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atomic ski edges

post #1 of 91
Thread Starter 
Hi guys
curious if any of u ever encountered this...

I bought brand new pair of atomic sx:11 skis (2005-2006 season).

After a couple of days of skiing i found that it was time to sharpen the edges.

I was a littly bit surprised that it took only a couple of days for the new skis for the edges to wear off.

What's worse is that now my edges last for only 2 -3 runs.

After that they get totally circled.

I have to mention that I'm a pretty agressive skier skiing at lake placid, whiteface.

It gets pretty rough at times, icy etc..
Still I cant beleive the edges are supposed to be tuned twice a day.


Any insights are very much appreciated.

Thanks
Dima
post #2 of 91
I have read that atomic edges are extremly hard metal and have a tendency to crack. I have not personnally had experience with this but someone will post as there are lots of Atomic fans on the board. Not sure if this would cause them to loose their edge quicker but maybe
post #3 of 91
I have had 5 pairs of atomics over the past few years (SL11, SL9, SX10, MEX, M10. I have never had any edge crack, or any other kind of damage for that matter. When freshly sharpened, atomics are my favorite brand. However, I have had the same experience as you. After a couple of days of skiing the edges are gone. This is on Tahoe snow where it is not as icy. They call 'em "Dura-edge" or something like that which really offends me. With all of their resources, I don't know why they don't address this. I ski mostly on Volkl - 1 or 2 tunes per season. Again, I like atomics, but they have the very, very weak edges.
post #4 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Hi.
Glad I'm not the only one noticing this.

I called Atomic and explained the situation but their reaction was that
"it's impossible because we have the hardest duraedges in the world" and all that marketing nonsense.

Anyway the lesson I learnt was that it was the last pair of Atomic skis I ever buy.

Meanwhile I'm trying to choose a different brand to replace my SX:11 and the main criteria is being the edges durability.

Would u guys recommend Fischer? I hear their edges last pretty good...

Anybody has any experience with Ficsher on icy eastern slopes?

Thanks a lot.
Regards
post #5 of 91
Could it be the tune, and not the edge material, that is causing the difference? IIRC, Atomic recommends a 3' side bevel, whereas a lot of other manufacturers still recommend 2' or less. A 3' side bevel gets dull a lot faster than a 2' bevel, although it also performs better at higher edge angles; when I was racing, I kept my race skis at 3'. I still prefer the way a 3' bevel skis, but I don't keep my skis at that angle anymore because I don't want to tune often enough to maintain a 3' bevel (although I've thought about it for my beer-league GS skis, which I usually tune after each day of use, which usually translates into every six to eight runs).
post #6 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Below's the response i got from an Atomic rep:


We use the hardest edge material in the ski industry, which was developed through our extensive success on the world cup over the last 12 years. My first question is what angle are you using to tune the side edge, and base edge. The skis come out of the factory with what we feel is the optimal edge bevel which is 3 degrees side, 1 degree base. Unless you have had a shop grind these back to 90 degrees then any attempt to sharpen them with different angle will result in an uneven edge and you will not have the ability to get a good edge. It is true that with this bevel the skis will become dull faster then if you maintain a 90 degree edge, however the 90 degree edge will never be as sharp or give you the best performance in a shaped ski. That said I cannot understand having to sharpen you ski more then once every 2 or 3 ski days which is typical for all brands to maintain performance. Also please keep in mind when maintaining your edge you should not be sharpening the base edge every time. In fact in most cases the base edge should only be sharpened when the base is ground as well, all that is needed to maintain the base edge is a medium or fine stone. Please let me know where you live and I can advise you on a shop that my be able to restore the factory tune on the ski, or a ski tech that might be able to shed some more light on what the problem is. Have you put a true bar to the ski? If you have any more questions please feel free to contact me.
post #7 of 91
I have owned at any one time between 25 & 30 pair fof current Atomic race, powder and all mountain skis. And many different modesl from many different model years over the last 8-9 years. And we have skied between 50 & 80 days a year almost exclusively on Atomic for that timeframe.

What you are saying has absolutley no basis in fact in any way shape or form.

Get your skis professionally tuned or at least have them looked at by a knowledgeable tuner.

by the way the rep is wrong. A 3 degree does not dull any faster then a 1 or 2 degree. that is a wife's tale!

