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Bumps MA Request

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
A couple of inches of new snow over solid bumps on MLK day
(15 jan 2007) at Sugarloaf (Maine) on Skidder.
(Same videl link posted in video sticky).

http://home.comcast.net/~mdf_ski_web...owderbumps.avi

The bumps were a good shape with an even rhythm. (Thanks to whoever carved them earlier in the season.)

I was trying to take advantage of the even shape and the new snow to ski a smooth, even line through them. I went about half way up the side of each bump and tried to stay out of the bottom of the troughs.

This was my first day in soft snow on these skis (Rossi B3's). I like 'em.

I was happy with how this run felt. What does every one else think?
post #2 of 46
Sound only for me.
post #3 of 46
Thread Starter 
Drat. I'll try encoding with a different codec.
post #4 of 46
Thread Starter 
Maybe--

http://home.comcast.net/~mdf_ski_web...owderbumps.avi

Nah - that one doesn't even work for me!
post #5 of 46
Try right clicking on the first link and "save target as".
I have real trouble with my eyes in flat light (I hear this is common with contact lens wearers) and such I tend to not be as proactive with absorbing the bumps because I can't really see them! It looks like you may have that same issue. Anyhow, on the rare occasions that I remember, I try to really exaggerating the absorbing in those conditions and it helps alot. Maybe that will help you?
post #6 of 46
Thread Starter 
Ok.
This one is two and a half times as large, but plays in windows media viewer or quicktime (at least for me)
C:\photos\2007_movies\2007_01_15\powderbumps2.avi

The first one plays in WMV but not QT, I think.

To clarify - when I said "smooth line" I meant I was trying to make S's staying about the same distance up the sides. So I didn't think a lot of absorbtion was called for. I would have liked to do another run going over the tops, cause I suspect I may fold in the wrong place when I do absorb (but that's not in this clip).
post #7 of 46
Thread Starter 
I went back and looked again - I think it may be more a matter of the new snow keeping my speed down that makes absorption kinda irrelevant here.

Maybe could use a little more? Don't know for sure.
post #8 of 46
MDF,

Nice straight line, good strong pole touches with hands mostly kept in front, and good extension on the back side of the bumps to keep skis in contact with the snow.

You have a habit of skidding in to the tops of the bumps (e.g. the two right turns at 4 and 6 seconds and the left turn at 7 seconds). If you'd work the skis more coming down the back sides, you wouldn't slam so hard on the face (yes I know it's very satisfying to slam into the bump face). On your left turns you tend to lean the upper body into the turn (your upper body is more upright on your right turns). This is causing the sloppiness in your wide stance width as you come up the face of the bump in the top half of the left turn. Have you had your alignment checked? It's possible your left foot is out of whack and causing the trouble here. There's a very odd looking bend to the left leg on the left turn at 3 seconds and the left leg at the left turn at 4 seconds is not generating a lot of edge angle. You can see your legs in an "A" shape on most of your left turns. The camera angle hides the right turns, but they look ok at best guess. It could be alignment or it could be technique. If it's technique, turning the skis more before the slam (and scarving the backside) should let you slam less and get a cleaner entry into the next turn.

(I saved as the original link and viewed the video with V1).
post #9 of 46
Thread Starter 
Rusty -
Thanks for taking a look and taking the time to comment.

I see what you mean about the left-right difference. I never noticed that on snow, but I see it in the video. I feel pretty aligned, but I did break one of my feet several years ago (oddly enough, I can't remember which one!).

On the skid to the slam, I do sometimes do that on purpose, but as a "smooth" line I was specifically trying not to do that on this run. So I'll count that as a bug, rather than a feature.

When you say "work the skis on the backside" I understand the basic principle but I'm going to have to think about what it means in practice. I think extending and turning at the same time may be a new movement pattern for me (good for the groomers too, I guess). I suspect my route finding is tied to the backsides being straight lines, too, so that'll need some jiggering as well.
post #10 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
So I'll count that as a bug, rather than a feature.
Uh oh, another IT guy!

I was thinking last night that another reason for this might have been a double fall line. It looks like there might be a small left to right break in these bumps. It's real hard to tell on camera.

