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Bumps MA Request - Page 2

post #31 of 46
Thread Starter 
Bud -
I've watched your running skirmishes with tdk6 over teaching basics and turn initiation. It's been interesting and entertaining (though I will admit when it started I had a hard time figuring out exactly what you disagreed about).

But let me ask you -- in this one particular case (up-unweighting getting mixed up into bump technique), do you think this is a plausible explanation? Or do you think something else is going on?
post #32 of 46
I apologize to you mdf, for diverting from the threads topic. I don't think any "up unweighting" is an issue for you in the bumps, as I understand "up-unweighting". I would suggest that your pressure management skills could be developed. It looks like you are not absorbing the bump as well as possible which tends to unweight you a bit. What you are demonstrating, by my definition, is "terrain unweighting" synonymous with TDK6's understanding is UP unweighting. I can now understand this point of view and realize this particular point of contention between us may just be two different understandings of the same action. I have no qualms with this. It is a plausible issue, as TDK6 understands unweighting.

My caution is against watching a video of a "preturn" or "edge check" in the bumps as I suspect may be offered to you by TDK6 and thinking this is the way to ski bumps. There are much better images than this for you to watch and emulate, ones that demostrate fluidity, flexion and extension, a taller neutral stance with less ankle flex, effective anticipation release, a narrow stance with simultaneous movements, etc.. TDK6 skiing bumps is probably not the best image to keep in your mind.

I see a need for your legs to be more supple to enable you to absorb and extend so that you upper body can remain quieter. As someone else pointed out, I see a little asymetry between turns though I would like to see more turns before commenting too much on this. It is apparrent though that your initiations turning to your left are sequential movements which seem to negate any anticipation release to help start your turns. Try to absorb the crest of the bump while changing edges and use the convex shape to pivot the skis during the edge change and extend into the valleys. allow your hips move over the feet as they crest the mogul and pull the feet back a bit to drop the tips down the back side. Use your pole plant to block or hold steady your upper body and allow some unwinding of the stretched muscles to help direct your skis into the new turn.

Hopefully somebody will post some good video of Jerry Berg, Bob Barnes, or Schanzy or Eric Ward skiing the bumps at ESA Aspen. These are some good images for you to emulate!

good luck and best wishes

b
post #33 of 46
Thread Starter 
Bud -
Thx.
post #34 of 46
Thread Starter 

just for the record---

I dont agree with everything tdk6 says in the various technique discussions, but in this one particular case I'm still with him.

On the narrow question: "Why is my timing off in the bumps?"
I think a big part of the answer is
"You have a habit of up-unweighting from 30 yrs of sking straight skis, and it is bleeding through and contaminating your bump technique."

And yes, here I mean the American sense of up-unweighting, a raising of the center of mass caused by muscular effort of the leg muscles.

There are lots of other things going on, too, obviously. On some of them, what other people have said rings true. There are some things tdk advocates that I dont agree with. There are some things Bud advocates I dont agree with. Here, I'm only talking about this one particular aspect.

- Mike
post #35 of 46
Unfortunately, I can't watch this video with any of my codecs. What format is it? Bud, what did you use to watch it? I get this: main: no suitable decoder module for fourcc `IV50'.
post #36 of 46
Fair enough Mdf, I am glad that you are able to take what you like and make your own decisions. I also spent many years skiing straight skis and do not believe that pressure management issues in the moguls has changed with the transition to shaped skis one iota?? but that's just me.

I do see you unweighting but it does not look intentional it looks resultant.

Steve, I dunno? I just clicked on it and it opened. You know me better than that, if I had to search for a program to open it, I would have been SOL.

b
post #37 of 46
mdf, FWIW, I'm not sure the cause is all that important. The approach to a fix is. I find the biggest issue I see in most folks bump skiing is their need for an active and timely extension after the maximum flex created by the need to absorb the bump. Many folks will not extend enough after that, and many will get continuously compressed by the bumps and eventually run out of available flex.

Just ask cgeib...

That said, I still can't watch the video. I've downloaded a bunch of different codecs in an effort to see it, but I can't. Oh, well. If I get a minute, I'll try it on a Windows machine.
post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
On the narrow question: "Why is my timing off in the bumps?"
I think a big part of the answer is
"You have a habit of up-unweighting from 30 yrs of sking straight skis, and it is bleeding through and contaminating your bump technique."

