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Tips on teaching, need your help. - Page 2

post #31 of 97
Thread Starter 
Wow lots of good stuff here! I think this weekend I may be wedging around some greens and trying to figure out exactly what I'm doing. Now that I read all the stuff here, I realize that I haven't paid attention to my wedge and stem christie skiing in 20 years and have no idea how I do it.
post #32 of 97
Have fun with the wedging. I find that doing really good wedge turns is as hard as doing good parallel turns, and since you're generally going slowly, it's hard to cheat. Sometimes it's almost meditative to try to make them perfectly.
post #33 of 97
Day 1 – Level 1
AM… Kids
Get to know them and where they are from.

Kneel at there level so they can look the “monster” in the eye. You are a monster in goofy goggles, poofy coat and towering above them.

Make sure they start with their skiis off

Start memorizing their first names

Check for comfort. “Is everything comfortable?” Check boots, helmet, googles, gloves.

Throw away the poles for the day… Yours and thiers.

Time… For follow the leader.

Walk in the boots only… Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope. The same moves you would do with skiis on. Test for heel and toe rotation, by doing same to the snow. Hokie Pokie. Do a bow tie or snow angel in the snow with your boots.

In my opinion children 8 and under, have a natural propensity to wedge their feet, and you do not have to teach the wedge, they will naturally do it.

Get them to look up. It is natural for everyone to look at the moon boots and eventually the long blocks of wood under their feet. My favorite is to walk like a monster… Ugghing like Frankenstien and/or a Mummy puts a smile on there face.

Put your hands in front of you and get them to put their hands in front of them… See above. In the beginning, they go where there hands go.
Teach the parts of the ski and how to put one on. Toe goes in the top of the smile. Then STOMP on it. Show the sides of the hill… It will take a thousand times to demo this.

Put on one ski, time to scoot with your “new” scooter under your feet. Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope. All with one ski on. Swap feet repeat as necessary unyou see them beginning to get it. Follow the leader around obstacles.

Time for two skiis. Same stuff... Time to slide and glide around the flats you are on. Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope.


They follow what you do... Have Fun and they will too...

Time for lunch.

Jim
post #34 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTolentino View Post
Day 1 – Level 1
AM… Kids
Get to know them and where they are from.

Kneel at there level so they can look the “monster” in the eye. You are a monster in goofy goggles, poofy coat and towering above them.

Make sure they start with their skiis off

Start memorizing their first names

Check for comfort. “Is everything comfortable?” Check boots, helmet, googles, gloves.

Throw away the poles for the day… Yours and thiers.

Time… For follow the leader.

Walk in the boots only… Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope. The same moves you would do with skiis on. Test for heel and toe rotation, by doing same to the snow. Hokie Pokie. Do a bow tie or snow angel in the snow with your boots.

In my opinion children 8 and under, have a natural propensity to wedge their feet, and you do not have to teach the wedge, they will naturally do it.

Get them to look up. It is natural for everyone to look at the moon boots and eventually the long blocks of wood under their feet. My favorite is to walk like a monster… Ugghing like Frankenstien and/or a Mummy puts a smile on there face.

Put your hands in front of you and get them to put their hands in front of them… See above. In the beginning, they go where there hands go.
Teach the parts of the ski and how to put one on. Toe goes in the top of the smile. Then STOMP on it. Show the sides of the hill… It will take a thousand times to demo this.

Put on one ski, time to scoot with your “new” scooter under your feet. Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope. All with one ski on. Swap feet repeat as necessary unyou see them beginning to get it. Follow the leader around obstacles.

Time for two skiis. Same stuff... Time to slide and glide around the flats you are on. Duck walk (up the slope), Pigeon Toes or the dreaded Pizza (down the slope), French fry or box of crayons (side stepping), up and down the slope.


They follow what you do... Have Fun and they will too...

Time for lunch.

Jim

This is really good stuff. I would just expand on one thing. When checking the boots for comfort, make sure they are not too comfortable. Only should have the sock in the boot all the other stuff i.e. long johns, inner pant, and ski pant should not be in the boot. Now the really important part, the boots should be snug especially in the cuff. Too many people are just floating in their boots and any movements they make in regards to pressuring the front and sides of boot are wasted in thin air. Don't trust the rental shop or the parents to have the boots properly tightened check it yourself, it will save loads of time on the hill when the movements you teach them are actually transmitted down to the skis via snug boots.
post #35 of 97
Oohh!!! That is a great point... I have found many a kid with loose boots or stuff tucked into them.

