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I want to ski the slow line fast, but... - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post
the second idea that I had is the title of this thread ...

in my understanding the slow line would be the one in which you use the terrain (line) and turn shape to control your speed. in truly steep environments ... I tend to think more of skiing the fast line slow.
Actually as far as I have understood it in SLF you are using terrain (line) and turnshape to controll your speed. You pick a line that keeps your speed up but under controll and let your skis run forwards in wide archs staying away from the fall line, carving for instance on easy to moderate pich slopes. In FLS you stick more to the fall line and turn by skidding and pivoting. Steep slopes, moguls, powder etc.
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
Touche, Ghost.

...One of the reasons that WC skiers slide into turns is because a pure arc in those situations takes more skill and probably even edge grip than they are able to muster. If they could arc every turn cleanly (as a WC racer could on just about any race course below noram-level), they certainly would (and do!). They can't ski "controlled arc to arc everywhere"... The obvious technicality re: arc to arc is that any moderately straight trail can be skied, well, straight, staying ever so slightly on edge - just enough to be technically carving. Before trying that strategy, though, please wait for me to be off of the trail. Someone almost hit me using that strategy this weekend, and nobody has ever accused me of skiing too slowly.
Actually, the WC skiiers could carve in that situation. The problem is that you're required a 21+m radius. The turns are set tighter than the ski can carve, even flexed to its fullest. That way the racers are forced to control their speed. DH is what happens when you don't set like this.
post #33 of 53
That's an interesting take on the situation with probably a grain of truth in it. However, it's not like WC skiers are skiing the tightest radius ski they can find. I don't know of a single company whose race stock GS ski in a 185 actually has a 21m radius - now, I can't speak for all companies, but most 185 race stock GS skis have radii at 24m or above. Those skis are short and turny compared to what the big boys and girls are on, too. I would imagine that their skis have radii of 27+m... I believe there was a topic on this some time ago, but I don't have the energy to go diggin' through old posts

There was also a skiracing.com article last year (2 years ago?) that was interviewing Bode about sliding into turns. In a nutshell, he said that he always slid into one side on steep pitches and arced the other side cleanly, because he would build up too much speed if he arced both sides.

Finally, a ski flexed 'to its fullest' doesn't really make sense. Picture a ski with its base making an angle of 90 degrees with the snow. That ski can be flexed an arbitrary amount. With enough angulation, strength, and speed, slalom turns could be carved on DH boards... of course, in a real race course, racers' speeds (even top ones) are limited by their reaction times and, essentially, how long transitions take. In the same way, a recreational skier could, I suppose, carve every turn on any slope; that would not be a safe, efficient, or sane way to ski, however...
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Actually as far as I have understood it in SLF you are using terrain (line) and turnshape to controll your speed. You pick a line that keeps your speed up but under controll and let your skis run forwards in wide archs staying away from the fall line, carving for instance on easy to moderate pich slopes. In FLS you stick more to the fall line and turn by skidding and pivoting. Steep slopes, moguls, powder etc.
tdk ... I read your post (in which you quoted me) a few times and it seems like we're saying the exact same thing. or, I missed something ...

I talked about FLS because the original post talks about 'steep' slopes ... maybe it's semantics ... to me, very few people can ski a SLF in really steep situations
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post
tdk ... I read your post (in which you quoted me) a few times and it seems like we're saying the exact same thing. or, I missed something ...

I talked about FLS because the original post talks about 'steep' slopes ... maybe it's semantics ... to me, very few people can ski a SLF in really steep situations
No you did not miss anything. Yes, sure, on steep slopes we have to ski a so called fast line slow. And theres nothing wrong with it although the SLF consept fingerpoints it like defensive skiing. Think moguls and powder.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post
(technique *always* comes first ... but some tools are better suited to certain tasks)
At the risk of derailing this, I disagree. Ron LeMaster suggests this order:
  1. Equipment
  2. Morphology
  3. Tactics
  4. Technique
Pretty interesting, wot?
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No you did not miss anything. Yes, sure, on steep slopes we have to ski a so called fast line slow. And theres nothing wrong with it although the SLF consept fingerpoints it like defensive skiing. Think moguls and powder.
I still think that Bob's approach is more effective, but we need to include the full version:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
I should remind everyone that no one has yet quoted my actual full statement that is often shortened to simply "ski the slow line fast."