And yes, here I mean the American sense of up-unweighting, a raising of the center of mass caused by muscular effort of the leg muscles.

- Mike
Unweighting your skis in America does not differ from unweighing them in Japan or in Europe. Same gravity. Your problem is far from unique. Most problems skiers experiance in America are the same problems skiers experiance in other parts of the world.

Why is your timing off in the bumps? My take on this is that when you ski you initiate your turns by up-unweighting and that means that you stand tall at the transition and then you flex through the turn. This way of extending and flexing cannot work in bumps because you need to flex and extend according to terrain and bumps. So what you need to do is to find a way of turning that does not include the need for standing tall at transition and flexing through out the turn. The beauty of bumps is that you can and you should use the bumps to do the unweighting job for you and pick a line through the mogul field that supports your intentions. Remember that you should adapt your turns to the bumps and dont even try to turn in the wrong place just to keep up a certain rhythm.
post #39 of 46
Well, I found a codec that works and so finally watched it.

mdf, what I see is that you're flexing very little as you move your skis up the bumps, and extending very little into the trough. You are actually pretty smooth considering this limited flex/extend movement. Regardless of how it feels, you are not unweighting in any of these turns in any way. Your skis stay on the snow and there isn't excessive up movements in this skiing. You are pivoting as you change edges, but that is not an unweighting movement (at least not by modern American ski instruction definitions).

My efforts with you would be to help you absorb the bumps through greater flexion and then actively extend into the troughs. At the speed you're skiing this terrain, this would be quite simple. Allow your skis to ride up the bump you're approaching and your feet to get ahead of you as they do that. If you don't let them get ahead of you, you'll have very little flex available due to the limited ankle movement we have in ski boots, and I think that this is a primary cause of the limited flexion. If your feet ride up in front of you instead, your knees (and hips and spine) can flex to allow the skis to move closer to your torso.

As you crest the bump, your feet slow in relation to your upper body (this is natural, they've been going uphill while you're upper body has continued on its downhill trajectory if your flexing and extending well), and your body effectively moves ahead of your feet and down the backside of the bump. This latter move is the typical movement of your body mass ahead of your skis to keep the tips engaged early in the turn, and it is even more dramatic in the bumps.

Because you're not using a lot of flex or extend in these turns, your ability to make these movements with your body core is limited. Once you start extending into the troughs you'll find that you can ride your skis/feet up the next bump more easily, flex more deeply to maintain a smooth flow of your core, and extend again into the next bump.

I find that when I'm helping skiers to learn this, doing the movements one bump at a time as a drill can help them feel it. There are a few drills that seem to work well for helping skiers feel this, if you're interested.
post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Unweighting your skis in America does not differ from unweighing them in Japan or in Europe. Same gravity.
The definition of "unweighting" apparently differs a lot. Here in the US, "unweighting" means to use muscle movement or terrain to reduce the pressure on the skis below that applied by the body and turning forces. At its extreme, the skis leave the snow. In the majority of turns made these days, skiers manage forces to keep the skis from unweighting in this way, instead harnessing those forces to increase the effectiveness of the skis through the snow.
post #41 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
The definition of "unweighting" apparently differs a lot. Here in the US, "unweighting" means to use muscle movement or terrain to reduce the pressure on the skis below that applied by the body and turning forces. At its extreme, the skis leave the snow. In the majority of turns made these days, skiers manage forces to keep the skis from unweighting in this way, instead harnessing those forces to increase the effectiveness of the skis through the snow.
I get your point perfectly well but IMO mdf is unweighting by muscle movement. He should in fact unweight by using the bump lift insted. Thats what bumps are there for. That is what we should used them for. Now he unweights by muscle movement and then right after he is forced to deal with the bumps.
post #42 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I get your point perfectly well but IMO mdf is unweighting by muscle movement. He should in fact unweight by using the bump lift insted. Thats what bumps are there for. That is what we should used them for. Now he unweights by muscle movement and then right after he is forced to deal with the bumps.
Well, there you go. We see very different things in his skiing. I see almost no leg flex/extend to cause any unweighting (or absorption!). And I don't see his skis being lightened at transition (rather carrying extra forces due to the lack of absorption, making them more difficult to redirect into the new turn).

