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Ceramic Stone vs Diamonds - its not the same!

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Hi I'm not sure if my racing shop (Denifl) just completely took me for a fool or if their great experience in tuning the skis of Europcup and Worldcup competitors holds true. They told me the following for side edge finishing and polishing:

Diamond stone /Arkansas Stone: A diamond stone is used to polish the edge only, you can exchange it against arkansas stones or edge finishers with very fine stick on sandpapers. According to their experience Diamand stones hold up longer than the extra hard arkansas stone used with honing oil but it is personal preference. Expect to get 50-60 polishes from a wet diamond stone if following up a 150 file. Slightly less if following a 200 file. If using a hard metal Vallorbe Icecut file (their big bucks at around 60€ compared to 10€ for the normal Icecut professional file but are supposed to have a 10 times superior lifetime) you can get around 200 polishes from one wet diamond stone.

Ceramic stone: Use it only after having the edge polished as it will not polish the edge but it will press the edge together and harden it. Use a ceramic stone with your normal fixed angle or even better use special tools (they call it ski sharp pro) and run over your edge with medium to lots of pressure. Watch out to run very consistent without stopping and 2 passes maximum. Ceramic stones hold up several years.

Magnet File/ Steel Jet - Metal Jet:
Now its time to use a magnet file for polishing before putting on your steel jet with a polishing block and then finally your metal jet with a seperate polishing block to have an edge that shines and can be used as a mirror. This last step is only needed for professional racers as it does not make the edge any sharper but faster so that you gain that additional 10th of a second in a DH or SG, according to Denif staff.

Any comments about this?
post #2 of 17
Maybe I am dense but what is it that you are asking?
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
I'm asking if the statement above is true - cause if you read here in the tuning section everyone puts ceramic stone equal to diamond stone/arkansas
post #4 of 17
that is what i thought.

I don't think I lumped them together.

Diamonds are for the initial polishing after filing, progressively going finer & finer to smooth out the previous coarser grit.

Arkansas or ceramics or alu-oxide are used for final polishing after the diamond progression.

And there are prgressively finer ceramics alos but I would still only use those after at least a 200 & 400 or 400 & 600 grit diamond stone.

Any of the hardstones (not the diamonds) though can be used to remove the hanging burr caused from side edge work. or a very hard gummi or dressing block.
post #5 of 17
Thread Starter 
Well what they told me is that you don't use the ceramic as exchange for Arkansas or to remove hanging burr but to "press the edge together and harden it" - therefore your supposed to use quite a lot of force with the ceramic stone. It's too hard and flat to remove any burrs. It's not finishing but polishing.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
Well what they told me is that you don't use the ceramic as exchange for Arkansas or to remove hanging burr but to "press the edge together and harden it" - therefore your supposed to use quite a lot of force with the ceramic stone. It's too hard and flat to remove any burrs. It's not finishing but polishing.
splitting hairs. it works just fine for knocking off a hanging burr. Although i use a very hard gritty gummi most of the time.

Most recreational skiers don't need this degree of polishing anyway!
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
"press the edge together and harden it"
Okay, I'm not a metallurgist, but ... does anyone really think you can "press" steel together and make it harder? With your hand?

You can polish a steel surface, which I think you do by rubbing it with something abrasive but smooth, so as to grind down any irregularities or striations in the surface. The "something" could be a fine powder of tiny diamonds attached to a metal base (a diamond stone), or a fine powder of tiny synthetic sapphires embedded in ceramic (a ceramic stone), or a quarried stone that naturally has a fine powder of tiny crystals in it (an Arkansas stone or some other natural stone).
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
Okay, I'm not a metallurgist, but ... does anyone really think you can "press" steel together and make it harder? With your hand?

You can polish a steel surface, which I think you do by rubbing it with something abrasive but smooth, so as to grind down any irregularities or striations in the surface. The "something" could be a fine powder of tiny diamonds attached to a metal base (a diamond stone), or a fine powder of tiny synthetic sapphires embedded in ceramic (a ceramic stone), or a quarried stone that naturally has a fine powder of tiny crystals in it (an Arkansas stone or some other natural stone).
The voice of reason, as usual!
post #9 of 17
polishing can remove very small irregularities in the steel which can be looked at as stress concentrations.

this website i just found:

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...Hardening.html

explains steel working pretty well.

sp no you cant harden steel on the workbench. but you can remove possible stress concentrations which leads to a more durable edge.
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
Okay, I'm not a metallurgist, but ... does anyone really think you can "press" steel together and make it harder? With your hand?