"Good skiing means skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can, when you can."

THIS is the full statement, and the word "enough," the qualifier "as you can," and the final clause "when you can" are ESSENTIAL to its meaning!
Follow the link to the original post to get the complete idea.
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
At the risk of derailing this, I disagree. Ron LeMaster suggests this order:
  1. Equipment
  2. Morphology
  3. Tactics
  4. Technique
Pretty interesting, wot?
Allow me to gracefully disagree with Ron LeMaster.

regarding tactics and technique ... one must have knowlegde and skills (technique) in order to execute a sensible tactic

regarding equipment and one's physicality ... I can buy excellent equipment to compensate for lack of morphology and technique. but if I have excellent morphology, tactics or technique, than I can compensate for any equipment challenges (except the obvious problems like "broken equipment").

to me it still boils down to ...
1) technique
2) tactics (the knowledge of what to do when and how to execute)

this makes a good skier good, if not great.

morphology and equipment are bonuses, but not totally required for solid recreational skiing.
post #39 of 53
And I would argue that if the equipment is poorly selected, inadequate for the tasks, and/or not set up for neutral balance in neutral that at least some of the skiers movements and effort will be compensatory. As a result, much energy is wasted, and precise skiing may not be possible.

Similarly, if the skier chooses poor tactics (for instance, choosing an inappropriate line given her objectives), solid technique won't make up for it.

It seems that you are concerned with "what's required." I'm far more interested in what will help a skier towards optimal skiing for that person, and it starts with the equipment and the skier's physical abilities.
post #40 of 53
Your equipment, your physical ability and strenghths or weaknesses, your tactics and then your technique.

It seems to add up properly to me. Poor equipment :Neither technique , tactics or strenghths can overcome.
A weak body or inability to handle the strain of skiing no technique or tactics can overcome this obstacle.

Poor tactics will overcome any good technique all of the time.

Well stated by Ron I agree compeltely.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
It seems that you are concerned with "what's required." I'm far more interested in what will help a skier towards optimal skiing for that person, and it starts with the equipment and the skier's physical abilities.
we're really derailing this thread, sorry to the threadstarter (etc.)

SSH, in the most early stages of skiing (never ever to L6 for example), we can help people make dramatic leaps with better boots and skis. also, fitness does also play a role in one's ability to learn to ski, it's certain.

Consider a different perspective ...

What if I took Bob Barnes, Ric Reiter, Tom Burch, Stu Campbell, Weems Westerfield (etc.), aged them to 70 years old and gave them very out-dated (or ill-suited for the task) equipment. Would they ski well?

Yes, they would ski well ... because they have excellent technique and tactics. A decade or more ago great skiers stood out from the crowd because they were the ones who could manage despite the equipment challenges.

Conversely, do I see people who due to the benefit of fitness and excellent equipment (bootfitting, etc.) who appear to ski better than they actually do? Yes, of course.

There are lots of different ways to look at skiing. When I think of it holistically, I think technique is the cake and stuff like equipment and fitness are the icing. Icing makes the cake taste that much sweeter, but a poorly made cake is still a poorly made cake.
post #42 of 53
If you took those guys and compared their skiing on well-fitting appropriate equipment to poorly fit and/or inappropriate equipment, on which equipment would they ski better, longer? Easy: the stuff that fits.

They know how to adjust their technique and tactics to equipment that doesn't do what they want it to do. Does that make the skiing better? No way!