I still think a focus on the "backpedal" movement that Bob Barnes has illustrated on EpicSki would be the best option for improvement.
post #43 of 46
Attack. These bumps are not that steep. Get aggressive.
post #44 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Unweighting your skis in America does not differ from unweighing them in Japan or in Europe. Same gravity. Your problem is far from unique. Most problems skiers experiance in America are the same problems skiers experiance in other parts of the world.

Why is your timing off in the bumps? My take on this is that when you ski you initiate your turns by up-unweighting and that means that you stand tall at the transition and then you flex through the turn. This way of extending and flexing cannot work in bumps because you need to flex and extend according to terrain and bumps. So what you need to do is to find a way of turning that does not include the need for standing tall at transition and flexing through out the turn. The beauty of bumps is that you can and you should use the bumps to do the unweighting job for you and pick a line through the mogul field that supports your intentions. Remember that you should adapt your turns to the bumps and dont even try to turn in the wrong place just to keep up a certain rhythm.
I agree here with you TDK6!

Unweighting skis anywhere in the world does not vary however, our terminology and understanding of what is happening does vary. This is what has caused some confusion and disagreement here at Epic.
We (here in the US) differentiate between "active" and "passive" unweighting.

Active unweighting includes our internal efforts to up-unweight or down-unweight. This is easily demonstrated standing on a bathroom scale. When you stand in a flexed position on the scale then extend abruptly the weight will momentarily increase followed by a period of unweighting. We label this "up unweighting". Conversely, if you stand in a tall position on the scale and flex abruptly you will see a momentary decrease in weight (we label this down unweighting) followed by a momentary increase in weight. Both of these movements are active efforts on the skier's part to affect a weight change under the feet.

Passive unweighting occurs from terrain variations that lighten the skis (terrain unweighting) or as a result of the energy stored in a decambered ski that is released (Rebound unweighting).

This is where I see our interpretations vary. Some Countries may generalize and group any up movements (passive or active) as "UP unweighting, where we tend to discern how this up movement was generated. (ie: Cannonball's short turns in the "exquisite short turn" thread.

We are seeing the same thing but using two different understandings of what we see to describe it.

b
post #45 of 46
Thread Starter 
Wow. That stirred things up!


ssh - I apologize on the video. The "larger but more compatible" version probably would have worked for you, but I pasted the address wrong.

ssh - I agree I am not doing much flexing here. I didn't think these conditions needed much. I will try to get some video of more difficult bumps - I suspect that if I ski them the same style, you'd see real absorbing and unweighting in the same (mistimed) places there are just hints of them here.

My point was not that there is much upunweighting here (tho I'd disagree w/ "none" - the lightening does not have to go all the way to zero, skis off snow, to be unweighting). My point was the habitual movement patterns on flat snow are carrying over into bumps.

To put the same point in less extreme terms -- and this really matches up w/ some of therusty's comments near the beginning -- I tend to be tall in transitions and short when I turn, which makes it difficult to extend and turn on the backsides of the bumps. It also makes me tend to stand up too early.

Phil - for me, "attacking" bumps tends to turn into the slam-slam-slam style, which (tho I reserve the right to do sometimes) was not what I was trying to do here.

ssh - as I said, on harder bumps I absorb more. Aside from the timing issue, I suspect (tho need to "watch myself ski" to make sure) I fold rather than absorb with the legs. IFIRC, that makes me the little yellow guy in the backpedaling animations.

I'll be at JH this week, and I've seen rumors in various threads that they have more bumps than normal. Good chance to practice. (Oh yeah - what were those exercises you mentioned, ssh?)

Thanks for your time and attention, everyone.
post #46 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
Well, there you go. We see very different things in his skiing. I see almost no leg flex/extend to cause any unweighting (or absorption!). And I don't see his skis being lightened at transition (rather carrying extra forces due to the lack of absorption, making them more difficult to redirect into the new turn).

I still think a focus on the "backpedal" movement that Bob Barnes has illustrated on EpicSki would be the best option for improvement.
He should flex and extend more offcourse but the reason he cannot do that is because he is used to extend at the very moment he should be flexing. A very common misstake BTW. Backpedalling is more a way of doing something that mdf is not doing. Backpedalling BTW is just an illustration of what is happening as you flex in bumps. As BobB so rightly points out in his methology is that ancle flex does not happen in bumps. The discussion has been wether you need soft boots in moguls and backpealling proves that stiff boots work as well.

mdf BTW skis well in bumps and only needs to get the timing issue settled between his ears and flex more.
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