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Where have my bumps gone? - Opinions?

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Does anyone else miss the bumps of years past (pre-snowboarders)?

I have recently gotten back into skiing after a seven-year break to rehab some battered knees. Two noticeable differences: 1) they groom mountains a lot more now (blacks were NEVER groomed, now I hear Outer Limits is groomed!) and 2) when the bumps form, they are misshaped and too far apart.

Does anyone know of a resort experiment (apart from Alta) where they have tried some minimal separation of snowboards and skiers?

Why not a skiers-only bump run or two? I'd be happy to offer back a steep trail or two for nightly grooming and snowboards only.

Snowboarders seem to shudder at the sight of bumps. They start their slide early and pound a perpendicular face right onto a perfectly angled mogul. A few skiers reshape it properly and the whole bump moves down a foot. Bumps used to be bigger, softer, and closer together.

Wouldn't a little separation make both communities happier?
post #2 of 30
I have noticed that the bumps have changed shape with the advent of shaped skis as well. The carving action seems to make bumps more of a teardrop shape.
post #3 of 30
I don't believe it all snow boarders fault. Yes they do make bumps odd shaped, but they are not the reason so much grooming is taking place.

In my opinion the main cause of incessant grooming is the change in economics of ski areas. I believe lift tickets no longer are the main source of income for most ski areas. Real estate development and the fees associated with it (rental fees charged condo owners, cleaning fees, common charges, etc.) now seem to be where most of the money comes from. And who buys condos and townhouses? Families do not extreme skiers or ski bums. So resorts are making runs more family oriented and less extreme. Exceptions are resorts with little or no land for development, e.g., Alta, MRG.

With the loss of bump runs skiers no longer learn to ski bumps so there is less and less need for bump runs to help sell condos.
post #4 of 30
There still are some skiers' bumps, but they usually are in places snowboarders dare not come to. However, not that many skiers show up either, probably for the same reason. I agree - en masse, the bumps are not as challenging anymore as they used to be. Pragmatic - I think you are right: it is a chain reaction. Also I think the advent of carved turns available to most everybody has changed the proportion of sliding to carving; hence fewer ski-slid bumps.
post #5 of 30
While Taos is known for its Ridge, It has to be the best place for bumps. Since I've gotten older I don't enjoy the bumps like I used to, but I ski Taos every other weekend and there are more bump runs there than anyone could possibly ski in a weekend. Blacks are never groomed (never meaning almost never) and there are too many for my taste. Whether this is a result of their no snowboard policy or not I can not say. Even on easy wide blues groomers are careful to leave decent bump runs on the sides for those learning bumps and for those of us too tired and old to ski the black bumps all day.
post #6 of 30
For the most part boarders avoid bumps like the plague. They tend to round the bumps and make them easier for skiers to ski. That's not all that bad in my opinion.

Bumps disappeared at many resorts completely in the 80's and early 90's but have made somewhat of a comeback with the freestyle movement.

I have heard the complaints about bumps changing for 40 years. They really are kinda the same now as they were then. Equipment has changed but bumps are still bumps.
post #7 of 30
Also try Mary Jane. Many runs have "skiers bumps" straight down the fall line.
post #8 of 30
Have bumps changed? Certainly shaped skis, snowboards, etc will have some effect but for the most part that probably doesn't amount for much. Will bumps skied by good bump skiers look different than if only intermediates take a given slope? Certainly. Conditions of mogul runs will vary from resort to resort due to terrain and the amount of good skiers. One thing is certain today just as it was 20 years ago. That is that bumps vary considerably in shape and difficulty depending on slope steepness, snow quality, recent weather conditions, how long it has been since the last good snow, and the quality and amount of skiers on those slopes. If a nice dump of snow has just occurred, bumps will take some time to evolve back into recognizable shapes good bump skiers will be able to easily navigate through. Most of the big resorts in the West have enough bumpers to keep some runs looking much like they did years ago. But some won't look the same as before because there are considerable less skiers in the bumps today than say back in the 80s. Many advanced skiers now concentrate on all terrain and as some have related, resorts have not supported mogul slopes or skiers as they once did.