Regarding alignment, if you have not been checked it might be worth doing it. But if you could get video of yourself skiing straight into the camera with flat skis on a flat trail (e.g. cat track), it would be interesting if the gurus here could diagnose online. If you do this, for grins, get a side view on the same trail so that we can look at fore/aft alignment.

When I say work the backside, I mean turn the skis AND engage the edge vs just skidding the skis in the rut. Bumps are all about speed control. The problem is tied to route finding. When you are thinking zipperline as a path for the upper body, it's hard to get the skis thinking totally opposite of zipper. Also, when you are bending at the waist to absorb the bumps, it slows your ability to get your legs extended laterally away from the body to get effective edging on the backsides.
post #11 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
Ok.
This one is two and a half times as large, but plays in windows media viewer or quicktime (at least for me)
C:\photos\2007_movies\2007_01_15\powderbumps2.avi

The first one plays in WMV but not QT, I think.

To clarify - when I said "smooth line" I meant I was trying to make S's staying about the same distance up the sides. So I didn't think a lot of absorbtion was called for. I would have liked to do another run going over the tops, cause I suspect I may fold in the wrong place when I do absorb (but that's not in this clip).
I still cannot view the video.
post #12 of 46
MDF, it's not so much that you aren't absorbing enough for those bumps in that snow, but it happens just a little late. Like maybe 6" late. If you don't start absorbing until you feel the bump, the more movement you need. It's hard to start absorbing just before you get to the bump if you can't see exactly where it is, and I just wondered if that may be why it's late. Also, if you wait until you feel the bump and don't quickly and powerfully flex the knees, you are going to fold at the waist. That happens to all of us (me : ) sometimes in bumps anyways, but it's not a good way to ski a whole run. BTW, I think you did a pretty good job in what can be very difficult conditions.
post #13 of 46
Thread Starter 
MIlesB - I see your point. The slow speed may have changed my timing, more than the visibilty - the new snow made it feel like slow motion. Usually my problem is reacting fast enough to keep up with what happens.

tdk -- I brought out the big hammer -- I uploaded to Google video. The picture quality is a lot poorer than the previous avi files, but it should be viewable by everyone (I hope). Here is the link
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...60725652&hl=en
post #14 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
MIlesB - I see your point. The slow speed may have changed my timing, more than the visibilty - the new snow made it feel like slow motion. Usually my problem is reacting fast enough to keep up with what happens.

tdk -- I brought out the big hammer -- I uploaded to Google video. The picture quality is a lot poorer than the previous avi files, but it should be viewable by everyone (I hope). Here is the link
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...60725652&hl=en
Good skiing and a really retro video quality . Im not going to comment on your bump skiing before you take a look at my video in my bump thread. After that we can have a discussion about your skiing here in your thread.
post #15 of 46
Thread Starter 
tdk - thanks.
No time for substance right now. THis is a ten minute break that got a lot longer. Back to work!
post #16 of 46
mdf, ok. Im off skiing for two days so I will not be able to get back to you before the weekend but I would like to quickly comment on one very eye catching difference in your skiing versus mine. If you look at yourselfe in the video you can see that you flex in the vallies and extend on the bumps. This is minor movement but the bumps sort of emphasize this movement pattern. This is completely natural because this is the way you ski normally. You flex as you come to the end of your turn and then you extend in order to up-unweight and turn. In bumps however, it works the other way arround. You should extend through the vallies and flex as you pass over the bumps.
post #17 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post


If you'd work the skis more coming down the back sides, you wouldn't slam so hard on the face (yes I know it's very satisfying to slam into the bump face).
This is a key issue. You are not 'on' your turn early and as they move straight into the fall line. You are 'letting go' as you fall towards the bottom of the turn. Start the turn earlier and firm up the rest of the turn. This issue is causing you to rescue the turn by crashing into the bump - not good.

The way you stand, your posture is causing your energy (not endurance energy), the energy delivered through your body, to disipate. I would like to suggest that you stand with good posture and firm up. This makes a big difference in my bump skiing. This is also helpful in getting a good mind set to get the job done and to stay in a good line.

You need some work on your pole plant, too. Later on that.

BTW I have no MA qualifications. Bumps are a strong aspect of my skiing.
post #18 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
...comment on your bump skiing before you take a look at my video in my bump thread.
That would be a good idea. There is good discussion there.

