow will clearly be greater (so they'd carve a tighter turn if you were moving), but the same subtle foot/ankle movements will still cause them to hold or release. (Note--if it takes more than just foot/ankle movements--if you must angulate in your knees or hips to release or hold, then either your skis aren't sharp enough or--more likely--your alignment and boot setup needs work!)
All right--you've pondered these things long enough. Now go out and ski! (I have an excuse--bad cold and severe laryngitis. Make some turns for me!)



Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
But most of the time, if you find that you need to force that crossover to initiate the turn, it betrays an error in the previous turn--the error commonly called "park and ride." If you move accurately through the finish of the turn, your body is already moving across your skis toward the next turn as you exit the turn. You don't have to "do" anything but let the flow of motion already in play continue. The need to force this movement to start the turn suggests that you've stopped moving, "parking" inside the previous turn. Retracting the downhill leg, or extending the uphill leg (either of which may result in the downhill ski coming off the snow), will patch the error, but it won't eliminate it!
This matches my understanding. Bob said it better than I could, and he certainly does it better! I am often guilty of "park and ride" and find myself making the required patch. Still, I also get it right sometimes, and the flow of my CM (or COM, if you're CSIA) down the hill allows the release and the pressure transfer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Tipping the old outside foot downhill reduces edge angle. Reducing edge angle lowers the amount of centrifugal force acting on the CM. At that moment the skier becomes out of balance, and unless pressure is intentionally transferred away from the old outside foot and onto the old inside foot via old inside leg contraction, the skier will swiftly find him/herself grooming the snow with their inside hip.
If I reduced edge angle without allowing my CM to move over my skis, then, yes, I would find myself doing a hip check. However, (and maybe this is because I am old and stiff, or maybe it's just fear of falling), to reduce edge angle "nicely" through a progressive transition and release, I have to allow my knees, hips and CM to move down the hill. Everything has to work together. If I'm moving accurately, this can happen without transferring pressure to my old inside foot.

And allowing my CM to move down the hill reduces the amount of centrifugal force required. Again, it does it without transferring pressure from one foot to the other. Watch an expert 3-tracker sometime.

Am I missing something? I put these quotes together because Bob said explicitly, "If you move accurately through the finish of the turn, your body is already moving across your skis toward the next turn as you exit the turn." I believe that, in a nutshell, allows release without pressure transfer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
And no to this being weighted release. Can't be, because in weighted release the old inside/new outside ski never feels pressure until CM crossing has occurred.
I just think Steve wasn't verbose enough. I suspect the move of the CM through the finish of the turn as described by Bob was assumed. And yes, with a weighted release the new outside ski is not pressured until the CM crosses the skis and the turn begins to develop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Weighted release requires muscular involvement in making CM crossing take place.
True, in that I may relax or retract to simply allow the CM to go downhill. That indeed requires muscular involvement, but assuming my goal is a certain "purity" in my turn, I try to avoid making the CM cross the skis.

I might also suggest that intent enters into the picture. I lack the skill level of many others in this forum, so I tend to find that pure relaxing and allowing tends to create a somewhat larger turn radius, and the turns, while looking and feeling elegant and smooth, seem to lack energy and spark. This can be traced (for me) to not enough involvement of the inside foot, balance inaccuracies, and, as noted above, a tendency to park and ride. I get lazy. Adding more energy by, for example, sacrificing a pure weighted release for one that deliberately creates an early, active, pressure transfer, makes the appearance much more dynamic and sets me up for a much shorter turn radius. If I do this, though, I have to be careful to avoid other errors that can arise, such as an uphill move and/or a tail push. Even with an early, active pressure transfer, I want to feel both feet very solidly on the snow all the way through the transition.

The usual caveats apply. Just because I'm this inept doesn't mean any of this applies to you!
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I'll say it again, but only once more. Just tipping a weighted old outside foot down the hill won't move the CM across the skis on it's own. It will only work if one of two other things accompanying actions take place.

1) Tension is maintained such that said tipping causes the CM to be pulled across the skis with the tipping. In essence, the skier physically pulls hirself into the new turn. (the white pass lean)

2) That tipping causes the old outside leg to shorten, and pressure is allowed to transfer to the old inside ski, which creates a state of imbalance that allows the turn forces of the previous turn to supply the power to move the CM across the skis and into the new turn.

Option two in the more efficient, as existing external forces are being harnessed to do the work, rather than having to generate the forces oneself, as is done in option one. But, either 1 or 2 beat option 3. That being tipping the old outside foot without pulling the CM across, or transferring pressure. Do that, do option 3, and you'll be taking a quick journey to the snow.

And there is another way. A very simple alternative. Just push down slightly on the inside foot. The needed pressure transfer will take place, the old turn forces will drive the CM across the skis, and the tipping can be allowed to happen as a passive result.

The harder you push down on the old inside foot, the faster the CM movement into the new turn will take place. In other words, you control the speed of the transition by how hard you push down.
Rick, thanks for taking the time you do to contribute to those who read your stuff here on EpicSki! Your insights are exceptional, and your ability to differentiate physical concepts in textual language is highly developed. Thanks.

I get it.
post #44 of 53
Bob Barnes: Now go out and ski! (I have an excuse--bad cold and severe laryngitis. Make some turns for me!)

Thanks Bob for the explanation. I think I like your approach to blend as needed. Get well soon. Here in Toronto we skied this weekend through some nasty cold weather and very high winds. Temps were around 0F (-22F with the wind chill).