As for the terrain itself I've heard various things for years. It used to be that short skis (...suck) were supposed to be the cause of small bumps. Or that intermediates hacking their way down the slopes scraped away the good shape. Then when snowboarding began, some condemned them as the reason why bumps somehow were not well shaped such that they were now more difficult to ski. A few times I have listened to something like the above on the way up the lift and invited the person to take the bump run under the lift. I remember ripping down the slope a ways then stopping and watching the guy sheepishly exit away somewhere else. The truth is whether it is snowboarders or novice skiers scraping away at the bumps, the result of what they do actually makes it easier for me to ski through moguls because they smooth the shape so I can more easily ski anywhere on the bump. What does make it tougher is when a mogul run is being used for bump training where all skiers ski the same line and a real zipper line starts forming. That can make a mogul a bit weird for anyone which doesn't quite ski the same parts of moguls.

Is there such a thing as a bump line with great shape? Absolutely. It is also true that on any slope not frozen into hardpack, one will always find a lot of strange evolving shapes. A good skier learns to react and deal with any of them. -dave
post #9 of 30
WTG Dave. You gave some excellent insights!!
post #10 of 30
In my experience it is more to do with the way good skiers ski a slope than average skiers or boarders. It used to be that powder 8s and bump skiing were about the coolest thing you could do, but with fat and carving skis fresh snow is being sliced by long turns rather than pounded by short turns. It is just more fun for expert skiers to arc big turns down a slope than bounce down on a pogo stick. Straight skis imposed severe limitations on how fast you could ski fresh snow and steeps, and the short turns needed to control the speed inherently made moguls. With fat and carving skis you are free to ski steeps and powder faster with longer turns, which means people arent following the same tracks and building moguls. Just look at the skiing movies these days. There is no footage of moguls, and other than Johnny Mosley there are no popular mogul skiers. When was the last time you saw footage of Shane McConkey on moguls?

There is an ungroomed slope at my local field which would always get bumped up within a day of any new snow but in the last 5 years people are skiing it faster and it now develops a smooth choppy surface once tracked out. But you can still cruise at 30mph down it without being hammered.

It is just easier and more fun to arc long turns down a slope than try to master the technical and physically punishing disclipine of mogul skiing.
post #11 of 30
I DO!!

My local mound has 3 bump runs. Two of them are totally trashed from snowboarders as you described...very far apart and shaped like shelves. Every time you go by it there are boarders sliding down it sideways. The 3rd run is always teardrop shaped from the shaped skis and totally untimed from the lack of good skiers at this particular mound.

I don't understand why snowboarders can not be denied access to bump runs. Halfpipes and terrain parks were built with them in mind and the rest of the mountain is theirs. Just please, STAY OFF THE MOGUL RUNS! Have some respect.
post #12 of 30
I do miss bumps run.
Snowboarders have nothing to do with 'em bump being gone,
thought. Would people stop whining "snowboarders do this, snowboarders do that...", please?
People who wants to find easy, wide open and well groomed runs have!
Even if said run was a beautiful, difficult, bumped up, black one.
Being them skiers or boarders is the same.
Ah, the force of marketing.
So what happened? All runs groomed!
Now I've witnessed a little reverting in the trend.
Resorts here and there are letting bumps to form on one or two of their precious runs.
One resort "made the media" just for that (the nicest bumps in all Northern Italy was the title).
post #13 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by Matteo:
I do miss bumps run.
Snowboarders have nothing to do with 'em bump being gone,
thought. Would people stop whining "snowboarders do this, snowboarders do that...", please?
People who wants to find easy, wide open and well groomed runs have!
Even if said run was a beautiful, difficult, bumped up, black one.
Being them skiers or boarders is the same.
Ah, the force of marketing.
So what happened? All runs groomed!
Now I've witnessed a little reverting in the trend.
Resorts here and there are letting bumps to form on one or two of their precious runs.
One resort "made the media" just for that (the nicest bumps in all Northern Italy was the title).
When I stop seeing boarders scrape the bump runs into ruin with my own eyes, I will stop blaming them. But since I am WITNESSING this firsthand on a daily basis, I can lay blame on these two particular runs.