I would have to add though out here, it is more often they are torqued too tight for many children. It is very easy to over torque them, when you have those handles that are easily snappable for an adult.

Also, boots on kids can also be imbalanced and a child will complain about a foot. Check both when you are inspecting or adjusting them.


Jim
post #36 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
tdk6,
So, to move (turn) left, you should move to the right first?? Why don't the world cup skiers do that?? Why not teach a direct turn entry? Why not develope diagional movements into and out of turns??

Maybe I'm misinturpeting what you are saying.

RW
Yes (first Q). But you are not really moving left you are only shifting pressure to your outside ski. Your skis dont go left or anything like that and your body below waist line remains in the same place. WC skiers do the same except they move for example their hips into the turn insted of leaning towards the outside with their upper body. They relay on so called passive weight transfere while beginners need to resort to active weight transfer because of lack of speed in reference to gravitational pull. In eccess to that it teaches good stuff like angulation right from the start. Both the WC skier and the beginner both share an angulated stance that provides better edgehold and and better outside ski pressure than simply standing square over your skis. Not before you learn how to turn from starting perpendicular to the fall line and turning all across the fall line and back 180deg from where you started at slow speed in a wedge we can assume right technique has been used. We have been through this same discussion a million times but let me quote Stu Cambell from SKI magazine Jan 2005 one more time:

"For newcombers, skiing can seem counterintuitive. If you want to turn left, it might seem natural to lean to your left. This works at first-until you lose your edge and tip over to the inside. Worse, it leads to the hard-to-break habit of staning on your inside ski. To turn left properly, you need to apply pressure to the inside edge of your right outside ski, which is about to become your new downhill ski."

Stu has a podcast right here at epic, a sticky at the top. Go there and tell Stu how wrong he is. Its funny because Stu is refering to newcombers: "for newcomers, skiing can seem counterintuitive"! For skiers above newcombers level, like most here at epic not approving of this method, it should be axiomatic, more than obvious.

There are offcourse different ways of teaching and skiing but since you brought up the WC example this above method is the one we use to feed our national ski racing team with jr racers as well as teach regular students. In the vail demos the instructor is turning by applying upper body rotation and up-unweighting. That method is not used by us and considered wrong.
post #37 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Yes (first Q). But you are not really moving left you are only shifting pressure to your outside ski. Your skis dont go left or anything like that and your body below waist line remains in the same place. WC skiers do the same except they move for example their hips into the turn insted of leaning towards the outside with their upper body. They relay on so called passive weight transfere while beginners need to resort to active weight transfer because of lack of speed in reference to gravitational pull. In eccess to that it teaches good stuff like angulation right from the start. Both the WC skier and the beginner both share an angulated stance that provides better edgehold and and better outside ski pressure than simply standing square over your skis. Not before you learn how to turn from starting perpendicular to the fall line and turning all across the fall line and back 180deg from where you started at slow speed in a wedge we can assume right technique has been used. We have been through this same discussion a million times but let me quote Stu Cambell from SKI magazine Jan 2005 one more time:

"For newcombers, skiing can seem counterintuitive. If you want to turn left, it might seem natural to lean to your left. This works at first-until you lose your edge and tip over to the inside. Worse, it leads to the hard-to-break habit of staning on your inside ski. To turn left properly, you need to apply pressure to the inside edge of your right outside ski, which is about to become your new downhill ski."

Stu has a podcast right here at epic, a sticky at the top. Go there and tell Stu how wrong he is. Its funny because Stu is refering to newcombers: "for newcomers, skiing can seem counterintuitive"! For skiers above newcombers level, like most here at epic not approving of this method, it should be axiomatic, more than obvious.

There are offcourse different ways of teaching and skiing but since you brought up the WC example this above method is the one we use to feed our national ski racing team with jr racers as well as teach regular students. In the vail demos the instructor is turning by applying upper body rotation and up-unweighting. That method is not used by us and considered wrong.
Warning: The views express above are NOT consistant with the general views of PSIA. These comments are assuming that actively weighting a ski by tipping the torso over it, is the preferred method. We here in the US tend to emphaisize rotary movements to initiate wedge turns which creates a weight transfer without leaning the upper body arbitrarily over one ski then the other, looking like "bozo the punching clown" skiing down the slope. The weight gets transferred passively and the turning is aided by steering the outside ski while releasing the inside skis resistance to turning.