YOU SHOULD NEVER SHARPEN, FILE OR TOUCH YOU BASE EDGE!!!!! Only deburr it with a stone flat against the base edge after sharpening or polishing your side edge.

All of Atomics are 1 & 3 (you always quote base bevel first) and we have no problem wwhatsoever with how long they stay sharp. And contrary to popular opinion, we get some very nasty ice 7 hard snow here in the great Pacific Northwest. it thws and refreezes fairly regularly
!
post #8 of 91
FWIW, I'm on my 4th pair of Atomics in the last 6 years (inc. SX11's). I haven't seen anything unusual with the edges that would be unique to Atomic. My two pairs of Fischers (RX8 and WC SC) require sharpening at about the same intervals.
post #9 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Thanks for the replies guys.

So any idea then as to why the edges are getting destroyed after a couple of runs?

I do have them tuned at an Atomic certified ski shop.

Also for a moment I thought it may have something to do with my technique but my previous pair of Volkl supersport 5* held for at least 4 -5 days before i had to have them tuned.

Say i do take the skis to a different shop for tuning.
Would it possibly make any difference?

It looks like the edges get rounded so i dont see how it may change...

thanks
regards
post #10 of 91
A differnt shop can make the differnce, but be sure to talk to the tuner, not the pimple faced kid behind the counter. Ask them about the recomended bevels and if they don't say 1, 3 for atomic turn around and walk away.
post #11 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
. And contrary to popular opinion, we get some very nasty ice 7 hard snow here in the great Pacific Northwest. it thws and refreezes fairly regularly
!
I think u would agree with me that natural ice doesnt pose as much threat to the ski edges as the ice an eastern slope is covered with after 2pm.

U should see whiteface (lake placid, NY) at the end of the day

The ice formed by skiers is much tougher and is really bad on the edges.

Personally I dont tune my skis for weeks when skiing in whistler or other western slopes for the matter.
post #12 of 91
Have owned mostly atomics all my ski life and never had such a problem. In fact, the atomics i have now hold a tune longer than the dynastars i have that are tuned 1/2 instead of 1/3 like the atomics are. If you are seriously getting ruined edges after 2-3 runs, maybe you should take them in to the best race tuner/geek you can find and have them take a look at the edges carefully. Maybe you got a defective pair. Or talk to the atomic folks directly - not just the rep. This is not a general problem with atomic skis and indicates something wrong with that pair. If you bought them at a shop, ask the shop to lend you a demo pair for a day and see if it happens to them. If those skis don't lose their tune in two runs, you have an argument with atomic that it's something wrong with your particular skis and they may replace them.
post #13 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Thing is I bought mine on ebay new from a non-authorized atomic dealer.

Atomic doesnt honor the warranty unless u buy your skis from an authorized dealer.

They told me that plain and simple...
post #14 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkazhdan View Post
U should see whiteface (lake placid, NY) at the end of the day
I have done. On Atomics. They should be able to dice that stuff up like a soft white onion. (unless the skier's in the back seat, in which case. . .)

Your symptoms are consistent with someone attempting to make a 1/1 edge out of a 1/3.

That sort of mistake just once could have caused subsequent errors and incomplete jobs (particularly if more edge material needs to be exposed with a skyver, say).
post #15 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkazhdan View Post
Thing is I bought mine on ebay new from a non-authorized atomic dealer.

Atomic doesnt honor the warranty unless u buy your skis from an authorized dealer.

They told me that plain and simple...
so sorry. maybe they actually are defective and that's why they ended up there....

let's hope it's the bevels. try taking them and having a professional give them a full-full tune resetting bevels, grinding bases, etc. Go to a really good specialty place and hope that works. Good luck!
post #16 of 91
I do not doubt your sincerity or accuracy Dima and certainly hope this problem can be solved for you. But I’m having a hard time understanding your description of “rounding” as it goes against anything I have experienced with an edge regardless of manufacture. Outside of making turns on rock face or sand paper, the amount of edge loss or edge compression and the frequency to which you say you need to tune as a non racer seems outrageous IMO...unless you picked up the Atomic Aluminum edge "lets have fun with a consumer" ski.:

I agree with Atomicman (although I’m not quite as dogmatic about the base edge) as he knows his stuff. Comprex also offers the best symptomatic find regarding making a 1:1 out of a 1:3, whereas, the base bevel change outcome you describe as "rounding".

