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Effective Transitions - Page 4

post #91 of 114
With respect to turn initiation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HH FROM www.realskiers.com
The stationary static counter movements I am showing should happen before you feel the downward side movement to the skis, with the upper body. If you aren’t getting the actual static counter balance before the downward part, you are losing capability for angles that could later develop in the arc. You will lose a large part of the turn’s potential or at least a high level expert carving turn capability.
It is clear to me that those movements in the static drill ought to happen first.
post #92 of 114
Does the body actually move uphill? Or does it simply move downhill slower than the rest of the body? What happens to the energy from the previous turn when you move uphill?
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Does the body actually move uphill? Or does it simply move downhill slower than the rest of the body? What happens to the energy from the previous turn when you move uphill?
I would say that since we do not allways make our transitions across the hill we cannot talk about bringing our shoulders uphill or not. I would say that when our hipps move into the turn as a result of tipping, creating inclination, we counter balance by bringing our upper body towards the outside (negative movement ) creating angulation, what really happens is that our shoulders at the topmost remains in the same place but are most likely also displaced and offcet into the turn.

In my demo lesson # one, wedge to parallel, (you may remember) I shifted my weight to my outside ski to initiate the turn by leaning towards the outside with my upper body and shoulders leving my hipps in the same spot. In this case angulation was created at the top of the turn and since I was skiing across the hill my shoulders actually moved uphill but in a dynamic situation the inlination and angulation happens simultaniously and shoulders are actually following the hips downhill but slower.

IMO the energy from the previous turn is used to get you unweighted or then it could be evened out by down-unweighting. A modern cross under actually tells us that our skis cross under us and that our body moves the other way, shoulders included.
post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It is clear to me that those movements in the static drill ought to happen first.
HH wrote that the counter movements should happen before you FEEL the downward movement. So, when do you we start feeling the downward movement? I would guess that the feeling would start in conjunction with or immediately after tipping. I'll need to play with it to answer that for myself.
post #95 of 114
Why not wait for Harb_lust to post himself?
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
HH wrote that the counter movements should happen before you FEEL the downward movement. So, when do you we start feeling the downward movement? I would guess that the feeling would start in conjunction with or immediately after tipping. I'll need to play with it to answer that for myself.
I don't see how FEEL changes anything -- you should feel it when it is happening.

It's all about the kinetic chain. Feet tip, both knees follow, then hips and upper body move inside. Note the bolding below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HH from www.realskiers.com
The stationary static counter movements I am showing should happen before you feel the downward side movement to the skis, with the upper body. If you aren’t getting the actual static counter balance before the downward part,you are losing capability for angles that could later develop in the arc. You will lose a large part of the turn’s potential or at least a high level expert carving turn capability.
This "counterbalance" is an advanced move. It differs from tipping to little toe edge allowing downhill leg to produce the "O-frame", then dragging hips across skis, and finally uphill knee into the turn. It is not that sequential. I read the sentence that contains the bolding to mean "THE ACTUAL STATIC COUNTER BALANCE " happens "BEFORE THE DOWNWARD PART". I see no other way to read it.
post #97 of 114
I read it as the counter balancing needs to start before the skis/boots go through flat and onto the downhill edges. How much before is going to depend upon the steepness of the ramp/snow, but the idea is be able to stay in balance as the skis/boots release (yah, I know the boots won't release on the carpeted ramp....).
post #98 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
I read it as the counter balancing needs to start before the skis/boots go through flat and onto the downhill edges.
This is correct.
post #99 of 114
I read it as cb before you feel the movement of the upperbody downhill.

Afterall, the movement onto your edges is necessary to cb. The edges will switch as a result of the counterbalance.

It's much clearer just to say "use knee angulation to show the base of skiis uphill prior to initiation", and state that "balance can get tricky -- you'll have to do something special to stay over the skiis".

Namely counterbalance.
post #100 of 114
Max, I assume you are talking about the page 30 middle picture. If so, he actually is counterbalancing, but it's very slight.
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The edges will switch as a result of the counterbalance.
Edges switch as a result of tipping. Counter Balance is a side to side tilting of the upper body at the waist.
post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesB View Post
Max, I assume you are talking about the page 30 middle picture. If so, he actually is counterbalancing, but it's very slight.
Yeah, it makes sense and depends on where you are doing the static drills. If you are doing it on a slope then you'll have to be counter balanced at flat or you'll fall tip over. If you are doing it on a flat area (like my office floor) then there isn't any need to counter balance. That's why the tipping board is useful.
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Edges switch as a result of tipping.
Tipping with what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
Counter Balance is a side to side tilting of the upper body at the waist.
That's not what HH is doing in his demonstration of counter balance.
post #104 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Tipping with what?
In PMTS you tip the skis from foot and ankle movements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
That's not what HH is doing in his demonstration of counter balance.
Actually it is what he is demonstrating. As I already said, you keep focusing on the knees which he doesn't even mention.

Quote from page 119 of Essentials:

"Counterbalancing is side-to-side tilting of the upper body at the waist or belt line."
post #105 of 114
Does page 119 suggest that knee angulation is NOT involved in creating the "side to side tilting of the upper body"? HH is clear on his web site, he says you need to visit such a position when you ski, and bluntly calls that counter balance. If that position of knee angulation is a transitory one on the way to counter balance, that's fine by me.

I focus on the knees, because that's what it going on in the demo, and he says it must happen, else you can lose out on higher edge angles.