I am afraid TDK6 is misinterpreted Stu's comments to suite his perceptions.

b
post #38 of 97
Right on, Bud.

If experts move into the turn, so should beginners, otherwise we're teaching stuff that will need to be "untaught" later. Whether the turn begins with pure tipping/edging movements (as in Railroad Tracks and other "pure-carved" turns), or with guiding/steering movements (needed to make turns tighter than your skis can carve on their own), I find that letting the turn cause the weight transfer is far more effective than making an active weight transfer prior to the turn, at least as a basic "default" technique.

Moving to the new outside ski before turning requires what I call a "negative movement"--a movement in the wrong direction. That would certainly be counter-intuitive!

At low beginner speeds, the weight transfer may take a while, as the forces of the turn are minimal. At higher speeds, it may become almost instantaneous, as the greater centrifugal force that results from the higher speed turn pulls you toward the outside ski as soon as the turn starts. (Yes, it pulls toward the outside as soon as any turn starts, but centrifugal force must overcome the pull of gravity into turn in the first half of the turn, so the more speed, the more quickly it happens.)

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe that the movements of good turns are very much intuitive. Ask a beginning skier (or any other) to come toward you from a stop on flat terrain, and you'll see all the moves of great turns--the inside (closer) foot will move toward you first, followed by the other foot, as the skier moves his entire body toward you. And the weight will transfer to the other foot--without any active movement toward that foot. Everything will move toward you, in the direction of the turn. Nothing will move the other way.

And that's as it should be. These are the natural movements we must encourage as instructors, and they are highly intuitive. What is not intuitive is the offensive intent that causes them! These "positive movements" I've described result from the simple intent to GO in a new direction--which is the intent that motivates the great turns of expert skiers.

Unfortunately, the intuition of most beginning skiers (actually, most skiers at all levels) tells them to make turns to stop going the direction they're going, rather than to GO a new direction. This defensive intent ("stop going this way;" "slow down;" "control speed") fosters negative movements--movements in the wrong direction. Such movements include stems (pushing the tail of the outside ski away from the turn), parallel tail pushes, "pushoffs" (pushing your body uphill away from the turn), and . . . weight transfers to the new outside (uphill) ski.

So, while expert skiers at speed do tend to find a weight transfer almost coinciding with the turn initiation, it is a fundamental error entailing "wrong" movements to insist on such an "early" weight transfer for beginners. The move away from the turn is a dead-end move that will need to be "unlearned" at some point.

As I said, the movements of great turns are highly intuitive at every level, provided the skier is in the same offensive mindset as experts (ie. racers) making turns to GO that way rather than to STOP GOING this way as most skiers do. This is why one of the primary outcomes of a Level 1 lesson (see my post #27) is to learn to love gliding. Students must learn to love the sensation of sliding around on slippery feet, rather than fighting it and feeling in control only when they're preventing it (that is to say, braking).

The movements of braking are intuitive too, whenever we're defensive, and they are the opposite of the movements of great turns. So it is critically and fundamentally important that skiers learn to become offensive, loving gliding, trying to go faster, letting gravity and the mountain control their speed for them (skiing a "slow [enough] line fast"), rather than braking constantly.

In summary, a few important points:
  • Intent dictates technique.
  • The intent of great turns is offensive--they're made to go that way, rather than to stop going this way--to control line, not to control speed (directly).
  • Offensive intent intuitively produces the movements of great turns--"positive movements" in the direction of the turn.
  • Offensive intent is not intuitive--therefore it must be a prime focus of lessons for beginners (and for everyone else who skis defensively, yet wants to make better turns).
  • To go right, you should make no movements to the left. To teach someone to turn right, you should teach no movements to the left!
  • It is impossible to teach offensive movements to defensive skiers successfully. So teach 'em to love gliding, to want to go faster all the time, rather than feeling in control only when the brakes are on!
  • Follow these guidelines and, as I said, good techniques will (mostly) take care of themselves. [Offensive] intent dictates [great turning] technique. Intuitively!
So, back to that weight transfer thing--it is important to teach new skiers to allow pressure to move to the outside ski as the forces of the turn develop, rather than to lean the upper body into the turn. But it is a mistake, as a rule, to insist on an "early" weight transfer prior to initiating a turn. That's not to say that one-footed balance drills aren't good--they are, and they can be the key to getting the student comfortable balancing on that outside ski when the forces pull him there. But one-footed balance is generally the result--not the cause--of great turns.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #39 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
The weight gets transferred passively and the turning is aided by steering the outside ski while releasing the inside skis resistance to turning.

b
If you think that newcomers can do this your dreaming.