Also, look at the back pedaling thread. Your center of mass is too far back.

And...I would also like to say, you have a lot to work with. Attention to detail will equal big benfits. Give us some more vids as you improve!
post #19 of 46
Here's what I look for:
1) Weight NEVER back. Pull both feet back as you crest over a bump, and keep pulling the inside foot back all the time as you ski.
2) Feet rather close together. This is important on the front or side of a very steep bump.
3) Pre-absorb the bump. Make an effort to begin flexing your knees toward your chest (and flexing hips & ankles and keep your weight forward) before you hit the bump. Extend on the downside of the bump, then pre-absorb the next. For me, "pre-absorbing" means that I end up absorbing just at the right time, not too late.
4) Both hands are in front, the inside hand is up and forward, the outside hand has the elbow low and cocked and has the pole ready to plant before you cross the fall line and the pole never reaches forward past the fall line. (You look OK here except the last turn.) The shoulders always tilt downhill, never back toward the hill. Having the pole ready to plant before you cross the fall line allows quicker choice of which bump to turn on next.
5) Control your speed as you cross the steep part of the bump by part-carve & part-skid.

You know how you felt during the run better than the vid shows the rest of us.


Ken
post #20 of 46
Thread Starter 
Too much info to sort through carefully right now.
Thanks all.
One Q occurs to me tho.... if I absorb "before the bump pushes back" wont that eliminate the speed control effect of absorption?
post #21 of 46
No, all it does is get everything already moving, so that the bump doesn't push back, it pushes your legs in the direction they are already going. If you wait until the bump pushes back, the slight delay in moving from extending to flexing means that you don't absorb the initial shock. Which is why it's then necessary to flex deeper for the same absorbing effect.

BTW, I'm sure he didn't invent it, but I got all this from Harald Harb.

Also the speed control part comes from altering the natural flow of your body. Think about being on a swing, you are swinging back and forth very high and you bring yourself to a standstill in 3 or 4 swings. It's that kind of motion, I have no idea what specific body movements occur for it to happen.
post #22 of 46
Speed control comes from being ready to turn at any time, turning as sharply as you need, finishing your turn more uphill as terrain allows, and from the action of your skis on the downhill part of the bump (I'd call it the face; others call the top the face...whatever.) Using carving action on the vertical part of the bump, but letting the carve brush out, slip out, slid out, whatever, in a controlled fashion gives the most speed control at this point.

Hitting the top of a bump hard causes a temporary loss of control, doesn't it? Even for a very short time for the best? When you hit with a whoosh or a wham, do you have control at that instant? Control is always needed; you only have control when the edges of the front half of your skis are in contact with the snow and you're ready to use them.

The bump skiers with the most control are the smoothest, not the ones that slam every bump.


Ken
post #23 of 46

Here's a different take on speed control in the bumps

Speed control in the bumps comes from friction and from gravity. You can control friction through turn shape + edge angle and through extension and absorption to maintain or not maintain ski/snow contact. You can control speed through gravity by turn shape (e.g. having an uphill component to the turn slows you down, having a downhill component speeds you up) and through extension and absorption (e.g. absorbing the face of a bump will slow you down, extending to maintain ski snow contact in a straight line down the hill speeds you up).
post #24 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Speed control in the bumps comes from friction and from gravity. You can control friction through turn shape + edge angle and through extension and absorption to maintain or not maintain ski/snow contact. You can control speed through gravity by turn shape (e.g. having an uphill component to the turn slows you down, having a downhill component speeds you up) and through extension and absorption (e.g. absorbing the face of a bump will slow you down, extending to maintain ski snow contact in a straight line down the hill speeds you up).
That's it!
post #25 of 46
Thread Starter 
I was looking at my absorption again, and I think maybe it is not so much that I am absorbing late, but that I am extending too soon. This is particularly clear when I come over the bump 2 seconds in. I stand up before I get over the top of the bump.