Despite the cold weather we got about a foot of snow north of the city, so there were some benefits. Boy, that Colorado weather sure seems like a fantasy right about now.
post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
I prefer to think of "inclining" (tipping the center of mass into a turn) as a balancing move, and "angulating" (bending sideways) as an edge-control move. We incline in many activities where edging is not important--walking, running, flying, riding a bicycle. And if you stand up and decide you need to tip your feet on edge, you will need to create some kind of angulation to accomplish it (no fair leaning on something). But it is equally sensible to think of tipping the feet to get them on edge and then angulating to keep your balance. Either definition works, as long as we're clear on the two different meanings of "incline" and "angulate."
...
Best regards,
Bob Barnes
I guess I prefer the first one, i.e.: "if you stand up and decide you need to tip your feet on edge, you will need to create some kind of angulation to accomplish it," for the following reason:
Instead of thinking of tipping the feet and then angulating, suppose we consider tipping the feet and simply keeping the upper body stable. At this stage of the game, we haven't moved the feet out from under the upper body. We're tipping them, but they're still in the same place on the floor/ground/snow. We avoid the extra movement implied by "tip, then angulate."

This is, admittedly, a static example, and I'm sure I'm missing something conceptually.

If we take this idea of upper body stability into a ski turn, is it possible to think of tipping the feet and angulating as the turn develops and the CM moves into the turn (thus keeping the upper body relatively stable compared to dynamic feet and knees), rather than inclining and then angulating back? It seems to me that the idea of balancing through inclining and then angulating to adjust edge angle implies extra upper body movement.

I'm probably interpreting this incorrectly.

If I'm not completely out in left field (a position generously offered to me whenever I played baseball as a child), can we use this concept to allow an appropriate simultaneous blend of inclination and angulation so that the upper body (that there fat heavy part, including the fat head ) doesn't wave back and forth more than necessary, and we are, at any given point in the turn, balanced and angulated in a way that allows us to easily adjust edge angles in either direction? (Jeeze, what a ridiculously long question!!) Or am I completely whacked?

Of course, if we decide to try to adhere to hard and fast rules about what constitutes the "appropriate simultaneous blend," we'll be asking for trouble, especially when we leave the corduroy.
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Thanks weems for the explanation. When I will get some ESA video of my skiing on groomed I need to look at it closely. When I ski, I feel like I am going to fall inside if I just bank. It seems that a little angulation (just a little bit, not the old school crazyness) helps me a lot. Need to experiment, I guess.
GO FASTER TOM, GO FASTER!

You will fall inside if you incline too much and/or do not drive the shovels a bit or do not use some angulation to balance on the edge. We used to call this falling to the inside "banking" which had a negative conotation. I don't know if this is still so???

I think using inclination at the top of the turn is a passive way to balance against the forces but is only a momentary sensation followed shortly by angulation to make balancing adjustments throughout the latter parts of the turns. When there is ample deflection available it can last just a bit longer.
IMO.
post #47 of 53
Yes, I agree with you, jhcooley--thinking of tipping the legs and skis and then angulating the upper body does seem to suggest one thing at a time, when the reality is it is an instantaneous and simultaneous movement. To me, it is simpler and less confusing to think of inclination as a balancing movement, and angulation as an edge control movement. But I know that some others (Rick, for one) have stated a clear preference for the alternate perspective. They both work.

And I must admit that often in fast carved turns, it feels like I'm trying to hold my edge angle steady while making constant subtle angulating movements of my upper body and arms to keep in balance.

Whatever paints the picture!

Best regards,
Bob
post #48 of 53
Bud--I think that's when banking really does deserve its bad reputation--when it results from starting turns with your upper body. That's usually a mistake! It's the opposite of the movements that originate in the feet, low in the kinetic chain, that offer the fine, precise control needed for great skiing.

It's hard to forget Jim Lindsay's demonstration of fine vs. gross muscle movements at the EpicSki Academy, isn't it? Hillarious watching people try to write their names with pencils held in their elbows and armpits! (I was glad he stopped there--wasn't sure where the next place he was going to ask people to stick that pencil was going to be. . . .)



Best regards,
Bob
post #49 of 53
Reminds me of a certain stick figure montage.......:
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
I don't get it...

Who cares what it's called? Who cares who did it first or when? What difference does any of that make?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
This is what bugs me about proprietary claims about commonplace exercises: the proprietary argument only works on those with short memories or short histories in the sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
History of skiing
First of all I thought it was pretty funny to ask the question. There has certainly been a lot of poo pooing and distortion of the purpose and value of the phantom turn concept by people on these forums.What was telling was how quick to rise the usual posters were.

In skiing nothing changes and everything changes. Instructors are using the same drills they were 50 years ago. I don't dispute that. Nowhere was I saying that Harb owned the move itself.What has changed is the presentation. So in recent presentation history there were many that were emphasing widening the stance to "functional" and there were some that were teaching the Phantom Turn. ::::

I'm going back to talking about how rotary is the demise of new skiers now
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
There has certainly been a lot of poo pooing and distortion of the purpose and value of the phantom turn concept by people on these forums.
Actually, I don't think there has been much poo pooing of the phantom turn as one of many concepts.
You will find much more about the concept of it being the one and only way to turn.
post #52 of 53
Bud: GO FASTER TOM, GO FASTER!

My "equipment" is holding me back (sounds sooo much better than "my courage is holding me back).
post #53 of 53
Quote:
There has certainly been a lot of poo pooing and distortion of the purpose and value of the phantom turn concept by people on these forums.
Where?
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