Why did the wedge become the starting point in skiing? Because it gave a stable platform nd was easy to turn. Weight one ski and you go int eh direction that ski is pointing. This was the way until Centerline. All of sudden it was all about rotary. This emphasis was a bad idea then. It;s a worse idea now. With shaped skis all you need to do is tip it and it will turn. Weight it and it will turn. Those are both very easy to execute movements and easy to feel sensations.
post #40 of 97
Quote:
If you think that newcomers can do this your dreaming.
Either that or observing, volklskier.

Actually, it works every time, like a charm. And eliminating the negative movement to the uphill/new outside ski not only eliminates a dead-end movement, it allows the "newcomer" to feel far more comfortable and confident than when you make him stand on one foot.

Furthermore, standing entirely on one foot eliminates the ability to guide the ski you're standing on with fine low-in-the-kinetic-chain movements of the foot and leg and requires that you twist it with gross movements of your upper body. Unless your balance is absolutely perfect on the razor-thin edge of the new ski and it will carve the precise line you want to travel. Not likely for a beginning skier!

Contrary to your assertion, asking a new skier to balance on one ski while smoothly and accurately tipping it into a turn (and consequently moving his body into the turn for balance as well) is a pretty big stretch for most beginners--especially after you've already caused them to move away from the turn with the move in the first place! Indeed, it's a rare advanced skier who can do that smoothly and accurately at very low (beginner) speeds.

Releasing the edge of the downhill ski and guiding both ski tips into a turn, as Bud describes, is very (VERY) different from twisting the tail of the new outside ski uphill and out into a skid, which is the almost inevitable outcome of asking skiers to balance on the uphill ski before starting a turn. Especially beginners. The idea of steering or guiding with the legs is meant to eliminate twisting the skis into a skid, not cause it. Only the legs are able to guide the tips into a turn. Upper body twisting movements can only twist the skis into a skid.

Yes, all you have to do on shaped skis is tip them (and weight them) and they will turn. But then, all you have to do on a train is sit there and let it follow the curving tracks. If all you want to do is go for a ride, tipping and pressing will fill the bill. If you want to learn to drive, to go precisely where you (not your skis) choose to go, there's a bit more to it!

Best regards,
Bob
post #41 of 97
Thanks Bob for expressing it so clearly! It seems some have the perception that releasing and guiding are indicative of tail swinging and skidding, which is untrue. This movement is the "GO" movement that starts the turn and once the predominant weight has shifted to the outside ski it becomes even easier to guide it with the appropriate amount of edge engagement so as not to skid. The icing on the cake is, using this movement, the wedge morphs quickly and simultaneously into a christy (parallel edges)! No it is not carved YET! but it does promote turn shaping and builds confidence and comfort to promote another "GO" turn entry!

PSIA develops the skill level of rotary sooner at the beginner levels while PMTS seems to promote a higher level of edging skill earlier in a skier. As we progress through to high level skiing all the skills need to be developed to a higher level, No?..

bud
post #42 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
If you think that newcomers can do this your dreaming.

Why did the wedge become the starting point in skiing? Because it gave a stable platform nd was easy to turn. Weight one ski and you go int eh direction that ski is pointing. This was the way until Centerline. All of sudden it was all about rotary. This emphasis was a bad idea then. It;s a worse idea now. With shaped skis all you need to do is tip it and it will turn. Weight it and it will turn. Those are both very easy to execute movements and easy to feel sensations.
BobB has done a great job at describing and refining the new trends in PSIA that stears students away from more traditional methods. I dont see any PSIA vs PMTS discussions here anymore but that doesent mean that there is nothing to debate, on the contrary, but since this forum is run by PSIA afiliated personell opinions supporting that kind of methology are more likely to get praiced. BobB is a person of very sivilized manners and he is able to explain in high detail all aspects of skiing. His great insite and his humble attitude also leaves room for diverging opinions and we can all learn from his posts, manuals and books.

