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How does turning radius affect performance? - Page 2

post #31 of 47
If the tail doesn't spread out much it is easier to slip them out to "get off the rails", though I can't see wanting to do that. Different strokes...

EDIT: it also depends on torsional rigidity and flex. If you want to not-carve turns then you want a step or two down from top end skis. Realskiers rates skis on their ability to "softedge". Spend the 20 bucks and see what you can dig up.
post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
If the tail doesn't spread out much it is easier to slip them out to "get off the rails", though I can't see wanting to do that. Different strokes...

EDIT: it also depends on torsional rigidity and flex. If you want to not-carve turns then you want a step or two down from top end skis. Realskiers rates skis on their ability to "softedge". Spend the 20 bucks and see what you can dig up.
For me it's sort of an issue of safety, the ability to occasionally easily switch from carved to non-carved. In Europe where I ski the runs can sometimes be quite narrow and crowded and you really have to pick a particular point on the run to ski so as to safely avoid everyone else!
post #33 of 47
Back to the original question...it all depends on the internals of the ski, and the correct tune, and it depends on your skiing style. I skied with very powerful, very fast skiers in all mountain conditions where their favorite skis were 165 & 170 cm skis with 13 meter turning radius and 65 mm waist width. These weren't just any skis; these were the brand and model they felt were superior.

Back to Pete and his posting #26 in this thread...I think that if you got a pair of Head i.XRC 800 skis (or maybe Fischer RX6), you'd be surprised at how much better you ski immediately, and these are good for the intermediate to advanced skier. If you need more ski in a few years, the Head i.Supershape or Fischer RX8 would do very, very well, and I sure like my Heads--we've got both models I've listed. Go short, maybe chin to nose height if you're of medium proportions.

I've found Peter Keelty's techsupportforskiers.com $20 subscription site to have the best ski reviews around, and he answers individual questions from subscribers.


Ken
post #34 of 47
Back to the original question...it all depends on the internals of the ski, and the correct tune, and it depends on your skiing style. I skied with very powerful, very fast skiers in all mountain conditions where their favorite skis were 165 & 170 cm skis with 13 meter turning radius and 65 mm waist width. These weren't just any skis; these were the brand and model they felt were superior.

Back to Pete and his posting #26 in this thread...I think that if you got a pair of Head i.XRC 800 skis (or maybe Fischer RX6), you'd be surprised at how much better you ski immediately, and these are good for the intermediate to advanced skier. If you need more ski in a few years, the Head i.Supershape or Fischer RX8 would do very, very well, and I sure like my Heads--we've got both models I've listed. Go short, maybe chin to nose height if you're of medium proportions.

I've found Peter Keelty's techsupportforskiers.com $20 subscription site to have the best ski reviews around, and he answers individual questions from subscribers.


Ken
post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
If the tail doesn't spread out much it is easier to slip them out to "get off the rails", though I can't see wanting to do that. Different strokes...
I think you are misinterpreting what a wider tail does. particualrly in view of the fact that all your speed skis have very high taper angle (narrow tai)Why is that? tose ski are not meant to come back across the hill at the end of a turn.

It is not a matter of slipping it is that with a wider tail you must relase the tail earlyier or you have no choice but to come back across the hill. A wider tail locks the ski into one turn shape.

A narrower tail allows more versatility in turn shape.

Here is an article discussing it


http://www.ski-review.com/content/view/136/30/
post #36 of 47
Thanks for the article. I should have said the narrower tail is easier to release.
post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Thanks for the article. I should have said the narrower tail is easier to release.
No worries, Sorry about the pitiful typing above!
post #38 of 47
Back to the original question...it all depends on the internals of the ski, and the correct tune, and it depends on your skiing style. I skied with very powerful, very fast skiers in all mountain conditions where their favorite skis were 165 & 170 cm skis with 13 meter turning radius and 65 mm waist width. These weren't just any skis; these were the brand and model they felt were superior (Head i.Supershape & Head i.XRC 1100).

Back to Pete and his posting #26 in this thread...I think that if you got a pair of Head i.XRC 800 skis (or maybe Fischer RX6), you'd be surprised at how much better you ski immediately, and these are good for the intermediate to advanced skier. If you need more ski in a few years, the Head i.Supershape or Fischer RX8 would do very, very well, and I sure like my Heads--we've got both models I've listed. Go short, maybe chin to nose height if you're of medium proportions.

I've found Peter Keelty's techsupportforskiers.com $20 subscription site to have the best ski reviews around, and he answers individual questions from subscribers.