When I think of modern skiing, the benefit of excellent equipment fit and balanced appropriately makes high-level skiing available to far more people than ever before. Anything less requires compensation in physical fitness, tactics, or technique. Why waste that effort when you could get the right gear fit properly and have 100% of your efforts go to exceptional skiing?

Why do I say this? At least partially because of what appropriate gear fit appropriately has done for me.
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
And YOUR suggestions for Jellybean are what?
I am still awaiting Volklskier1's advice too????........

She/he had some great advice for a beginner in another thread!:

Is that you Harry?
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Why do I say this? At least partially because of what appropriate gear fit appropriately has done for me.
essentially what we're discussing is equipment v. operator

since we're sooo off-topic, I will bring this to a new thread.
post #45 of 53
Can someone explain to me what Bode and coach mean, exactly, in that video on steeps about bleeding speed at the top of the turn? Unlike many of you here, I didn't get much out of the video -- I really couldn't see what he was doing to bleed speed, and they never really say exactly how they do it. A skid at the top of the turn? An early edge change? It seems to me that they mean a skid, because they say at the beginning of the steeps video that if you try to link clean carved turns on steep terrain you'll go too fast.

Part of my confusion comes from the fact that instructors have told me that the most efficient way to control your speed is by rounding turns at the end of the turn, and how inefficient it is to try to jam your skis around at the top of the turn to slow down. It also serves to knock you off balance, I hear. So why is it different on steeps, or perhaps it's a different technique at a higher level of skiing?

Also, why *can't* you control your speed with round completed turns on steep terrain? This is the only way I've ever done it, not that I've skied much that anyone would call really steep.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.
post #46 of 53
As I understood that video: A skid bleeds speed. If you must bleed speed, it is better to have that skid at the top of the turn than at the bottom of the turn. Your turn shape should still be round and not z.

Don't use a tail-pushing skid.
post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Queen View Post
Can someone explain to me what Bode and coach mean, exactly, in that video on steeps about bleeding speed at the top of the turn? Unlike many of you here, I didn't get much out of the video -- I really couldn't see what he was doing to bleed speed, and they never really say exactly how they do it. A skid at the top of the turn? An early edge change? It seems to me that they mean a skid, because they say at the beginning of the steeps video that if you try to link clean carved turns on steep terrain you'll go too fast.

Part of my confusion comes from the fact that instructors have told me that the most efficient way to control your speed is by rounding turns at the end of the turn, and how inefficient it is to try to jam your skis around at the top of the turn to slow down. It also serves to knock you off balance, I hear. So why is it different on steeps, or perhaps it's a different technique at a higher level of skiing?

Also, why *can't* you control your speed with round completed turns on steep terrain? This is the only way I've ever done it, not that I've skied much that anyone would call really steep.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.
In contrast to many ski instructors and self claimed experts in after ski bars and on the web Bode has currage enough to admit that linking carved turns on steep terrain creates too much speed.

You are talking about rounded turns. Sure you can make rounded turns on steep terrain but just like Ghost pointed out, skidded should be evenly skidded and not with a wash out at the end ala windshield wiper turns. In ski racing bleeding speed is useful just before comming to a gate. They call it a pre turn pivot. It is actually nothing more than a skidd and serve two purposes; brake and ski turn radius greater than gate turn radius. They change edges quickly at the transition and then they approach the gate in a skidd. As soon as they think they have brushed off enough speed and they feel they can hook into a carve and make it all the way arround into the next gate they let the skis run along their edges and pick up speed again.
post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Queen View Post
Can someone explain to me what Bode and coach mean, exactly, in that video on steeps about bleeding speed at the top of the turn? Unlike many of you here, I didn't get much out of the video -- I really couldn't see what he was doing to bleed speed, and they never really say exactly how they do it. A skid at the top of the turn? An early edge change? It seems to me that they mean a skid, because they say at the beginning of the steeps video that if you try to link clean carved turns on steep terrain you'll go too fast.