I don't think this is entirely a matter of up-unweighting to pivot, either, though it may be where it started. In my memory of what it feels like to ski bumps, the sensation of falling down the backside is prominent.
post #26 of 46
Thread Starter 

I think this is a key insight

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
...If you look at yourselfe in the video you can see that you flex in the vallies and extend on the bumps. ... This is completely natural because this is the way you ski normally. You flex as you come to the end of your turn and then you extend in order to up-unweight and turn. In bumps however, it works the other way arround.
I think tdk's insight is exactly why my up-down sequence is off. I'm trying to avoid the "big slam" style and turn on the tops & backs. So since I do have a pronounced up-unweight in my default turns, that means I up-unweight as I come over the top. Combined with the natural effect of the terrain, I get an even more pronounced up than on flat terrain.

I haven;t had a chance to ski since the video, but I can think of a couple of experiments I want to try (in order to watch myself skiing and discover what I actually do).

I've discovered my desk-chair analysis of my own skiing is not all that reliable, but I think I am absorbing the first part of the rise of the bump for speed control, and then extending for an up-unweight on the rest of the rise. Have to ski again to find out for sure.
post #27 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
I think tdk's insight is exactly why my up-down sequence is off. I'm trying to avoid the "big slam" style and turn on the tops & backs. So since I do have a pronounced up-unweight in my default turns, that means I up-unweight as I come over the top. Combined with the natural effect of the terrain, I get an even more pronounced up than on flat terrain.

I haven;t had a chance to ski since the video, but I can think of a couple of experiments I want to try (in order to watch myself skiing and discover what I actually do).

I've discovered my desk-chair analysis of my own skiing is not all that reliable, but I think I am absorbing the first part of the rise of the bump for speed control, and then extending for an up-unweight on the rest of the rise. Have to ski again to find out for sure.
mdf, good to hear that you think I might be on to something here. The up and down movement pattern is a habbit that is very hard to brake so it may take some time for you to work it out the right way. Note that in modern skiing you should be shifting your weight laterally, not horisontally. In order to turn you dont need to raise yourself up to unweight your skis and make them skid. Only thing you need to do is shift weight sideways between your skis.
post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
if I absorb "before the bump pushes back" wont that eliminate the speed control effect of absorption?
traditionally we're taught to be "tall to turn" and then to bend our legs (shorten) into the second half of the turn

another idea is to be shorter at the start of the turn and then extend (lengthen) into the second half of the turn and then to shorten again as you transition into the next turn

where do you turn in the bumps?

the body of a bump is higher than the natural slope would be and the trough is lower than the natural slope would be. if I shorten my legs when atop the bump and extend them into the lower surfaces then I will be able to make full/complete turns

the turn is what controls my speed
post #29 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post
traditionally we're taught ...
Exactly - I skied long straight skis with a big up-unweight for a lot of years. I'm trying to modernize my technique. Originally I thought the tall at transition/short in turn versus the oppoiste was a minor detail, but now I'm thinking it ought to be higher on my list of priorities.

Originally MilesB suggested that my timing was off, perhaps because of visibility. I could see what he meant, but the explanation did not ring true.

tdk's insight was that it only looked like a timing issue. It was actually the unweighting habit was showing up exaggerated in the bumps.

THese were not your typical bumps. The soft snow meant that only a relatively small amount of speed control was needed. I think I am actually doing two different things per bump - absorbing, then extending - on the same face. (I say think because I've found that once I go back on the snow and "watch myself" ski, it sometimes is different than I thought.) THat is not to say that I want to keep doing it that way, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by klkaye View Post
where do you turn in the bumps?
I ski a couple of different styles in bumps. On this particular run I was trying to turn on the uphill faces of the bump. It was suggested in some of the replys that it would be good to turn on the back (downhill) sides too, and I think I agree. My up habit makes this harder than it would be otherwise.

Two other slightly different topics:

On absorbing - you (or something, at least) has to do work to put energy into or take energy out of a system. Since work is force times distance, both are required. You have to have force - a limp collapse won't do anything. You have to have distance - a completely rigid collision with a bump won't do any good either.

On left/right asymmetry -- I noticed something at the gym a couple of days ago. One of the exercises I do is a sideways bend (like angulating) with a dumbell in one hand. I've noticed that it is a lot less awkward (feels better, am able to go straigher sideways without sticking my butt out, can get the dumbell closer to the floor) on the right side than the left. I'm thinking this might be related to the difference in my turns.
post #30 of 46
TDK6,
Would you like some MA on your skiing?..... If you would like to post a new thread with some of your skiing, I would bet you may get some good feedback?!

b
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