However, I also "know" that skiing is not something PSIA or PMTS owns all legal right to. I also "know" that a big part of all skiing population on this planet and instructors and assosiations stand for diverging methods. One of the few exceptions is coaching since they all have the same aim and that narrows it all down pritty much to same skills and techiques. But when it comes to regular skiing nobody really can measure what kind of technique is better or more right.

Im 100% with volklskier1, I think the most efficeint way of turning is "weighting and turning". With new skis turning is a breez and students learn to ski quickly and progress up the skill ladder swiftly. I discussed this matter today with a new Austrian ski instructor I have at our school and he verified the importance of active weight transfer. Today its a fact that we dont have to teach kids to wedge for days and days. Usually a 5y old kid can ski down an intermediate run after only one hour of instruction.
post #43 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
And eliminating the negative movement to the uphill/new outside ski not only eliminates a dead-end movement, it allows the "newcomer" to feel far more comfortable and confident than when you make him stand on one foot. Furthermore, standing entirely on one foot eliminates the ability to guide the ski you're standing on with fine low-in-the-kinetic-chain movements of the foot and leg and requires that you twist it with gross movements of your upper body. Unless your balance is absolutely perfect on the razor-thin edge of the new ski and it will carve the precise line you want to travel. Not likely for a beginning skier!

Contrary to your assertion, asking a new skier to balance on one ski while smoothly and accurately tipping it into a turn (and consequently moving his body into the turn for balance as well) is a pretty big stretch for most beginners--especially after you've already caused them to move away from the turn with the move in the first place! Indeed, it's a rare advanced skier who can do that smoothly and accurately at very low (beginner) speeds.
Hey Bob! Long time. I still have fond memories of that day inadvertently skiing with you and Victor before the tryouts.

If I can jog my memory to the day Cal Cantrell and Dot Nebel taught me to ski on my wooden Northlands then perhaps an image as described by you or heishman would ring true. Weighting the ski sufficiently required a gross movement of the body over the ski. However, that just isn't true any more.

I'm not sure how to organize this response to you but I'll give it a try. First I think some of your response is a bit disingenuous. Nowhere in my description do I ask the newcomer to "stand on one foot". That just isn't necessary and therefore the problems you ascribe to doing so are moot. The one thing we do agree on is that it is a rare beginner skier that can do any movement "smoothly and accurately" and that includes "fine low-in-the-kinetic-chain movements of the foot and leg". Whoa! That's a mouthful!

When I think of a new skier, I can clearly visualize someone in a completely alien environment that is having trouble with skill number 1: balance. There is so much new information and feedback that they are receiving from their body and the environment that they are on overload. So in this environment, you are asking them to use a very subtle movement and skill ( rotary steering whatver it's called now) that it is apparent from a visit to any ski hill that most skiers of greater ability have not come close to using properly.

Let's also remember the context that new skiers make their first turns. They usually go from a straight run to a gliding wedge to making their first turn. That turn is made from a gliding wedge straight down the fall line. Very little pressure is required to get the ski to turn. You also get some natural tipping of the ski onto edge as well. The negative move as you call it is inconsequential, unnecessary and in fact natural forces quickly move the skier in the right direction. (anyone who has done jet wedges has had this sensation). It is much easier for a new skier to feel and execute this concept then it is to understand and execute steering. Take a ski pole, plant it by on the outside by the tip of the ski, lift your ski up and push against it. That's steering of the inside ski and it's not easy for someone moving and out of balance to do it and feel it. In fact most of the time you won't get them moving their feet and legs ybut will instead see them rotating their upper body trying to move their feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
The idea of steering or guiding with the legs is meant to eliminate twisting the skis into a skid, not cause it. Only the legs are able to guide the tips into a turn. Upper body twisting movements can only twist the skis into a skid.
I hear what your saying and on paper it might seem like a great idea. In practice it's not working. It doesn't work because the only way a new skier can experience it is with a gross movement. They can't make a fine movement as you describe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Yes, all you have to do on shaped skis is tip them (and weight them) and they will turn. But then, all you have to do on a train is sit there and let it follow the curving tracks. If all you want to do is go for a ride, tipping and pressing will fill the bill. If you want to learn to drive, to go precisely where you (not your skis) choose to go, there's a bit more to it!
If we are looking at teaching skills that are important in upper level skiing then let's also teach them in proportion to how they are used. I can drive my ski and shape my turn through edge and pressure control. Do I use steering some of the time. Sure but is minimal in the blend of skills. If we see a large population of skiers that continue to have no turn shape and lacking the skills to keep them from having their tails wash out then why are we continuing to emphazie steering when they are learning when it obviously hasn't been working?