BTW, I have no issues whatsoever with "snowboarders". I do have issues with the 14 year old skate punk, disrespecting, boardsliders that are all over the place. There is a diffence between a true 'boarder and these kids.

[ February 20, 2003, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Taylormatt ]
post #14 of 30
The stupidty of the statement "snowboarders are ruining bump runs" is enough to make my ears bleed.

I can count the number of boarders on a bump run at a given time on one hand. I can't do the same with the number of skiers way out of their league, hacking their way down.

Too many factors contribute to mis-shaped bumps to ever attribute it to snowboarders (see Dave's post above).
post #15 of 30
Taylormatt, my point is that it doesn't really matter who is riding a run. If anyone meant to say that intermediate or beginners don't belong to a black run (or a bump one because they could ruin it), then we're back at the discussions
A request of novice skiers
and here
What is an expert skier
If someone consider himself/herself and expert, then he can handle the un-even bumps (because after all, bumps are formed
un-evenly and irregularly by people skiing, or do we want to ski on the Mogul competition run, where bumps are all equal and regular, i.e. groomed by a special machine?) and adapt his/her skiing to the terrain, isn't it?
My opinion is that what matters is what choice the resort management is taking to draw more visitors to their place.
During the late '80 and early '90, the trend was to allow anyone to ski down any slope (even a run which, by virtue of the bumps
would have been precluded to them)
Hence the decision came to systematically groom all runs
(here in Italy, even the black runs are groomed).
Too many people wanted to ski like the big "heroes" that they were watching on the telly (DH and GS, incidentally GS-like skis were the most sold at shops here), too many wanted to ski like Tomba and Compagnoni...
Hence the trend to groom flat all runs, and the bumps went away.
And this is what I WITNESSED.
Mind you, I do like to ski GS turns on steep runs, but I also like to ski some bumps, from time to time!
post #16 of 30
Matteo, if you could see the crap shelves (not bumps) with literally 30' of spacing between them...you would understand what I'm talking about. These are made by kids on boards sidesliding the steeps from one bump to the next to line up for the one last jump at the bottom of the run. So I ask, what's wrong with the dozens of jumps that are built for them in the terrain park that they must do this to our bump runs for that one lonely jump at the bottom?

It must be nice to ski where you guys do that you don't have to witness or deal with this. It's a problem where I ski and obviously where a few others ski as well. Because of this, I have no bump runs worth a crap anymore and I'm mad about it.
post #17 of 30
Has there been a change in the way "machine-made" bumps are made?

We had 2 feet of snow around New years (in Vermont) and by midday the whole mountain had turned into a bump run...it was the best ski day of my life!
post #18 of 30
Talormatt's in PA - I'm in MD. Out here, we DO have this problem. And it IS a problem for those of us that like a nice bump run.

My hill's noticed that it's a problem on their 3 expert trails, what with the boardsliders heelsliding down & stripping the snow, and taking the face off EVERY mogul on the field.

As of 2 weeks ago, they started "seeding" the mogul runs every few days. They seem to hold up much better, evenly spaced, and MUCH larger. Which seems to keep the boarders away. I like it so far...
post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by Llama:
The stupidty of the statement "snowboarders are ruining bump runs" is enough to make my ears bleed.

I can count the number of boarders on a bump run at a given time on one hand. I can't do the same with the number of skiers way out of their league, hacking their way down.

Too many factors contribute to mis-shaped bumps to ever attribute it to snowboarders (see Dave's post above).
I guess I'm stupid and your ears are bleeding, because I'm not the only one witnessing this problem. Thanks for that incredibly thought provoking feedback. Just because it doesn't happen on your hill doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere. It IS a big world you know.
post #20 of 30
[
As of 2 weeks ago, they started "seeding" the mogul runs every few days. They seem to hold up much better, evenly spaced, and MUCH larger. Which seems to keep the boarders away. I like it so far...[/QB][/quote]

How do they "seed" the runs?
post #21 of 30
They have gone to bump heaven courtesy of the Winch Cat, and the bulk of skiers and snowboarders who are intermediates.