However, regardless of above, still some clarifying questions I find myself asking after reading your post: Did you carefully feel and examine the new ski edges out of the wrapper? Did you perform the first tune? Are you solidly experienced in tuning base and side edge? What is your method of de-burr and polishing your edges post filing? Define rounding. Is the “rounding” you experience consistent tip to tail? Does this “rounding” occur on both inside and outside edge?...
post #17 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
However, regardless of above, still some clarifying questions I find myself asking after reading your post: Did you carefully feel and examine the new ski edges out of the wrapper?

Yep i did. As I mentioned for the first 3 -4 days they performed awesome,
felt like they held on hardest ice like on rails, i have to give them that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
Did you perform the first tune?
I didnt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
Are you solidly experienced in tuning base and side edge? What is your method of de-burr and polishing your edges post filing?
I dont do it myself. I had them sharpened at an Atomic certified ski shop.
I confirmed they sharpen them at 1 -3' and use dual stone sharpening machine as per Atomoc's standards.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDenver View Post
Define rounding. Is the “rounding” you experience consistent tip to tail? Does this “rounding” occur on both inside and outside edge?...
By "rounding" I mean that the edges are cut. They are sort of turned inside out. The edges are mostly destroyed in under the boots area.
Head and tail seem to be much better but as i understand that's the way it normally works...

Mostly on inside edge, but i swap them frequently.
post #18 of 91
Dima, I agree with the number of folks above regarding the first tune. And normally I would say at minimum get those skis back into the shop, get behind the counter and see the lead tech and carefully examine the edges discussing your concerns and what you have learned to date. Clearly the objective would be to get the Atomics properly recalibrated in the hands of the best tech.

FWIW, I don’t think this is solving a damn thing. It doesn’t address the root cause of the accelerated decomposition of your brand new factory edges as you describe. Something may have been wrong from the get go. Skiing a couple of days on conditions normal for your area should not then become an eternal damnation of repeated edge tunes for you. Beveling, retune etc maybe nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig with this particular pair. Let Atomic deal with this (warrantee) problem and you spend the time skiing on new sticks. Ultimately Atomic wishes you to be skiing and promoting their line. Besides, your time is too important to deal with metallurgical oddities.:
post #19 of 91
It is my understanding, that the snowpack back there is extremely thin! What is the rock exposure situation back there? When you describe the ski under the boot area, sounds to me like your skis are coming in contact with something very hard!!! :

rocks maybe?? :

It is the only logical cause! Even if there are smal rocks floating in the snow 9they don't have to be anchored in the ground, they will chew your edges up. We have had a few very low snow years around here and the tuniing shops absolutly loved it!
post #20 of 91
Thread Starter 

atomic ski edges

Thanks Don.

Unfortunately Atomic doesnt honor warranty unless u buy from an atomic authorized dealer

I think I'll be best off at this point of time if i sell the skis (they still will be just fine for a beginner/western type skier) and stay away from Atomic products

Thanks and appreciate the advise.

Regards
Dima
post #21 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkazhdan View Post
Thanks Don.

Unfortunately Atomic doesnt honor warranty unless u buy from an atomic authorized dealer

I think I'll be best off at this point of time if i sell the skis (they still will be just fine for a beginner/western type skier) and stay away from Atomic products

Thanks and appreciate the advise.

Regards
Dima
#1) The SX11 supercross is not a ski for a beginner. :

#2) You are going to sell what you believe are defective skis to some unsuspecting poor bastard.

#3) You cheap out and buy skis off of ebay and expect the manufacturer to warranty them. :

#4) I don't beleive you have a warranty problem in the first place:

#5) Maybe Atomic products need to stay away from you??? :
post #22 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The SX11 supercross is not a ski for a beginner. :
True. But a beginner doesnt make use of the edges. That was the point
Quote:

#2) You are going to sell what you believe are defective skis to some unsuspecting poor bastard.
Dont worry, I wont sell the skis to an "unsuspecting" person, i'll point they have a problem or rather I had a problem with them.