You can polish a steel surface, which I think you do by rubbing it with something abrasive but smooth, so as to grind down any irregularities or striations in the surface. The "something" could be a fine powder of tiny diamonds attached to a metal base (a diamond stone), or a fine powder of tiny synthetic sapphires embedded in ceramic (a ceramic stone), or a quarried stone that naturally has a fine powder of tiny crystals in it (an Arkansas stone or some other natural stone).
So let it be said!
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston View Post
Okay, I'm not a metallurgist, but ... does anyone really think you can "press" steel together and make it harder? With your hand?

You can polish a steel surface, which I think you do by rubbing it with something abrasive but smooth, so as to grind down any irregularities or striations in the surface. The "something" could be a fine powder of tiny diamonds attached to a metal base (a diamond stone), or a fine powder of tiny synthetic sapphires embedded in ceramic (a ceramic stone), or a quarried stone that naturally has a fine powder of tiny crystals in it (an Arkansas stone or some other natural stone).
I think there's a language problem here, and they didn't mean press together, but really meant tempering or case hardening. ceramic is what is used in the factory to get the edge as hard as they do, and ceramic edge machines are available at some ski shops, although prohibitively expensive, that claim to restore that factory edge. They use a ceramic wheel spinning at high speed to temper(?) the edge, which is done as the last step in the tuning process. I don't think using a ceramic stone used manually can generate the heat or pressure to temper steel, but I'm no metalurgist either.
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 
Well as much as I understood they didn't mean hardening as changing the steel hardness but pushing together the rough outside. As even after polishing the egde under a miscroscope won't be flat - so moving in one single direction with a hard press could in effect press all the little debris on the outside together and align it. It's clear that you can't harden or press together the egde anywhere where its really flat - but really flat doesn't exist.

Tooltonic (a small swiss boutique for edge sharpening that sells quite a lot of great products like their unique Icecut sharpener) sells a hand tool with rotating ceramic stones (low speed as only rotated by moving along the base) for polishing.
post #13 of 17
Well, I just got off the phone with Artech. I was told by their tech to use a ceramic stone after using a diamond stone. Apparently, the diamond stone will "soften" the edge, and the ceramic will case harden the edge. Sounds a little screwy to me, as far as I know, steel can eaither be hardened from working (i.e. rolling/bending) or heating, not from polishing.
post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post
Well, I just got off the phone with Artech. I was told by their tech to use a ceramic stone after using a diamond stone. Apparently, the diamond stone will "soften" the edge, and the ceramic will case harden the edge. Sounds a little screwy to me, as far as I know, steel can eaither be hardened from working (i.e. rolling/bending) or heating, not from polishing.
diamonds then ceramic is correct. it is just that ceramic is less abrasive and further polishese the edge.
post #15 of 17
It seems like you can get pretty high up there with the diamond alone, what kind of finish does the ceramic put on the edge? Right now I am going up to 400grit with the Maplus diamonds.
post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post
Well, I just got off the phone with Artech. I was told by their tech to use a ceramic stone after using a diamond stone. Apparently, the diamond stone will "soften" the edge, and the ceramic will case harden the edge. Sounds a little screwy to me, as far as I know, steel can eaither be hardened from working (i.e. rolling/bending) or heating, not from polishing.
from wikipedia:

Case hardening or surface hardening is the process of hardening the surface of a metal, often a low carbon steel, by infusing elements into the material's surface, forming a thin layer of a harder alloy

no, ceramic isnt case hardening steel.
post #17 of 17
Pretty much what I was thinking, but it has been a few years since I have taken a materials science course. However, the more refined the surface of the material, the less prone it is to microfractures, and hence the material is "stronger". I'm not really sure if this would be applicible to ski edges, I'll have to give it some further thought...

P.S., I am a Mechanical Engineering Student, so this is kind of my thing right now...
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