The classical term for what he is showing in the demo is knee angulation. Change the words, focus on balance, dress it up as you wish. It's still knee angulation - the difference is how it is being taught, and the aspect of the move upon which you focus. So HH calls it "counter balance", or perhaps as you suggest, a precursor to counter balance. Good for him. He can call it what he wants. It is still knee angulation.

I don't understand why such resistance to casting the move in common language. Does it somehow take the shine off the apple?
post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Does page 119 suggest that knee angulation is NOT involved in creating the "side to side tilting of the upper body"? HH is clear on his web site, he says you need to visit such a position when you ski, and bluntly calls that counter balance.
Counterbalancing is covered in detail in the book (if you are interested in how HH teaches it I'd suggest taking a look at the book). It has nothing to do with the knees.

In an earlier post (same thread) HH says:

"My upper body is counter balancing to keep from falling over."
post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
In an earlier post (same thread) HH says:

"My upper body is counter balancing to keep from falling over."
The upper body does nothing -- it is not the item that is balancing, it is the item being balanced.

All balancing movements are performed by the legs. The counter balance is actively being maintained by the legs. Specifically by knee angulation.

HH has blessed the application of knee angulation at some specific moments to support very specific intents. To differentiate the good application from the bad, he's renamed it. That's a fine idea. I'm not saying that anything is wrong with that at all. In fact, he is right.

If you are going to use knee angulation, you must use it when the pressures are low.

I've got nothing else to add.

Good luck and good skiing!
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The upper body does nothing -- it is not the item that is balancing, it is the item being balanced.
What you do with your own skiing I cannot say. What we learn in PMTS I can respond to. In PMTS counter balance is the side to side tilting of the upper body. Since I use this movement when I ski I can say without question that my upper body most definitely does something and its a fairly strong contracting of the oblique muscles when doing deep carves.
post #109 of 114
Whatever.
post #110 of 114
Max, BigE,

I think you're both right. I went to my first PMTS camp this year and have now read the new book. It took me some mental effort to square what Harald and the other coaches were saying about counterbalancing with the way I'd beeing thinking about my skiing. Previously my understanding of upper body movements came mostly from Ron Le Master's "The Skier's Edge".

I don't think either of you will disagree that in order to have your skis hold their edges, your centre of mass must be further towards the outside of the turn than it would be if you simply banked your weight into each turn. Harald calls the movement necessary to do this "counterbalancing". In PMTS, students are coached to make these movements by crunching their lateral obliques, or by reaching down with the outside hand to touch the boots.

I found this approach unusual. The range of motion you can get from your lateral obliques is actually quite small, and it happens reltaively high up compared to your knees or hips. Also, especially if you are a bit chubby, or female, a good deal of your mass is below your lateral obliques and can't be moved by them. You can see that for yourself if you stand, hold your hips and kness straight and try to bend as far as possible from side to side. I think Ron Le Master says this directly in his book.

For this reason, all the other ski coaching I've come across focuses on "angulation" at either the knees or hips. By rotating your knees inwards and bending them, you can move your CM appropriately. Similarly, by facing outside the turn and bending your hips forwards, you do something similar. Different people use knee and hip angulation differently because they have different degrees of joint flexibility and different distributions of weight.

As BigE has noticed, though, when the PMTS coaches demonstrate counterbalancing they show a good deal of angulation, at both knees and hips. This doesn't entirely jibe with all the talk about lateral oblique crunches, although I'm sure that if you pointed it out to them they would agree that these movements are necessary. I'm not sure whether knees and hip angulation are meant to result from tipping of the inside foot as the foot reaches the limit of its range of motion, or whether they're meant to result from the movement of the lateral obliques as they reach their limit.

I suppose it doesn't matter, and I suppose its consistent with the PMTS approach of specifying only simple movements and letting the others emerge as a consequence, but I'm not sure the simplification in this case was the best possible. Angulation is all mixed up in many skiers minds with old-fashioned and often incorrect ideas about counter-rotation, so there's no doubt some simplification was necessary.
post #111 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kinahan View Post
I found this approach unusual. The range of motion you can get from your lateral obliques is actually quite small, and it happens reltaively high up compared to your knees or hips.
Counter balance isn't done alone. Its combined with counter acting movements which allows you to recruit the abdominal muscles to help with the counter balance movement.
post #112 of 114
We've not even begun to dissect counteraction. What gives?

I'm giving an honest unbiased effort to turn the language of PMTS into terms that others might understand. Max, do you refuse to acknowledge that a description of these moves couched in standard terminology may be accurate? It honestly sounds like you are desperately holding onto a set of terms and trying to dodge a bullet.

You say potahto, I say potayto. It's still a potato isn't it?

Please don't take offense. There is none intended.
post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'm giving an honest unbiased effort to turn the language of PMTS into terms that others might understand. Max, do you refuse to acknowledge that a description of these moves couched in standard terminology may be accurate?
BigE, I know you are only trying to clarify. Its just that what you are saying does not mesh with what is taught in the books and in camps/lessons. Counter Balance and Counter Acting movements in PMTS are for the upper body (pelvis and up). As a PMTS skier I have never been taught to knee angulate as you keep suggesting. If you doubt this grab a copy of Essentials and flip to page 119 and start reading. You'll see its all about the torso. The PMTS theory is that you need to do something to keep the upper body balanced over tipped feet. That something is crunching the oblique muscles which are over the new outside ski.
post #114 of 114
Thanks for understanding max. It's late, I'm off to bed soon. I'd love to continue this later.

Cheers!
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