Instead let's have them experience and feel early on how cool it is to go for a ride on the edge of the ski as it arcs. Let's have the learn that this is ok. This is the thrill of skiing, turning down the fall line and accelerating! That control comes from using the ski to shape an arc not from turning your feet and getting the ski moving sideways!
post #44 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Instead let's have them experience and feel early on how cool it is to go for a ride on the edge of the ski as it arcs. Let's have the learn that this is ok. This is the thrill of skiing, turning down the fall line and accelerating! That control comes from using the ski to shape an arc not from turning your feet and getting the ski moving sideways!
Now that is something a beginner wants to do ? And how big do you suppose that arc might be? and how fast do you think they may be going?....

I do not see what is so difficult about taking a skier doing a gliding wedge, (by the way a "gliding wedge" requires the skier to continually steer both tips in and both tails out), and asking them to flatten one ski. This simple movement, easily demonstrated, easy to do statically, will cause a nice turn without doing or talking about anything else initially. Further development of the wedge turns will bring in other elements but the basic movement is very easily communicated and performed.

bud
post #45 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
...asking them to flatten one ski. ...

bud

and, as many of us that teach on a nearly daily basis to this level skier know, it works.
post #46 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Now that is something a beginner wants to do ? And how big do you suppose that arc might be? and how fast do you think they may be going?....
How big the arc is on their initial turns is unimportant. Their speed should be negligible on the proper teaching terrain. Let's be clear that I am not saying they will be able arc a turn. That would take a higher skill level. What I am saying is that balance, edgeing and pressure are the skills that are most important to learn and are what dominate upper level skiing so why we teach new skiers that rotary is the primary method of turning is a mystery to me.
post #47 of 97

Still confused....

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanseeformiles(andmiles) View Post

and, as many of us that teach on a nearly daily basis to this level skier know, it works.
This is very stange because I cannot pull off a desent wedge turn by only flattening the old outside ski.

From a gliding wedge down in the fall line on a easy piched slope it causes me to instantly start mooving sideways but not in an arch manner, more just sideways like this //. In the worst case my new outside ski starts running along its edge like it was carving and my inside ski just skidds over the snow without any stearing properties, like a wedge lock. In comparisson to active weight shift the turn shape is broad and uncontrolled.

From a gliding wedge across the hill on a easy piched slope simply flattening the inside ski just sends my flattened ski sideways down the hill as my new outside ski remains on its inside edge and skis drift apart.

In the vail demos the instructor applied up-unweighting (not really just extending at transition in order to be able to apply pressure on new outside ski by flexing down) and leg and upper body rotation in order to crank his skis arround. This is far from just flattening the new inside ski.
post #48 of 97
tdk6
I'll spend a little time thinking about your reply. All I can say right now is that I teach it on a daily basis, and it works!!!
post #49 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
How big the arc is on their initial turns is unimportant. Their speed should be negligible on the proper teaching terrain. Let's be clear that I am not saying they will be able arc a turn. That would take a higher skill level. What I am saying is that balance, edgeing and pressure are the skills that are most important to learn and are what dominate upper level skiing so why we teach new skiers that rotary is the primary method of turning is a mystery to me.
That is a mystery to me also!

