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How to: Base bevel maintenance.

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
OK, so I skied over somthing nasty, as did the rest of the family, and there are parallel nicks along the base edge that look alot like claw marks. Some even extend slightly into the base material.

On one pair, I could change the base bevel, and move from 0.5 -> 1 degree (Atomic SL-11M). Does that mean I should go for a 3.5 degree side bevel too?

I'm thinking either base grind, or leave it.

How long, and what tool, should I use to DIY a base grind? A normal bastard file will not be up to par.
post #2 of 21
BigE,

Quote:
I'm thinking either base grind, or leave it.
That is pretty much your only 2 options. If the ski is over a season old (60 - 120 days), you should consider a base grind providing it hasn't been ground more than 2 times before. If it has been ground more than 2 times- leave it, the ski has little life left. If the ski is pretty new (less than 60 days), I would wait to grind it until it really needs it.

RW
post #3 of 21
Or light pass with a gummi stone.
post #4 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
BigE,


If it has been ground more than 2 times- leave it, the ski has little life left.
RW
Am I understanding you correctly that a ski can only be ground 2 or 3 times? Do you feel this is the same for a snowboard?
post #5 of 21
I recently started a thread on this as I have never actually ground so many times that the base wore thin. This 2-3 times is news to me too.

any opinions on how much grinding is too much, not to derail this thread. Nobody else in my other thread ever did so either.

Big E, there are a few base-bevel tools out there to give you some options, I'll let the shop guys get on the options. They can be expensive.

Aside from that, why do you feel you have to reset the bevel?
Are the claw marks edge burrs? They are quite common early season and come from those little pebbles in the snow. Not just big rocks. I just polish them away with a diamond stone. Resetting your edge bevel from.5 to 1 is not a bad idea, but if you can make the burrs go away by only filing another .5 away, perhaps it's not that big of an issue to begin with.

If someone pops in here and tells me not to stone grind more than a few times for the life of the ski, I won't. But I was considering just doing a mid-season grind instead of an early season grind next year. (or both). I'm starting to wonder if we skiers (not racers) actually grind our stuff as often as would be allowed.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
I'm pretty shocked as well to hear that a ski has two base grinds in it.

Maybe the problem is the definition of base grind.

Ron,

Are you assuming that the base grind will return the ski to a flat 0 degree base bevel?
post #7 of 21
I don't know who is doing your base grinds but if you can only get two or three somebody is taking alot of material.

I would not change bevels to compensate for a burr or gouges in the edge material. Yes, if you want to get every little bit of evidence of the damage out of your edge, you could sand and grind it away but in reality if you simply remove the burr and repair any base damage, you will preserve the life of the ski and probably never notice the indentations left in the edge. I would not change the bevels to compensate. Use the bevels that are appropriate. Now I have not ever posted in this arena about bevels so I have no idea what people are recommending, but in general on more carvey skis i like a .7 base and 3 degree side, on a midfat or wider I like a 1 base and 2 side, for what it's worth. This is assuming your boots are properly balanced, if not, you may need to compensate with more or less base bevel.

bud
post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'm pretty shocked as well to hear that a ski has two base grinds in it.

Maybe the problem is the definition of base grind.

Ron,

Are you assuming that the base grind will return the ski to a flat 0 degree base bevel?
Skis can be ground more then 2 or 3 times. And yes, the idea of a base grind is to reset the base bevel to flat. Not necessarily flatten the bases espescially wwith Atomic skis!

Bige with that said, don't worry about the base edge, diamond stone the heck out of your 3 degree side edge with a progression of diamonds from 100 to 400 and then polish with an arkansas stone knock off the hanging burr and go ski on 'em.

If you really want to be anal wiothout a stonegrind and this is exactly what i would do unless your skis reallly need the base bevel reset

Read this do step #8 and you will be good to go!!!!http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...our%20Skis.pdf

this is called backfiling and is the only way to get a really good true 3 degree side edge! qwill also clean up your edges without touching the base edge except for knocking off the hanging burr!

trust me here dude, I have done this numerous times! Just as expalined in #8 a 1 degree and 3.5 is not the same as a .5 & 3. even thoguh the final angle might bee the same the chskiing characteristics are complelty different, becaus e the shape of that angle is different. ie more base bevel more acute sideedge bevel.
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thank you A-man.

My current regimen is to first go side with black DMT diamond stone, then side with the blue stone. This creates a burr, which I knock down free-hand with the blue stone ( all stones wet). Finally, the red DMT stone on sides, and knock down the burr free-hand with the same stone. At that point I'm done sharpening.

Sure things'll change with nasty edge damage, but for the most part, I follow the above. Obviously, not a lot to do on the base, but that's ok.

I take away a bit of sidewall if the side edge bevelling does not work so quickly, and sometimes free-hand a chrome file just above the edge to remove any cap that is in the way. I don't need to do that with vertical sidewall. A much preferred technology.
post #10 of 21
wow, twice in 1 day! We may be forging a relationship here!!!