The intermediate skier wants to ski the steeps but before the Winch Cat they could do so only if they were willing to ski the terrain as it was. Most stayed away. After the Winch Cat, the intermediates could ski newly groomed slopes in excess of 45 degrees. This seems to have had the following results: 1. the intermediates began to enjoy skiing the groomed steeps, 2. there was no reason for the intermediate to continue growing his or her ski skills. This resulted in the need for more and more groomed steeps. The result was the loss of most of the bump runs to groomed steeps.

The bump runs that remain are subject to skiers who are not familiar, or proficient in bump runs and the bumps suffer.

Mark
post #22 of 30
Quote:
How do they "seed" the runs?
Strategic placement of poles. Think race gates, except lots more and the skier or snowboarder is free to pass to the right or left. It works beautifully.
post #23 of 30
Thread Starter 
All great comments, but why don't resorts recognize this dillema and close a run or two to boarders. At a big resort, it wouldn't make a difference.

Any insight as to why they wouldn't do that? Anyone know a resort that has tried? It would be a great experiment to see whether its the shape skiis or the riders.
post #24 of 30
Part of it is where you ski. Get out of PA. There is no place here that grooms well or allows the bumps to build properly. Want bumps? Hunter or Vermont..actually if you are lucky Elk will let bumps build on Tunkhannock. I refuse to ski Blue for that reason. I was up at Sugerbush and MRG (granted no boarders there) but the bumps were perfect at the bush. IMO, a good boarder makes nice round bumps (as does good skiers).

If you want to get a beer someday and talk skiing IM me.
post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by ShiftyRider:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How do they "seed" the runs?
Strategic placement of poles. Think race gates, except lots more and the skier or snowboarder is free to pass to the right or left. It works beautifully.</font>[/quote]Makes sense, thanks.
post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
Yeah, PA bites unless there is a big storm. I rarely ski east anymore. PA could never close a trail to boarders. One trail is 20% of their mountain.

My comments were actually after 2 recent trips to Vail and to Whistler-Blackcomb. The bumps in Whistler bowl were so far apart, and elongated horizontally. They were skiiable, just at a peculiar rhythm. Vail seems to knock a lot of it down.

I am not even a huge mogul fan anymore. Its just kind of an observation. The comments above about longer, wider turns are true. I arc much more any more. The bumps hurt what is left of my knees and lower back.

On a warm afternoon, it's nice to remember the old rhythm.

-------------

One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
post #27 of 30
Phil, I'd love nothing more than to get out of PA. The skiing here blows : .

But, since work keeps me here as of now, I must deal with it. Heading to Steamboat next weekend to get some real skiing in. Hopefully we'll make it back to VT soon too. Vt is just too far for regular commutes though at roughly 10-11 hours. Seven Springs & Hidden Valley are 15 miles up the road and I can be there in 20 minutes or less driveway to lift line. It's not great, but it works for a few hours every weekend. Gotta feed the beast with whatever's available ya know? [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
I've given up on the 10 hour drive to Vermont. Airline prices have come down so far. I ran the numbers, and you can actually ski cheaper in Salt Lake, and get there quicker than most of VT.

Oh yeah, and the skiing isn't even comparable. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #29 of 30
Thank god we have shaped skis, short skis, boarders, teleskiers, fat skis, fat skiers and others to blame because I refuse to even consider the fact that my getting older has anything to do with my declining moguls skills. (Having a 21 year old son that can zipper line down any moguls on a pair of Pocket Rockets isn't helping my denial, though).

[ February 20, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Rio ]
post #30 of 30
Quote:
Originally posted by 420 days on snow:
I've given up on the 10 hour drive to Vermont. Airline prices have come down so far. I ran the numbers, and you can actually ski cheaper in Salt Lake, and get there quicker than most of VT.

Oh yeah, and the skiing isn't even comparable. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
IMO, Utah is some of the best skiing on earth and with the fares I agree, it is tough to pass up. But there is something about the Mad River Valley that keeps me coming back and I can get to "The barn" in 7:30.
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