Ken
post #39 of 47
[quote=Atomicman;646587]there are 2 additional very important aspects that have not been mentioned!


#2) Actual shape of the sidecut. It is just mot the side cut radius itself that disctates turn shize abd shape. but taper angle! Taper angle is the width of the tail dimension compared to the waist of the ski. High taper angle allows a much more versatile turn shape, where low taper angle (wider tail) creat more across the hill finish to the turn and tends to lock a ski into a more specific turn shape, (read less versatile turn shape)


Atomicman,
I guess I just got confused. Say I have a ski with a waist of 66mm and a tail of 98mm... then I compare this to a ski with a wast of 66mm and a tail of 104mm, which has the greater taper angle? From your point #2 above, you state that a low taper angle= wider tail... Yet a high taper angle allows much more versatile turn shape.... So given my two dimensions listed above, which is the higher taper angle and the more versatile ski?
post #40 of 47
skinny tail = easier to release
I think your confusion comes from the "taper" above being referred to as tail-to-waist as opposed to tip-to-tail. The same radius with more taper has a higher tip width to tail width ratio.
post #41 of 47
It's valid to make some physical generalities, but everyone will think of a ski that contradicts them. My new iSupershapes are far happier at speed than my Rossi VS's of roughly the same radius, and my old RX 8's were substantially less stable in long radius turns than my old Volkl 6*, both at about 14 m.
post #42 of 47
Stability at speed isn't just a function of radius. It also requires a resistance to vibration in the vertical plane, among other things. My shapely 165 cm long 13-m radius SCs are more "stable" at speed than my decades old straight 180 cm GS skis.
post #43 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
There are techniques that will let you carve a tighter turn with the longer radius stiffer ski. ... I think you won't be able to make a very long sustained short radius turn however. For more extreme turns you can use only the outside ski to help you bend it. You can also scarve tighter turns, or else you can just skid the tails around.
SO what meter radius SL ski did Ingemar ski on? 41 meter radius (8mm) Uniline sidecut - the same for both SL and GS.

I'd say he carved the sh!t out of those.
post #44 of 47
[quote=spielerman;647861]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
there are 2 additional very important aspects that have not been mentioned!


#2) Actual shape of the sidecut. It is just mot the side cut radius itself that disctates turn shize abd shape. but taper angle! Taper angle is the width of the tail dimension compared to the waist of the ski. High taper angle allows a much more versatile turn shape, where low taper angle (wider tail) creat more across the hill finish to the turn and tends to lock a ski into a more specific turn shape, (read less versatile turn shape)


Atomicman,
I guess I just got confused. Say I have a ski with a waist of 66mm and a tail of 98mm... then I compare this to a ski with a wast of 66mm and a tail of 104mm, which has the greater taper angle? From your point #2 above, you state that a low taper angle= wider tail... Yet a high taper angle allows much more versatile turn shape.... So given my two dimensions listed above, which is the higher taper angle and the more versatile ski?
Higher taper angle is the one with the narrower tail 66 to 98

66 to 104 has less taper
post #45 of 47
[quote=Atomicman;648076]
Quote:
Originally Posted by spielerman View Post
Higher taper angle is the one with the narrower tail 66 to 98

66 to 104 has less taper
And just to clarify really the tip comes into play also.


wider tip narrower tail has more taper angle.
post #46 of 47
[quote=Atomicman;648080]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
And just to clarify really the tip comes into play also.


wider tip narrower tail has more taper angle.
Ok am a bit confused now since the ski I'm looking at seems to have both a wide tip and wide tail which may cancel each other out!

So would the dimensions 117-69-101 for the Crossmax V12 (turn radius 16.2m) be classified as a ski that is easy to slip out of the rails or hard to slip out of the rails?
post #47 of 47
[quote=Dr. Will;648183]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

Ok am a bit confused now since the ski I'm looking at seems to have both a wide tip and wide tail which may cancel each other out!

So would the dimensions 117-69-101 for the Crossmax V12 (turn radius 16.2m) be classified as a ski that is easy to slip out of the rails or hard to slip out of the rails?
16mm taper angle is quite a bit . So it should be fairly versatile. It is not a matter of slipping. think about a ski up on edge, if the tip and tail are of equal or close to eqaul width, how the tip and tail would contact the snow. The back of the arc would be very prononced.

On the othrer hand think of a ski with a wide taip and a much narrower tail up on edg, the back of the arc would be much less [proninced and not "lock" the ski into as much of an arc at the back of the arc, allowing you to more easily release the turn.

In both cases a wide tip helps draw into the arc.
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