Also to my experiance and IMHO active weight transfer makes your turns much sharper and more arched than passive weight transfer. Since both skis are on their edges they controll speed better all through the turn, even in the fall line there is no quick acceleration kicking in scaring the beginner.
post #50 of 97
My observation is that in most cases skiers have problems with fore-aft balance at some point in their turns if they have any issues at all, but that fore-aft balance is a very easy concept to see and understand. Most skiers who are having problems up through level 5 or so seem also to have rotary skill limitations, and many have trouble seeing and understanding the rotary movement. The best thing we can do for a skier is to introduce rotary skills early and often in beginner lessons. For me this means with boots only, with one ski (typically doing figure eights) and with two skis (steer, don't push, into and out of a wedge, and make the first turns by steering the skis). Of course all of this assumes a skier with sufficient development to accomplish the rotary movements. Some younger skiers, typically below age 6, cannot control their muscles well enough to steer skis. For these youngsters, and only for the ones who cannot show a leg rotation with skis on after several runs, I teach a weight shift turn. They may have to unlearn the weight shift turn later, but at least they will be able to navigate green slopes to their satisfaction.
post #51 of 97
TDK6,

Try a gliding wedge rather than a braking wedge. It sounds like your wedge is too wide. Give it an honest effort and I think you will see if you use a gliding wedge which is narrow (feet approximately shoulder width) you will discover the merits and ease of this method. Be careful not to twist your hips. Let us know what you find?!

b
post #52 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
TDK6,

Try a gliding wedge rather than a braking wedge. It sounds like your wedge is too wide. Give it an honest effort and I think you will see if you use a gliding wedge which is narrow (feet approximately shoulder width) you will discover the merits and ease of this method. Be careful not to twist your hips. Let us know what you find?!

b
I will try to narrow the wedge a bit.... we have -25 below freezing now so no skiing with students for some days.
post #53 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post
My observation is that in most cases skiers have problems with fore-aft balance at some point in their turns if they have any issues at all, but that fore-aft balance is a very easy concept to see and understand. Most skiers who are having problems up through level 5 or so seem also to have rotary skill limitations, and many have trouble seeing and understanding the rotary movement. The best thing we can do for a skier is to introduce rotary skills early and often in beginner lessons. For me this means with boots only, with one ski (typically doing figure eights) and with two skis (steer, don't push, into and out of a wedge, and make the first turns by steering the skis). Of course all of this assumes a skier with sufficient development to accomplish the rotary movements. Some younger skiers, typically below age 6, cannot control their muscles well enough to steer skis. For these youngsters, and only for the ones who cannot show a leg rotation with skis on after several runs, I teach a weight shift turn. They may have to unlearn the weight shift turn later, but at least they will be able to navigate green slopes to their satisfaction.
How do you stear into a wedge? Do you start with your feet wide apart and rotate your femours in the hip pocket to make the tips stear towarde each other? Once you are in a wedge dont you have to teach your students to stay in the wedge by pushing their feet out?

Is the rotary movement you are talking about rotating your femours in the hip pocket?
post #54 of 97
Keep it simple: "Right tip right to GO right!"

If you do this, simply, without complicating it with other patterned and ingrained movements (especially upper body movements), it can't not work!

Remember, though, that the key word is GO. This is not a move for "turns" made to control speed. For many recreational skiers (honestly, probably 99%), turns are a defensive thing, and their movements are intended to get the skis skidding and scrubbing off speed, rather than controlling their line. For these skiers, the movements of good turns inevitably feel "wrong." Only when skiers think of the turn as a way to "go that way" will these movements feel intuitive, and only then will the skier feel successful when making them. If a skier is in a braking wedge to start with, he's already on the wrong track, not just because the harshly scraping edges are hard to turn, but because he's not in the requisite offensive state of mind!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #55 of 97
Ideally, from a shoulder width parallel stance the tips are turned in and the tails out. This places the pivot point under the feet. I talk about turning the feet but in reality the femurs do rotate in.

bud
post #56 of 97
Active weight transfer, imho, is not a good thing to teach... ever. If you have a child under the age of 6 that cannot hold a wedge, use an Edgie Wedgie to promote muscle memory. By using an edgie wedgie, you force their legs into a wedge when they spread them, which gets their legs used to that placement and motion. If a child can not do a wedge withjout skis on, after a half hour of edgie-wedgie, they can usually at least do it with skis off... sometimes with them on.

The problem I see with Edgie-Wedgies is that a lot of instructors just say 'push your legs out'. Which gives them the impression that they can stop by spreading their legs... with that thought process, once you take the EW off, they do the splits to stop. You still need to promote doing the 'pizza'... keeping tips closer.. This keeps it in their head that the wedge is what makes them stop... In my opinion, though, Edgie Wedgies should NOT be used if they can make a pizza in their boots or skis.. that's just taking a step backward.