PS

Sorry for my lousy typing in the previous post! the Sterling Vineyards Cab probably didn't help!
post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Sorry for my lousy typing in the previous post! the Sterling Vineyards Cab probably didn't help!
That explains a lot. Would continuing consumption of the Sterling while typing ever cause you to suggest using files for sharpening or would you pass out before that would ever happen?

(The Mac Spellchecker is invaluable for me.....especially with libations nearby.)
post #12 of 21

So

None of you polish out the scratches with a coarse gummi first, then diamond to spec?
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Thank you A-man.

My current regimen is to first go side with black DMT diamond stone, then side with the blue stone. This creates a burr, which I knock down free-hand with the blue stone ( all stones wet). Finally, the red DMT stone on sides, and knock down the burr free-hand with the same stone. At that point I'm done sharpening.

Sure things'll change with nasty edge damage, but for the most part, I follow the above. Obviously, not a lot to do on the base, but that's ok.

I take away a bit of sidewall if the side edge bevelling does not work so quickly, and sometimes free-hand a chrome file just above the edge to remove any cap that is in the way. I don't need to do that with vertical sidewall. A much preferred technology.
give backfilling with a Cross (Panser file) a try start 2 to 3 degrees over your final side edge bevel and then follow the balance of the steps in #8 in the article.

this works like a champ and much better then a sidewall planer. particularly effective with a vertical sidewall, since you are not weakening or cutting back (removing) the structure that supports the edge. you are angling it so you end up with a true 3 degree.

Again I wouldn't touch your base edge and just "Pimp up" the side edge as much as possible. If this turns out to be unsatisfactory after you ski them, you must base grind and start from scratch!
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
I'll need to get some shims for the side edge bevel guide then. I use Toko stuff, so it's easy to add a shim between the file and bevel guide to increase the angle. eg. 3 degree guide plus 2 degree shim for the cross file backfiling.

Got to find some shims, or just make one up. It doesn't have to be super accurate....
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'll need to get some shims for the side edge bevel guide then. I use Toko stuff, so it's easy to add a shim between the file and bevel guide to increase the angle. eg. 3 degree guide plus 2 degree shim for the cross file backfiling.

Got to find some shims, or just make one up. It doesn't have to be super accurate....
yeah, the 5 degree probably does not have to be that accurate, but maybe the 4 does and definetly the 3 does, but I assume you are baxck toyour tool with no shims.

I use TOKO base beveler, but SVSt side edge bevel, I have a 92, 2 93's and a 94 and 2, 1 degee, a 2 & a 3 degree shim and 4 spring clips!

let's me make lots of combos or 3 93's so I don't have to change stones!

I also have one of these clamps shown as the first item. really works well but not as weel with shims installed. Sportna Oprema is Holmenkol's premium tuning products

http://www.holmenkol.us/cartproducts...sstat=&ref=323
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Yep, I'm just going to try adding some duct tape under one side of the file on the side beveller. Or taping a narrow plastic scraper to the tool, so that one edge fits under the file to increase the angle.
post #17 of 21
If you add a shim, as I have done as well, use something other than tape that doesn't pack out. Also, clamp some sort of guide to run along the side of the ski to keep the shim a consistent distance from your edge.

then get a sharpie and draw a line along the edge so you can witness just how much edge you take off.

if you're not concerned about accuracy and willing to use a shim, you can still keep it consistent.
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai View Post
If you add a shim, as I have done as well, use something other than tape that doesn't pack out. Also, clamp some sort of guide to run along the side of the ski to keep the shim a consistent distance from your edge.

then get a sharpie and draw a line along the edge so you can witness just how much edge you take off.

if you're not concerned about accuracy and willing to use a shim, you can still keep it consistent.
He is only taklking about using a shim to backfile! this is a process where you use a panser file and start 2 -3 degrees of side bevel angle more thne your final bevel angle. His final angle will be done with no shims, just a 3 degree side edge beveler.
post #19 of 21
Thread Starter 
Duct tape alone is bogus - I tried it. One needs a real shim -- the problem is that duct tape is too compressive. What happens is the file just sticks strainght out, as if the "shim" was not there.
post #20 of 21
Boy, if I didn't know any better, it was sounding like you were kludging together an expensive multi-tool using duct tape......and shims upon shims

Good and helpful discussion, clarifications and insights.
post #21 of 21
BigE,

Quote:
I'm pretty shocked as well to hear that a ski has two base grinds in it.
Some skis have very thin bases and only have 2 grinds in them (some only one if the teck. is heavy handed). A grind takes the base down to flat, then a new base bevel is put on. If the base bevel is reground too deep, beyond the edge and extending into the base, the edge keys may start to be visible. Some Atomic skis also have a concave base toward the tip that is hard to grind and keep it's concave shape.

REntal skis on the other hand have very thick and hard bases, so they have many grinds in them. Be aware that most high performance skis do have thin edges and bases, and grinding takes it off much faster than hand filing.
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