Part of my confusion comes from the fact that instructors have told me that the most efficient way to control your speed is by rounding turns at the end of the turn, and how inefficient it is to try to jam your skis around at the top of the turn to slow down.
I will try. I love carving steep terrain even if it is not groomed. Fast? you betcha and often carried a bit uphill at the end of the turn.

The problem is that when going far across the fall line or turning back uphill you bleed speed fast and on steeps you cannot just throw your body downhill and carve easily from the very top of the turn. Gravity is a much larger component than centripital force at that point in steep terrain. Instead what I will do is move forward as much as possible and run more of a flat ski with a little tip/steering/drift to get to a place in the turn where I can progressively roll onto an edge without moving inside to far.

In addition, I often end up nearing the edge of the run at the end of the turn. If I run out of terrain I will run the flat ski until I can stay on the trail with an arc out of the top of the turn.

I do not see this flat ski work at the top of a turn as speed control as much as I see it as Center of Mass control. Its true that the reason I ended up so far across the fall line and even uphill was to control speed but I don't see the work at the top of the turn as part of that speed control. The physics are not there on steep terrain to to achieve a carve over the top.

An easy exercise for this is to carve a turn as far uphill as you can. As you slow down get way forward so that the tips will start turning back down hill. Run a smooth line over the top and roll back into a carve the other way when the dynamics will allow it and repeat in the other direction. You should be able to go over the top in a smooth shallow arc without skid on nearly flat skis at about 1 mph.

Note: you will be on the uphill edges over the top in this exercise and not perfectly flat. Both tips will be steered towards downhill just like releasing the inside ski in a wedge turn. I suppose this could be considered a skid but I don't see it that way.

When this is taken to actual carving on steep terrain, the top of the turn may be slightly skidded.

Again I do not see this as a speed control issue as the turn shape is still round.
post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No you did not miss anything. Yes, sure, on steep slopes we have to ski a so called fast line slow. And theres nothing wrong with it although the SLF consept fingerpoints it like defensive skiing. Think moguls and powder.
I may be wrong, but I ski the slow line fast on the steeps. I use the terrain and bumps to facilitate speed control.
post #50 of 53
Thanks for the responses, guys. I'll be thinking about this some more....I just went and looked at the video again, and I'll say again that the video of Bode skiing is basically useless to me. It doesn't help that two of the four turns in the video are out of the frame entirely! Yikes.
post #51 of 53
Can someone be more specific about how to bleed speed on top of the turn, it is not very clear on Bode’s video, also Ghost said “Don't use a tail-pushing skid” , what else can you do it ?

Thx
post #52 of 53
Control speed through turn shape. Very round turns at any speed offer speed control opportunuities. I heard someone quote Bob Barnes as saying head uphill as fast as you can.
Turn shape in a very round turn keeps speed from developing out of your control. If your time in the fall line is not in a turn then you will gain speed pretty quickly. You can also get on your edges early and even somewhat uphilll if you have enough velocity to begin your turn early. It's fun to play with gravity in this way and since you are making a very round turn all is in control as far as path and speed control
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBC View Post
Can someone be more specific about how to bleed speed on top of the turn, it is not very clear on Bode’s video, also Ghost said “Don't use a tail-pushing skid” , what else can you do it ?

Thx
There's lots of things you can do.
One thing is to use a tip-pushing skid at the beginning of the turn instead of a tail-pushing skid at the end of the turn. Think of your skis as a car with front wheels and rear wheels being emulated by the tips and tails. Having the rear end slide out and overtake the front wheels is known as oversteering. Having the front wheels skid instead of turning the car is known as understeering. You can understeer the top of the turn instead of oversteering the bottom. It seems to me the tail-pushing is a lot like doing a power-slide with a rear wheel drive car. You can also do a four wheel drift.

I think the key is to get as much out of your skis as you can. Overloading the end of the turn doesn't allow you to get the maximum uphill force from the edge that carving the bottom of the turn at the limit of it's grip in a tight turn does.
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