Active Weight Transfer is just another bad habit that'd eventually have to be broken...

I'm also a big fan of 'magic turns'... works great for kids... the skis look like an arrow... point the arrow toward where you want to go. Keep the arrow pointed at me. Start with long turns, and gradually sharpen the turns.. once they can do sharper turns, get them to wedge a turn and parallel skis when not turning, promote later wedging and sooner paralleling....
post #57 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Keep it simple: "Right tip right to GO right!"
I've never understood what is supposed to happen as a result of this instruction. Is the right tip rotated or steered to the right? Is the right ski tipped to the right? I do not know what movement should be made to satisfy the instructor that the student has "got it". ie. what is the visual cue/confirmation?

Thanks
post #58 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
Keep it simple: "Right tip right to GO right!"
I have to admit that I have issues with this as well. The reason is that people will lean into the turn, as if riding a bike, get all of their weight on the inside ski, and the inside ski will turn, but the outside ski will not, and the skis run apart. I've seen it on hundreds of occasions.

The way I prefer it, and to counter the theory of rotating the skis into a wedging (opposing edge) relationship, is to have the skier ski in a moderately wide stance (at least hip width), and take the turning ski (outside ski) and put it up on edge and turn it toward the intended direction. This does a couple of things: The inside ski will naturally form a wedge, just because it turns into the new direction more slowly, but NOT by rotating it inward, and it promotes using and keeping pressure on the turning ski, as opposed to focusing on the inside ski. This means they will make a clean, powerful, controlled turn, without forcing a wedge and pushing tails apart. I have found nothing but problems with students that focus on moving into the turn with the inside ski.
post #59 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
How do you stear into a wedge? Do you start with your feet wide apart and rotate your femours in the hip pocket to make the tips stear towarde each other? Once you are in a wedge dont you have to teach your students to stay in the wedge by pushing their feet out?

Is the rotary movement you are talking about rotating your femours in the hip pocket?
You start with your feet a functional distance apart and the skis parallel, then steer both skis into a narrow wedge by rotating the femurs in the hip sockets. The beautiful thing about this is if the feet stay the same distance apart, which I point out to the students, the only way to get a wedge is by steering. This reinforces, and makes clearly visible, the idea of steering, which is less obvious when both skis steer in the same direction in a shallow deviation. Pushing out is an undesired means of going from parallel to wedge unless you are attempting to do a braking wedge, in which case there still should be some steering, but in order to get a large wedge the feet have to move to a wider stance.
post #60 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by hydrogen_wv View Post
Active weight transfer, imho, is not a good thing to teach... ever. If you have a child under the age of 6 that cannot hold a wedge, use an Edgie Wedgie to promote muscle memory. By using an edgie wedgie, you force their legs into a wedge when they spread them, which gets their legs used to that placement and motion. If a child can not do a wedge withjout skis on, after a half hour of edgie-wedgie, they can usually at least do it with skis off... sometimes with them on.

The problem I see with Edgie-Wedgies is that a lot of instructors just say 'push your legs out'. Which gives them the impression that they can stop by spreading their legs... with that thought process, once you take the EW off, they do the splits to stop. You still need to promote doing the 'pizza'... keeping tips closer.. This keeps it in their head that the wedge is what makes them stop... In my opinion, though, Edgie Wedgies should NOT be used if they can make a pizza in their boots or skis.. that's just taking a step backward.

Active Weight Transfer is just another bad habit that'd eventually have to be broken...

I'm also a big fan of 'magic turns'... works great for kids... the skis look like an arrow... point the arrow toward where you want to go. Keep the arrow pointed at me. Start with long turns, and gradually sharpen the turns.. once they can do sharper turns, get them to wedge a turn and parallel skis when not turning, promote later wedging and sooner paralleling....
Some younger students can hold a wedge but cannot steer both skis in the same direction from that wedge. Edgie wedgies are for those students who cannot hold a wedge at all. These students typically have less coordination, and are less likely to be able to steer both skis, so there is often overlap in these issues, but I have taught a few students who steered both skis, but needed an edgie wedgie, or similar device, to maintain a wedge initially. I agree that edgie wedgies and similar devices don't usually need to be appplied for the entire lesson, and that students often figure out what they have to do to maintain a wedge.
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