Quote:
#3) You cheap out and buy skis off of ebay and expect the manufacturer to warranty them. :
So u deny me right to shop around for a good deal? U'd rather I buy from an authorized dealer so they'll make double profit on me? Come to your senses man...



Quote:
#4) I don't beleive you have a warranty problem in the first place:
And what would be the reason for this conclusion? The fact that u've owned 40 pairs of Atomic and so on?


Quote:
#5) Maybe Atomic products need to stay away from you??? :
do u work for them or something? All I say is that they do make deffective products and refuse to honor warranty...
I had my bindings exchanged by Volks at one point of time.
No questions asked, mind u.
post #23 of 91
where did they tune them? did they notice any defects? i guess they weren't a good deal after all if the guy didn't stand behind them.

Atomics rip too bad for you experience.
post #24 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifreeordie View Post
where did they tune them? did they notice any defects? i guess they weren't a good deal after all if the guy didn't stand behind them.

Atomics rip too bad for you experience.

As I mentioned there were no defects when i bought them. They came new in plastic and worked perfectly well for the first 2-3 days.

The guy i bought them from just doesnt happen to be an atomic authorized dealer, that's all
post #25 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkazhdan View Post
Quote:
True. But a beginner doesnt make use of the edges. That was the point
Bogus answer!

Quote:
Dont worry, I wont sell the skis to an "unsuspecting" person, i'll point they have a problem or rather I had a problem with them.
First reasonable thing you've said!! Except that, who in their right mind is going to buy some screwed known to be defective skis unless you give them away. So then i guess ebay was not such a bargain, huh????




Quote:
So u deny me right to shop around for a good deal? U'd rather I buy from an authorized dealer so they'll make double profit on me? Come to your senses man...
Well who got the short end of the stick?? Had you purchased at a real dealer, you'd be getting new skis right now (Maybe) Double profit, obviously you know nothing about running a business!

Let's see, Taxes, insurance, rent, providing jobs to the community, payroll, advertising, utilities, personalized knowledable service, THE COST of WARRANTY REPLACEMENT (Manufacturer's cost of course)

Not much profit in ski hardware. so on a $1,000 ski & binding that cost the retailier $500.00 you think they put that $500 GROSS profit in their pocket? C'mon man come to your senses!



Quote:
And what would be the reason for this conclusion? The fact that u've owned 40 pairs of Atomic and so on?
At least 40 pairs probably more of almost every conceivable model including SX11's. A pair of my SX11's bent & guess what, Mr. Deal Hunter, they gave me a new pair no questions asked!!!



do u work for them or something? All I say is that they do make deffective products and refuse to honor warranty...
I had my bindings exchanged by Volks at one point of time.
No questions asked, mind u.
I do not work for Atomic. I also own various Head and Stocklis and skied on Volkl for 20 years of the 43 years i've skied and have never on all the skis i've owned since 1963 had a problem with any brand of ski with the edges unless i skied over a rock!!!!

A defective binding is realtively easy to prove. I don't think you can prove your edges mysteriously become dull for no apparant reason.
post #26 of 91
Scissoring the skiis apart when you pull them out of the rack can dull your edges too. So can the scissoring if it happens in you roof-box. Use two straps, shovel and tail to avoid that problem.
post #27 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Scissoring the skiis apart when you pull them out of the rack can dull your edges too. So can the scissoring if it happens in you roof-box. Use two straps, shovel and tail to avoid that problem.
Much too logical an explanation

Plus he says it happens after 2 or 3 runs (skiing on rock infested snow, is my guess : )
post #28 of 91
Maybe what he considers to be a sharp edge is much sharper than normal. An improperly finished ski edge will be like a razor, whereas one that is done right will not be able to Ginsu the snow, or your hands for that matter. A sharp burr might be mistakenly considered to be a good sharp edge.
post #29 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJguy View Post
Maybe what he considers to be a sharp edge is much sharper than normal. An improperly finished ski edge will be like a razor, whereas one that is done right will not be able to Ginsu the snow, or your hands for that matter. A sharp burr might be mistakenly considered to be a good sharp edge.
As goofy as his posts have been : I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is complaining because of the ski's performance not necessarily how the edge feels to the hand. : But who knows??? He says his edges mysteriously get round???
post #30 of 91

Do I hear a $20 shipped?

I think these should be an Epicski auction item.
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